Post ATUbcOmHtWT9eKCkF6 by tenet@defcon.social
(DIR) More posts by tenet@defcon.social
(DIR) Post #ATUR3IumhZwvmxo1ZY by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-03-11T00:42:42Z
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Yes, I know the Mastodon Scolds will yell at me for mentioning this, but the more I use this, the more I miss having usable search and quote-post features.Yes, I've heard the arguments against them, and am aware of the kludgy workarounds. And, if it helps, I acknowledge that wanting these features is evidence of my bad character. But I'm increasingly convinced that the absence of search and QT severely limits the usefulness of the Mastodon/Fediverse.
(DIR) Post #ATUR3JacC3PTshNQm0 by alex@cybervillains.com
2023-03-11T00:57:46Z
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@mattblaze Hard agree.
(DIR) Post #ATURnk6hvx8dReWhMW by ted@an.errant.cloud
2023-03-11T01:06:11Z
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@alex @mattblaze the box in the corner either needs to work or needs to say something other than "search"
(DIR) Post #ATUSji21oAt3ntyi2a by tragiccommons@infosec.exchange
2023-03-11T01:16:40Z
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@alex @mattblaze The hard core ActivityPub evangelists would suggest you rewrite that as #HardAgree (as if that means something).
(DIR) Post #ATUbcNDVhL3YoAvSOe by alienghic@octodon.social
2023-03-11T00:50:31Z
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@mattblaze I found the review blog post on quote tweets interesting.https://absolutelymaybe.plos.org/2023/01/12/quote-tweeting-over-30-studies-dispel-some-myths/and I think it suggests that governance is hard, and that different people can want different and mutually contradictory things.
(DIR) Post #ATUbcNnJYDhEbDg3Ci by tenet@defcon.social
2023-03-11T00:54:16Z
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@alienghic @mattblaze How is a "quote tweet" different from boosting and then just typing something? People get bent over twitter, not understanding that there were literal government agencies tasked with pissing people off on there. But nah, it's the quote feature that's been a staple of every form of social media since the days of mailing lists and UseNet.
(DIR) Post #ATUbcOKdYKLqGZGf8y by alienghic@octodon.social
2023-03-11T01:05:18Z
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@tenet @mattblaze Mostly you're guaranteed to see the boosters comment..So a QT basically looks like<comment><embedded rendering of source>(With needing to click through to see the original context)Where as boost then reply looks like<post><random list of other comments><boosters comment>I think the most common type of quote tweet is an academic or journalist sayinghere is a piece of information<link to supporting information>But sometimes it's also Neo-nazi saying look at this person to attack. Attack my minions.But it's also sometimes things like pointing out how some customer was a being a jerk to a worker.And a bunch of people who initially developed the fediverse were really concerned about attacks by the neo-nazi/alt-right types.
(DIR) Post #ATUbcOmHtWT9eKCkF6 by tenet@defcon.social
2023-03-11T01:27:06Z
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@alienghic @mattblaze If that's the case then the absolute hysteria I see of this shit is beyond fucking stupid. "Hey minions, go attack @somerandomassholethatdoesn'texistandimadeup" Oh no, they totally can't do that without a tweet to get mad about...More platform vs propaganda ignorance, really.
(DIR) Post #ATUcaRMTPwxh2NlCO8 by ML2@akkoma.sandhill.social
2023-03-11T03:06:54.632580Z
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@mattblazeI'd definitely say it limits the usefulness of Mastodon. Being on Akkoma things are rather different. For one thing, I have QT... and search...and markdown...and emote reacts...etc, etc.Honestly I expect that as other companies enter Fediverse we will see an explosion of competition between different services, and pretty soon instead of it being 90%+ Mastodon, it will be a variety of different services. Right now though we have to put up with scolds.
