Post AT4bEamPtEBbaRhLXM by Eiswald@poa.st
(DIR) More posts by Eiswald@poa.st
(DIR) Post #ASwVKxB3NN9xnbBznM by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T16:06:00.456627Z
10 likes, 6 repeats
@renaiOfficial Fedi Gilgamesh Punishment Reading Contest, Fast, and BarbecueRenai and I are going to be reading Gilgamesh, for howsoever long that takes, from now until howsoever so long it takes. Discussions will occur here on the daily if not more than the daily.Reply here if you're interested in participating and I'll make sure you're tagged into any ensuing conversations.Dalley, Stephanie (trans.) - Myths from Mesopotamia (OUP, 2000).pdfDalley, Stephanie (trans.) - Myths from Mesopotamia (OUP, 2000).jpgEpic of Gilgamesh, The [George, trans.] (Penguin, 1999).pdfEpic of Gilgamesh, The [George, trans.] (Penguin, 1999).jpgEpic of Gilgamesh, The [Sandars, trans.] (Penguin, 1972).epubEpic of Gilgamesh, The [Sandars, trans.] (Penguin, 1972).jpg
(DIR) Post #ASwVdghSrVvoCKHm08 by shedinja@poa.st
2023-02-22T16:09:23.399276Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai Why do you call it the punishment reading?
(DIR) Post #ASwVjI3nNwyXW4P0U4 by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T16:10:24.337860Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shedinja @renai I feel like I'm more apt to do it if I feel like it's justice.085075845e61e64f8d071b7d5de334cc.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASwW5P8Tl8LVpc8bcu by shedinja@poa.st
2023-02-22T16:14:23.761086Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai Hell I'll join in, I've been slacking on reading lately
(DIR) Post #ASwWA9vvi0ak87XFWS by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T16:15:15.707936Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@shedinja @renai Welcome aboard!Justice Never Sleeps
(DIR) Post #ASwWcfhXBrailSOiXo by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T16:20:24.886403Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shedinja @renai I was thinking of taking it slow--like 5-10 pages a day. Looks like that would get me through Gilgamesh I by the end of the day.I'll have some thoughts sometime this evening when I have a chance to read it.Gilgamesh Cuneiform Text.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASwawj4skHzCqS8WjQ by FruitpilledPeachcel@cawfee.club
2023-02-22T17:08:49.560532Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai ngl,when I read it a few months back on some website I was especially looking for a version that had no foreword or commentary, I was just looking for the pure story to make something of it.But I would eagerly look forward to your discussions on the story
(DIR) Post #ASwb0s09VduLgCtsXY by FruitpilledPeachcel@cawfee.club
2023-02-22T17:09:35.395271Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai @shedinja Oh yeah, the heavenly bull scene. To me it was one of the most (unintentionally?) funny parts
(DIR) Post #ASwb5znjwAvfJnXSLI by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T17:10:32.061010Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @renai I'll make sure you're included.What were your thoughts on the Bull of Heaven?epic-of-gilgamesh-origins_5.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASwbjRv5KMAtotmrNg by FruitpilledPeachcel@cawfee.club
2023-02-22T17:17:37.846626Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai Pretty cool creature and very dangerous. IIRC his mere breath could dig holes into the ground.Also I remember it having lapis lazuli horns, which I know was really popular for jewelry back in these days. I dunno if "spoilers" so I won't get into why I find the bull incident funnyIf you ask me if it was actually a real beast, I think there is a possibility for that, but if that's so then maybe the breath part was hyperbole. Also not sure if it was a bull from Heaven, as I see many things that went on in that region at the time through book of Enoch-tilted glasses.
