Post ATtSL7C6sROdfy0Lsu by clive@saturation.social
(DIR) More posts by clive@saturation.social
(DIR) Post #ATsqEmjaEoESDyDT7Y by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T19:31:51Z
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An interesting hypothesis for why American kids are reading less books for pleasure these days:The educational system has taught them to associate "reading" with "relentlessly picking apart a text, paragraph by paragraph"There's so little joy in the reading they do in school -- so why in hell would they subject themselves to that *outside* of the classroomThe piece, in the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archive/2023/03/children-reading-books-english-middle-grade/673457/
(DIR) Post #ATsqahjZVciV5Tf9HM by colorblindcowboy@mastodon.art
2023-03-22T19:36:30Z
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@clive I'll be interested to read this. Tho we did the same sort of relentless picking apart when I was in school in the '90s.I can't help think tho that a lot of it is heavy competition from quick-dopamine-response technology.
(DIR) Post #ATsqyWNJORWCo9bj8q by coreytrina@sfba.social
2023-03-22T19:40:49Z
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@clive Speaking as a retired teacher, "the educational system" has been responding the relentless pressure of testing, testing, testing, and more testing that evaluates reading on the ability to pick apart a text, paragraph by paragraph. If the public could see the kind of questions 3rd, 4th, and 5th graders are required to answer, one after the other after the other, during days of testing, they would be appalled. The amount of money that goes to the testing companies....also appalling.
(DIR) Post #ATsrUtvPN2Jh75znQe by Fragglemuppet@fandom.ink
2023-03-22T19:46:39Z
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@clive I had that problem for such a very long time. As a kid I used to love to read. Did it all the time! Then high school and college ruined me for a good 10 years or more. It was only my mom's friend buying me a book on Audible that slowly got me back into it.For me it wasn't even that kind of breakdown and dry analysis. It was more the selection of books and stories we had to read were mostly either dull, depressing or both, I forgot books could actually be fun!
(DIR) Post #ATsrwnAQ5cfMGLJhNA by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T19:51:43Z
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@coreytrina Yep yep, that sounds exactly rightMy kids were in elementary school not long ago here in NYC, when teach to the test mania was on its recent riseJust *wrecked* things for teachers
(DIR) Post #ATssN2YnTrttX6Edkm by MissConstrue@mefi.social
2023-03-22T19:56:16Z
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@clive I'm so glad I taught my kid to read before she started school. And what was so infuriating once she was in middle and high school, was that teachers often didn't understand or had read the book assigned. I cannot tell you how many times I had to go up to the school because the teacher had seen the movie, but not read the book, and would grade my kid down because she actually read the book. I had to go all the way up to the administrator of the district about “Les Misérables”, which is based on the June Rebellion of 1832 AND NOT THE FRENCH REVOLUTION dammit! My kid read the book in French, did her entire term project on it, and this teacher was going to fail her because she'd seen the musical and was absolutely convinced that my kid was wrong.
(DIR) Post #ATssY4aCIjRQzW9Pto by colorblindcowboy@mastodon.art
2023-03-22T19:57:01Z
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@clive Interesting article. I'm sure this is a big culprit, tho I think the role of screens is underplayed — even if numbers were dropping since 1984 (before all kids had cell phones), we have to acknowledge that TVs were getting more ubiquitous, video game systems were coming into homes, and kids programming was hugely expanding with cable television. Also the increased prevalence of ADHD, OCD, dyslexia, and other mental challenges that can make reading unpleasant.
(DIR) Post #ATsszMYxYloAZeaJsW by Optional@dice.camp
2023-03-22T20:03:21Z
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@clive Precisely the "picking apart a text" is what's gotten me back into reading (though I'm neither American nor a kid).