(DIR) Post #ATVaXdNqG2v8hitWDo by ncweaver@thecooltable.wtf
2023-03-11T14:18:44Z
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@alex @mattblaze And, truth be told, what is going to happen is someone does a "search happy/QT happy" fork:Search is just a matter of having a single subscriber to slurp the data (it isn't THAT big if you drop all images), and as for QT, it just renders a screenshot image AND uses a link, so those receiving instances that respect it do the link/image, and everyone else sees a link & image.
(DIR) Post #ATVougiDRlpX2wJMPI by deriamis@mstdn.social
2023-03-11T03:08:30Z
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@mattblaze I get the history behind not having QT here, but the more I hear the reasons, the less convincing they become. It’s an attempt to use technology to solve a non-technological problem. I think the culture and lack of an “algorithm” pretty well ensure it won’t turn out as the old-timers fear it will.
(DIR) Post #ATVouhINHKkmr5EElc by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-03-11T03:20:51Z
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@deriamis Yeah. I don't think the reason Twitter became overrun with Nazis had to do with specific features. It had to do with tolerating Nazis.
(DIR) Post #ATVx0X3H4m4MSLSVw8 by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-03-11T01:05:06Z
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I already understand that people like me are what's wrong with this place, so there's no need to remind me.
(DIR) Post #ATVx0XpqACuwsyBIdU by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-03-11T18:28:10Z
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To the person who DM'd me to literally ask why I don't just use Facebook(!) if I hate it here so much: I don't hate it here, and I never said anything that would reasonably suggest I did. I'd like better search and quote functions. I think those would be improvements. Lots of other people seem to share that desire, though a vocal minority get weirdly angry at anyone who mentions them.This federated platform has a lot of unique advantages. I want it to be successful and better.
(DIR) Post #ATVx0YWjajEF20FYUi by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-11T18:30:34Z
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@mattblaze The lack of a general search function, and to a lessor extent the lack of a quote function (I've heard rumors the latter may be addressed, but not the former), are but two of the many reasons why Mastodon will likely remain a "toy" class ecosystem. Fun to play with, but with little to no impact on the broader world.
(DIR) Post #ATVxOD4mzpXbS9SS6i by ineptules@mastodon.social
2023-03-11T18:34:38Z
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@lauren @mattblaze Is the search function a technical limitation or a choice?
(DIR) Post #ATVxtZwC33LlKjOYF6 by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-03-11T18:35:27Z
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@ineptules @lauren Federated search is technically non-trivial, but probably feasible.
(DIR) Post #ATVxtaVdvFhr6fyrUu by brewsterkahle@mastodon.archive.org
2023-03-11T18:39:58Z
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@mattblaze @ineptules @lauren I miss search and ease of finding handles. I wonder if the @internetarchive could help on some of this infrastructure.The @internetarchive has the computing infrastructure, but the real cost are programmers and other people-- if there were volunteers, or funding from somewhere--we can improve the decentralized world.
(DIR) Post #ATVyOce02Fb8hkghdo by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-03-11T18:45:41Z
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@brewsterkahle @ineptules @lauren @internetarchive I get the impression that some people would show up with pitchforks and torches if you tried, but godspeed.
(DIR) Post #ATVz2A9zMEWlwjVMHo by jw@social.stlouist.com
2023-03-11T18:52:58Z
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@brewsterkahleAnd storing the headers so the "cost of entry" is a little lower. Federated ID servers. @mattblaze @ineptules @lauren @internetarchive
(DIR) Post #ATW0SXYD78QdyTyZDU by brewsterkahle@mastodon.archive.org
2023-03-11T19:09:01Z
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@mattblaze @ineptules @lauren @internetarchive dejanews, wais, jumpstart/webcrawler... , archie, veronica. search rarely came first (except WAIS).
(DIR) Post #ATWL3mBZfA2XA5Q9ce by nikclayton@mastodon.social
2023-03-11T22:54:09Z
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@mattblaze @ineptules @lauren are you looking for tootfinder.ch?
(DIR) Post #ATWL3mtB32uzLJoyaO by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-11T23:00:03Z
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@nikclayton @mattblaze @ineptules No. Such extremely limited 3rd party facilities are not a substitute for a global implementation.