(DIR) Post #ASwc7EYkeTjHKlgLqq by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T17:21:57.780506Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @renai >Book of EnochWe should consider that some time in the future.I didn't recall that about the horns or the breath. That's interesting.We'll get to the Bull of Heaven soon enough, but thanks for your discretion.355369542.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASwlq7zmnoInawoEzo by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T19:10:55.317319Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @renai @shedinja Just some notes from the Gilgamesh I Tablet reading.In SBV 2, what is Gilgamesh being described as doing to the married men and women?"Was overbearing.""Would not leave the young girls alone.""Anu often hears their complaints."Moving on..."When Aruru heard this, she created inside herself the word of Anu."Aruru washed her hands, pinched off a piece of clay, cast it out into the open country.>We should talk about the "word" here.There's wild cattle. A hunter is described not a herdsman. Are we seeing a narrative depicting the first domestication of cattle?Harlot Shamhat. Indications she is a priestess. Holy prostitution.Sex to domesticate Enkidu.Enkidu eats what true herbivores eat.Sex used to gain control over the herds by splitting off a divine forebear from the herd.Reference to the canid-style manner of sex the pair engage in.Enkidu loses natural prowess but gains wisdom. Shamhat immediately engages him as a teacher.Uruk the sheepfold.>And Enkidu has already been the lord of a natural fold.Pure house of Anu and Ishtar.Repeated references to sky-bolt of Anu.Wise Cow NinsunAxe and sky-bolt conflated."I loved it as a wife.""Save the life of a comrade.">I'm already getting Manu and Yemo memories. Adam and Christ as well.1.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASwq7WOrih2g1X5bTU by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T19:58:53.130778Z
5 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja i'm sure it's been said many times in the past, but i'm looking at this story with fresh eyes so forgive me for pointing out the obvious: it's interesting to see the theme of coupling with a woman cause loss of innocence. it severs enkidu's connection with nature and makes him not able to run as he could. even the animals shy away from him. and in exchange he gets "reason and wide understanding". the biblical correspondence is very strong; enkidu rejected life, but gained knowledge.before his fall he "weighed too much" for gilgamesh--enkidu was of a higher rank than this great ruler who's two-thirds god. he was unrestricted and unbound by human worries and ambitions, and in order for them to become friends enkidu had to lose his innocence and natural dignity.theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTUWCr3IXxwgilgamesh.webp
(DIR) Post #ASx5gxndL7puRw24oa by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T22:53:21.966618Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja >i'm sure it's been said many times in the pastIt didn't actually occur to me, funny enough.That's a solid insight.What precisely is bound up in this means by which the authorities are domesticating Enkidu?He also loses at least some of his animal aspect. Places him suddenly in a position to being subordinated in some respect to his sexual partner.Enkidu is functioning in some respect as the guardian of these wild animals, the intervention of whom is preventing the functional harvesting of animals from the natural circumstance.It's not explicitly stated that his "fall" has anything to do with domestication, but I could see it connected.Nevertheless we are seeing wild cows described here. And Enkidu isn't eating them but rather he's living as them.Comparisons between Enkidu and an axe, a lightning bolt, or even meteoric iron.I'm sorry if this seems like brainstorming, but there's so much to consider that I feel like I'm forced to do it.gilgamesh___jack_farrell_by_jangelles-d3iu67z.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASx64xUc8ElYRqZtku by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-22T22:57:42.160445Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @renai @shedinja I find the genesis of Enkidu to be very interesting. Specifically in that Enkidu is described in familiar terms to the incarnation of our Lord.He begins as the "word of Anu" placed within the inner being of the goddess Araru. Then with a flick of mud upon the earth he's manifested as this being that's naturally more powerful and perhaps even divine than this Gilgamesh who's 2/3 a god already.The fact that he's living as the guardian of these beasts and functionally serving in that capacity more justly than that of Gilgamesh over the flock of Uruk hasn't been lost on me either.
(DIR) Post #ASyKMAoDT8I7BdoFhQ by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-23T13:12:23.728384Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja "As for man, his days are numbered,whatever he may do, it is but wind"-Gilgamesh"Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away." James 4:14here gilgamesh was actually arguing against the idea, contrasting himself with mortal man and claiming the same fate doesn't await him. he's trying to motivate enkidu to go defeat humbaba here, but taken alone it's a beautiful memento mori that reminded me of that verse from james.
(DIR) Post #ASyL4YDrmKPAXpy57A by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-23T13:20:24.938856Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja Gilgamesh was such a popular story for literally thousands of years. The audience, in all likelihood hearing this narrative for the hundredth time, would likely reflect with a certain amount of bittersweetness to the dramatic irony of what Gilgamesh is saying.I think there's another discussion to be had about the character and psychology of the heroic man in Gilgamesh and frankly in loads of other heroic epics.