(DIR) Post #ATsto75Krj0JL5vb7I by clew@octodon.social
2023-03-22T20:12:28Z
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There are communities of fan reading that do the same picky reading, imo. Learned from school, adapted from school, is enjoyable _after_ you love literature, ?? @clive
(DIR) Post #ATsvrXA6ZIrQzauxLU by fncll@social.coop
2023-03-22T20:35:15Z
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@clive Isn't this one of the most common hypotheses? It's folk wisdom among pretty much everyone I know, and includes the unfortunate results of higher education core courses too.
(DIR) Post #ATsyEVx5QuEToBujku by nikres@shakedown.social
2023-03-22T21:02:09Z
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@clive I realize they’re in the minority, but both of my kids (10 & 13) love to read, and they read (unassigned) books at home almost daily, sometimes to where I have to ask them to put the book down.
(DIR) Post #ATt1XKhDo248GP9sae by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T21:39:08Z
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@MissConstrue Holy smokes, that is *really* bad!
(DIR) Post #ATt1dumeXupvvOpyhU by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T21:39:33Z
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@colorblindcowboy Yep, those are all undoubtedly big culprits too!
(DIR) Post #ATt1lkiBsS2X0IUHDc by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T21:41:16Z
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@Optional The truth is I too enjoyed the picking apart when I was kid, as I do as an adult!Good critical reading is exhilarating But the way they do it in elementary and middle schools these days has an absolutely bloodless, leaden quality
(DIR) Post #ATt1saJivGOynCIiwq by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T21:42:11Z
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@clew Yep, absolutelyIf kids already love books then deep exegesis is easier and goes furtherBut you gotta cultivate the love first
(DIR) Post #ATt265ELIcQcQtDkGW by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T21:43:01Z
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@fncll Yeah, I think you're right
(DIR) Post #ATt2C2zwVml1FNKTBo by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T21:42:30Z
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@hans The phones really don't help!
(DIR) Post #ATt2Wl4yKRi7knYcIC by jason@logoff.website
2023-03-22T21:45:44Z
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@clive is this new? I graduated in 04 and “reading is a test you can fail if you don’t see the same arbitrary interpretation as your teacher does” was definitely the majority of what we did.
(DIR) Post #ATt3jaRNIJ2kTeiVlY by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T22:03:49Z
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@jason I doubt it's entirely new -- few things in education are!But the sheer paragraph-by-paragraph granularity of exegesis seems to have metastasized; from my admitted narrow view of the middle school and high school system, kids seem to read far fewer books than they did even 20 years ago, because the curriculum has them dilating on every single page for soooooo long
(DIR) Post #ATt4olo4YwyB8AMwtM by MissConstrue@mefi.social
2023-03-22T22:15:54Z
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@clive Yeah. We had problems like this all the way through school. And we live in one of the better school districts. It was infuriating. If there had been a single school within an hour's drive that wasn't a religious school that believed dinosaurs were just a joke God played on archeologists, I wouldn't have sent her to public school. We really got fooled by the ratings when we moved here.
(DIR) Post #ATtAzYFbu28Vzxm2ds by jason@logoff.website
2023-03-22T23:25:02Z
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@clive actually yeah that sort of scans for my 4th grader’s experience. I don’t pay super close attention but I am struck by how long it’ll be and I discover they’re still doing the same book.OTOH he doesn’t have homework and I think that’s far healthier, and he reads like a demon for fun/Accelerated Reader, so, no complaints here yet.
(DIR) Post #ATtDKFG9uFzD5W1eU4 by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T23:51:17Z
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@jason That's great! Good he's found stuff he loves to read on his own -- that's a salve for the dullness of school reading instruction
(DIR) Post #ATtDQdnrZCF6wiq9zs by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-22T23:51:40Z
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@MissConstrue Ach, damn
(DIR) Post #ATtEugW88m3e0NR5Bg by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-23T00:06:44Z
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@nikres That's awesome!
(DIR) Post #ATtF3wt0eNQ5NYYSXY by shoemaker@mastodon.social
2023-03-23T00:09:28Z
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@clive My 16-year-old son and I have reached the same conclusion. I’d also add the assigned genres to the equation: my kid would much rather read good sci-fi and other fiction, but he’s assigned non-fiction books that have sucked the joy out of reading.