(DIR) Post #ATWLDCY70t4RX6SOpc by nikclayton@mastodon.social
2023-03-11T23:01:46Z
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@lauren @mattblaze @ineptules what would "global implementation" mean in a Fediverse context?
(DIR) Post #ATWLa8D1Jf7ujTWdNY by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-11T23:05:57Z
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@nikclayton @mattblaze @ineptules Native to the mainstream implementations.
(DIR) Post #ATWM7ZYeedAl6sagPA by nikclayton@mastodon.social
2023-03-11T23:11:57Z
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@lauren @mattblaze @ineptules so if I wanted to run a Mastodon instance I would also effectively be agreeing to host an ever growing searchable index of the federated timeline?And what about discussions like this, where my posts are marked as not to be shown on public timelines?If you've got a more detailed write up of what you think is appropriate and how it handles issues like that I'd be interested to read it.
(DIR) Post #ATWMWX0THFciR8VF2W by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-11T23:16:29Z
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@nikclayton @mattblaze @ineptules There would be associated options in the mainstream Mastodon servers that the site owner could choose to enable -- or not. Freedom.
(DIR) Post #ATWMqP02kxJXOZmIPw by nikclayton@mastodon.social
2023-03-11T23:19:59Z
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@lauren @mattblaze @ineptules so if I'm on an instance that doesn't enable that option I would have to go and perform the searches on a different site?In the same way that I can go and perform the searches on tootfinder.ch now?
(DIR) Post #ATWN8UFNz8fIsmZsSu by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-03-11T23:22:18Z
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@nikclayton @lauren @ineptules There's a difference between an unsupported third party service and integration into the common codebase.
(DIR) Post #ATWN8UurUvqGxPz076 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-11T23:23:14Z
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@mattblaze @nikclayton @ineptules Exactly. Any 3rd party solution could vanish at any time, for example.
(DIR) Post #ATWNtmATAqsM4apLrk by nikclayton@mastodon.social
2023-03-11T23:31:52Z
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@lauren @mattblaze @ineptules and if it was an option in the server software the instance admin could turn it off at any time too. So I don't follow why you think that's relevant.Tootfinder (I'm not affiliated with them) uses the same Mastodon APIs that every other client (Tusky, webapps, etc) use, so it's just as much a part of the Fediverse as they are.Would it be different if tootfinder was being run for profit?
(DIR) Post #ATWnsbfTKCH81iQoG8 by jbaert@mastodon.social
2023-03-12T04:22:37Z
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@brewsterkahle @mattblaze @ineptules @lauren @internetarchive I would love to see that. Even if an indexer/search backend is not real-time.
(DIR) Post #ATXkYrEbdJihoGiTcu by nohillside@smnn.ch
2023-03-12T08:20:56Z
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@nikclayton @lauren @mattblaze @ineptules if Tootfinder goes away, search goes away. If a server admin disables a feature, it is still available in all other instances.
(DIR) Post #ATXkYrlvdQNJTcJ5ZA by nikclayton@mastodon.social
2023-03-12T08:30:57Z
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@nohillside @lauren @mattblaze @ineptules 1. TF is open source, different groups can run different instances of it.2. Only available in other instances that have enabled it. How do users find those instances? What if those instances federate with different subsets of other servers?
(DIR) Post #ATXkYsEztLcwvluIsK by nohillside@smnn.ch
2023-03-12T09:56:25Z
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@nikclayton @lauren @mattblaze @ineptules Not exactly sure why you expect a perfect search solution from day one? Lack of search is an issue for a lot of people (and use cases), so let's experiment to find out what works.
(DIR) Post #ATXkYsonkEGcioetgO by nohillside@smnn.ch
2023-03-12T10:14:34Z
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@nikclayton @lauren @mattblaze @ineptules anyway, IMHO the builtin vs addon discussion ignores the main problem: - any privacy-friendly search functionality needs to be based in opt-in- most people will not opt-inA search functionality limited to people who don’t mind being hold accountable for stuff they tooted years ago most likely will be useless.