(DIR) Post #ASyNNmUDAdouC1uWRc by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-23T13:46:18.063811Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja the motif of kisses. first as the crowd kissing enkidu's feet as he's waiting for gilgamesh to come claim the right of first night, and then the two after the battle kissing to establish their friendship. the first kind of adoration and supplication toward one higher, the second of mutual respect between equals. kisses of different kinds were way more common in the ancient world, and a lot of it is visible in the bible too, like joseph kissing his brothers when they finally meet again. kissing has been relegated to a much smaller role nowadays, or almost exclusively a romantic one. the diversity in meaning was lost somewhere along the way.ea.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASyOd8b7LL2l4I1l3o by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-23T14:00:16.883789Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja oh, and chapter theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E82wwNc7r8
(DIR) Post #ASyXjbvO7OrZLhfbxQ by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-23T15:42:17.787243Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja First recorded buddy story.Incidentally first heroic epic we have recorded as well. Iliad wasn't written down until like 750 BC. First record of writing of Gilgamesh goes back to 2150 BC.You can see a lot of themes of brotherhood working themselves out in the Iliad as well. The intimacy between Achilles and Patroclus--and some of other myrmidons actually.I sense that reading something other than brotherhood into these attachments has been a deliberate work by infernal powers to frustrate the development of organic friendship amongst peers.sample_987ffbfb491f3374f4939747775f174a.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASyY2TEGfjZ3smUhBQ by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-23T15:45:42.296176Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja폴리니 쇼팽 에튀드 모음 (Op.10 NO.1 _ NO.12) ⧸ Pollini plays Chopin Etude Collection ⧸ ポーリーニ演奏ショパンエチュードコレクション.mp4__tokoro_megumi_idolmaster_and_1_more_drawn_by_bitchcraft123__sample-bbbbb5b7198c113d3f9d4753f1b3f000.jpg
(DIR) Post #ASyhNVgZdJMHAbqDTM by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-23T17:30:21.149530Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja I think indeed the gestures of affection may be the most interesting elements of the second tablet. I'll add a few of my own observations as well."Kissed his feet as if he were a toddler.">What an interesting expression."They embraced one anotherand embraced and held hands.">You see a lot of this repetition in epic literature."Humbaba, whose shout is a flood weapon, whose utterance is fire, and whose breath is death.">Immediately made me think dragon, but apparently Humbaba is depicted as a demon, giant, or ogre in artwork. Flood-weapon in particular draws comparison to the likes of Vritra and Tiamat.>Defeating Humbaba would open the Pine Forest to human exploitation. Just like the fall of Enkidu reopened the herds to hunting. Cross reference with the likes of Herakles."Can hear up to sixty leagues the sounds of his forest.">Established there by Ellil, who appears to be a Mesopotamian deity associated with wind, air, earth, and storms. "So holy that not even the other gods could look upon him.>With the friendship of Enkidu and Gilgamesh, the raw creative power of the pair is now free to be externalized productively on external threats to expansion rather than wasted upon leisure, excess, and self-destruction.>I can't help noticing that the sexual intercourse that civilizes Enkidu is the mindless and bestial self-destructive leisure that's wasting the potential of Gilgamesh early in this narrative. Certainly Gilgamesh is also violating the the heavenly order by intervening in marriage in this way. But certainly also Enkidu's fall was specifically to a temple prostitute. Perhaps the implication is that heaven smiled on this specific instance of pre-marital sex owing to the context and those involved.>Gilgamesh is treating Uruk fundamentally as his own harem. No better than a bull himself. Enkidu is never described as having any such relationship with the animals of the wilderness when he protected them.>Of course the way that cows seem to be glorified in this narrative, perhaps this is a weakness of their culture. Wanting to be like to cows.>I wonder if Gilgamesh simply lacked a peer consistent to his power before this point. If shame was basically imposed externally and through violent force.Humbaba
(DIR) Post #ASyqloS0PqTZuFgrcO by FruitpilledPeachcel@cawfee.club
2023-02-23T19:15:32.083437Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai @shedinja Have you gotten to the fight between the protagonists and Humbaba?
(DIR) Post #ASywMwXpmj8NUjwPho by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-23T20:18:19.524078Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @renai @shedinja Just finished tablet 2, which is short of that.