(DIR) Post #ATtGnGeu5DpJgh89MO by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-23T00:30:10Z
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@shoemaker Yeah, that's not good!
(DIR) Post #ATtMHrehau18tCRfJw by TJWilson@mastodon.social
2023-03-23T01:31:25Z
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@clive Just read this article, and as an ELA teacher, this kind of thing has been around for a long while. I think Kelly Gallagher captured it well in his book *Readicide*, which is 14 years old. There’s even a trend of pleasure reading dropping as life gets more complex in the latter half of elementary school and on into the middle school years. When they get to high school, where I am, sometimes students are very anti-reading. So many factors involved though; so many things to say about this.
(DIR) Post #ATtMQMIxWal8GNKF60 by hornblower@mastodon.world
2023-03-23T01:32:27Z
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@clive This isn't new, the over testing is.
(DIR) Post #ATtSL7C6sROdfy0Lsu by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-23T02:39:31Z
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@TJWilson Yeah, this is really a classically multifaceted problem ...No *single* driver, lots of interlocking problems that grew over decades and decades
(DIR) Post #ATuL83wd8vNvJNYMOO by Optional@dice.camp
2023-03-23T12:53:26Z
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@clive Finally read the article (it was paywalled on my phone).I agree that the education system and focus on testing sucks. But I think her view through the lens of books is quite narrow. How is "The love of [..] storytelling being lost"? How is it the school's job to foster a love of reading?And what's so special about books? The last paragraph says it's experiencing a narrative journey, but books aren't the only medium to provide that.
(DIR) Post #ATuT6nN64iupFqq6cq by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-23T14:22:22Z
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@Optional True indeed about there being many other vehicles for narrative these days
(DIR) Post #ATxdlhSXPMB8v9rP5U by eyebee@mstdn.social
2023-03-25T03:06:24Z
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@clive I started to lean to read before I went to school, so I already had the habit.
(DIR) Post #ATyNb6PAuppyzkAjSK by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-25T11:39:02Z
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@eyebee Perfect!
(DIR) Post #AU2vALTWx19mzPShRw by GregStolze@mastodon.social
2023-03-27T16:14:53Z
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@clive Dude, have you even seen the reading lists?Damn near every book both my kids were assigned in high school and junior high were STONE COLD BUMMERS. Hey kids, reading is fun! Remember when you read about the Holocaust? About depression? About that kid who died from cancer? A book does not have to be depressing to be serious, but no one wants to read the FUN Shakespeare plays because they have too many pussy jokes.High school lit classes are a course of aversion therapy.
(DIR) Post #AU30Q4pR6tC9lU1qrY by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-27T17:13:43Z
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@GregStolze Yeah, I know, sighPersonally I'm astonished that my kids never got Macbeth in high schoolThat is the most black-metal of Shakespeare's plays, a total blastIt's also quite -- weirdly -- funny, in the final two acts, when Macbeth is just flat out UN-RAVELLING and all his court members and underlings are exchanging nervous sideglances about their flipped-out boss
(DIR) Post #AU31vy5JopdU4PEEHA by GregStolze@mastodon.social
2023-03-27T17:30:42Z
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@clive Why oh why would authority figures hesitate to teach about shitty authority figures?
(DIR) Post #AU34Bd3xwea1PiBuq0 by avram@wandering.shop
2023-03-27T17:55:59Z
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@clive @GregStolze And how are they gonna understand Lord of the Rings if they aren’t familiar with Macbeth?
(DIR) Post #AU34KQDj3xDUBnwuDQ by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-27T17:57:36Z
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@GregStolze Lol
(DIR) Post #AU34XjJbNd7LAw2kPg by clive@saturation.social
2023-03-27T17:58:17Z
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@GregStolze @avram And Beowulf!