(DIR) Post #ATXkYtGo46fW7flGKm by nikclayton@mastodon.social
2023-03-12T08:32:04Z
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@nohillside @lauren @mattblaze @ineptules I understand the desire for the feature. But just declaring "It should be built in" without considering the practical implications of how that would actually work isn't helpful.
(DIR) Post #ATXkYtMphhUOQMa4jA by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-12T15:19:36Z
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@nohillside @nikclayton @mattblaze @ineptules Which, as I said earlier, will render Mastodon forever a toy: Useless to most people, useless to most of society, useless to the world. Leaving most people, most of society, and most of the world to the tender ministrations of people like Musk. That's why he laughs and laughs and laughs.
(DIR) Post #ATXkqsY3UHyn63PHWK by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-12T15:23:40Z
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@nohillside @nikclayton @mattblaze @ineptules The "protections" offered people's postings on Mastodon are -- as I'm sure you realize -- largely illusionary.
(DIR) Post #ATXksgwNcDz9fveHz6 by nohillside@smnn.ch
2023-03-12T15:22:56Z
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@lauren @nikclayton @mattblaze @ineptules Wouldn't the alternative be a mandatory opt-in (as in "if you join, your toots will be collected in search engines beyond your control")? Not sure this really is an option, there are good reasons for not having your toots archived automatically.
(DIR) Post #ATXkuUwFD6QR1wRlK4 by lauren@mastodon.laurenweinstein.org
2023-03-12T15:24:23Z
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@nohillside @nikclayton @mattblaze @ineptules Like most everything else ever posted in any sort of public space on the Net, any "protection" touted for user posts on Mastodon are largely if not completely illusionary.
(DIR) Post #ATXt0kQNLVmCQj20xs by nohillside@smnn.ch
2023-03-12T16:54:54Z
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@lauren @nikclayton @mattblaze @ineptules Yeah, that's most likely the case, and IMHO one of the best arguments to offer a good search option *within* Mastodon itself (-> to reduce the motivation of other players to enter the search space).
(DIR) Post #ATbDoBH2tEDMRvOcjI by simon_brooke@mastodon.scot
2023-03-14T07:31:42Z
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@brewsterkahle @mattblaze @ineptules @lauren @internetarchive Distributed real time search over the #Fediverse is genuinely not easy, and could put very high loads on servers. There are lots of benefits to a federated system, but this is an inevitable cost.
(DIR) Post #ATg3xOJYeL9vrtAEZE by webuiltthiscity@sutrofan.com
2023-03-16T07:36:34Z
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@mattblaze @shacker You know Mastodon has quote posts now, right? Not all apps display them correctly, but you can use them.
(DIR) Post #ATg3xPANTxPUVhsPtg by scottaw@appdot.net
2023-03-16T07:52:51Z
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@webuiltthiscity Is it the case that Mastodon has them now, or that 3rd party apps have implemented solutions that work for people using those apps?I thought as far as Mastodon goes, it was still up for debate. But I'll admit I haven't paid attention for a few weeks because I use retoot to qt@mattblaze @shacker
(DIR) Post #ATg3xPjTNTU0GYIRbE by shacker@zirk.us
2023-03-16T15:35:51Z
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@scottaw @webuiltthiscity @mattblaze I don’t know either, have only heard that QT is coming. I use a few of the most popular apps and it’s definitely not present in those.
(DIR) Post #ATg3xPxeWkpEyWvlhY by webuiltthiscity@sutrofan.com
2023-03-16T07:39:41Z
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@mattblaze @shacker Here’s what a quote post looks like in @MonaApp, for example:
(DIR) Post #ATg53bTMjynoMxHHUG by mattblaze@federate.social
2023-03-16T15:48:11Z
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@shacker @scottaw @webuiltthiscity Yes. You've always been able to include a link to a post. That's the simple part. The problem is that clients don't render a preview consistently or reliably, which makes it all but useless until they do.