(DIR) Post #ASzxRf1OeoeBhwXfE0 by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-24T08:05:05.654876Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja "Do not trust entirely, Gilgamesh, in your own strength.When you have looked long enough, trust to your first blow.He who leads the way will save his comrade.He who knows the paths, he will guard his friend.Let Enkidu go in front of you,He knows the way of the Pine Forest.">I wonder if we're deliberately entering the portion of legendry where the hero cannot rely purely on his own strength. On something else he must fundamentally have some kind of faith in order to endure."Bring him back safe in person for brides.">Repeated several times. I suppose it goes without saying that Uruk will be thrown into chaos if Gilgamesh dies without legitimate issue, especially considering his philandering."They grasped each other by the hand.">Another one of those displays of affection."She put on the garment [?], adornment of her body,Put on toggle-pins, adornment of her breast...">Gilgamesh's mom sounds like a babe."Why did you single out my son Gilgamesh and impose a restless spirit on him?Now you have affected him and he will takethe distance path to where Humbaba lives.He faces an unknown struggle,He will ride along an unknown road...">Cross reference Iliad, Achilles prays to his divine mother Thetis for aid. Ninsun Thetis analog. Divine, seeress, gift of the goddess.>Cross reference Iliad. Ninsun adopts Enkidu as her own son, making him Gilgamesh's adoptive brother. Patroclus the adopted son of Peleus, Achilles's father. Patroclus, who follows Achilles to Ilium as a friend and older brother, who similarly dies so that Achilles may attain his glory.>Cross reference Iliad, "The Fame that Does not Die." Close to immortality as Achilles gets. As close as Gilgamesh gets."Priestesses have accepted the orphan">Seems to be some acknowledgement that Enkidu does indeed have parentage as we should at least be interpreting it. They didn't have to say "Orphan."Enkidu's New Groove
(DIR) Post #AT0TM8cYtKlwIwKtpA by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-24T14:02:39.410472Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja "Into the bath-house she went seven times"the number signifies completeness, and is symbolic of ninsun's wish for the two's safe return."Do not rely, O Gilgamesh, on your strength alone, look long and hard, land a blow you can count on!Who goes in front will save his comrade, who knows the road shall [guard] his friend"this is repeated by both the elders and young men. they really want to see gilgamesh return from this journey, so he has to trust in his friend's powers and not be hasty. they seem quite adamant to get this advice through to him, probably because they know how recklessly he's prone to act, and because like kerel said they can't really afford to lose him. maybe this role will be a lesson in humility, to let enkidu go in front and show the way and maybe protect him. enkidu knows the lay of the land anyway, and more about the dangers to be found there. even after all this ceremony enkidu still advises gilgamesh not to go, knowing the inherent risk. the man of the wild is being the voice of reason and caution. onward to humbaba!humbaba.jpg
(DIR) Post #AT0U218v5L9ZH3ROfw by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-24T14:10:13.535849Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFvqvZOtCF0i tried to pick one that would be fitting for two adventurers going on a quest.
(DIR) Post #AT196YCAEfFj3yErAG by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-24T21:50:27.042986Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @kakkerel @shedinja here's some recommended listening for tablet 4, which we'll do tomorrow. i stole ahead and read it today because i was impatient. anyway i thought about whether to pick cheerful and dreamlike music, or something very exciting to portray the perilous journey. i think this one has a good mix of both, and the modulation between the two is a good companion to reading about gilgamesh's fearful state after the nightmares, each time soothed by his friend's words. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV1kANo4qPI
(DIR) Post #AT1yFE3LaXmgrU0aqO by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-25T07:23:28.472686Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @kakkerel @shedinja going on to tablet 4.what is a house of the dream god anyway? did they built it into the mountains themselves? it's possible the house was built at the foot of the mountain or somewhere else, but it feels thematic to have the it close to where the offering of flour was made, and i see it being within a demigod's powers to carve a little cave in a day. enkidu and gilgamesh are taking turns comforting each other. first enkidu is worried about the quest, then gilgamesh is unnerved by his nightmares, and after that enkidu loses his strength at the thought of facing humbaba. this goes into strengthening the impression of their friendship, their ability to confide in each other.the dreams predict a tough battle, but what's interesting is that in them gilgamesh doesn't defeat the threat with his own strength. the victory is credited to shamash, the sun-god. even in the first one the impression is that their flight was something given to them, a miracle they wouldn't have otherwise been able to make happen. in a few dreams shamash appears in person and is described as handsome, like a lion, and shining brightly. in the final dream he is a bull, another example of the mesopotamian glorification of cows.reading this tablet made me appreciate the people who put these texts together a bit more. it's very fragmentary, and the edition i have has many differences compared to the ones posted in this thread, even the previous one by andrew george. particularly important is this difference:1999"My friend, the mountain you saw [could not be Humbaba:]"2003"My friend, the mountain you saw: [was it not Humbaba?]"one saying it isn't, the other saying it is. the meaning of the dream changes quite a lot, and the mountain being humbaba makes much more sense, since it presses down on gilgamesh, and the one to save him from peril is once again shamash, the sun-god.
(DIR) Post #AT2Ky92HHrYLK8KgJU by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-25T11:38:06.186163Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja Gilgamesh is straddling an interesting place. I have not been able to decide firmly if the stories are meant to be mythological or legendary--if that makes any sense. There's a pathological and humanistic intensity in these that I wouldn't expect from something like a cosmogony and yet at the same time the action is very often mystical.The battle is fundamentally waged as an internal struggle. The victory will be assured by heaven. The heroes need to rely upon each other fundamentally to maintain their resolve.
(DIR) Post #AT2MainKssvHBdInnU by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-25T11:56:16.795342Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja The omissions in this tablet are particularly upsetting, as they frequently constitute Gilgamesh's dreams or Enkidu's interpretations thereof."At twenty leagues they are their ration.At thirty leagues they stopped for the night.They fug a pit in front of ShamashGilgamesh went up on to the mountainAnd made his flour-offering to [ ]'O Mountain, bring me a dream, a favorable one!'Enkidu arranged it for him, for Gilgamesh.A dust devil passed by, and he/it fixedHe made him lie down inside the circle and [ ][] like wild barley [ ]Gilgamesh sat with his chin on his knees.Sleep, which spills out over the people, overcame him.In the middle watch he finished his sleep,He rose up and said to his friend,'My friend, didn't you call me? Then why am I awake?Didn't you touch me? Why am I so upset?Didn't a god pass by? Then why is my flesh so feeble?My friend, I had a second (?) dream,And the dream that I had was extremely upsetting.">Apparently this offering format was a means of pacifying rural spirits. Pacification of the countryside has already been a theme of this narrative.>Also mention of a specific prayer called the "Well of Gilgamesh," that was performed when digging a new well.>The significance of this is largely lost on me, but I would assume the intended audience would have been very familiar with the concept and would have understood the significance of the triplicate repetition instantly.Years ago I wrote a piece on development of humanism in antiquated Hellas, and I actually used this text to foil some other popular literature from post-dark-age-Greece. Reading this again though, I have to wonder if I was alright. Most the conflict we've seen so far has been internal, of the mind, and much of it would remain invisible to us if not for the interplay of the comrades here, who additionally reinforce and reinvigorate each other.Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts.Heaven and earth are full of your glory.Hosanna in the highest.Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.Hosanna in the highest.>triplicate format>specific language referencing heavens above>intimations of light and loft>invokes God specificallyI can't help but note parallel themes. I've suggested before in other conversations, with people who look at me funny, that mythology is just the manifestation of cosmic themes that God deliberately placed into the first man, playing themselves out iteratively and foreboding and commemorating things that the Lord will do and those things that He has already done.frenfrenfren.png
(DIR) Post #AT4AF2Uk9HfmmTQ7UW by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-26T08:47:19.427331Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja here's some listening to go with tablet 5. it's the big fight! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt-QwrR-Pjw
(DIR) Post #AT4XmqWFTj9AQkDJUu by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-26T13:11:08.940864Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja "Cedars scabbed with resin grew sixty cubits high,the resin [oozed] forth, drizzling down like rain,[flowing freely] for ravines to bear away.[Through] all the forest a bird began to sing,[hen birds] gave answer, a constant din was the noise."what a peaceful place. a little moment of calm in between restless nights and difficult battles. the forest is almost too full of life, so much that it unnerves gilgamesh. the two hold hands again, isn't that nice?"[though one cannot climb] a sloping rampart, two [will succeed!]"the power of friendship.i wondered at a missing passage in tablet 4 in the older edition, but it seems it's been placed in the middle of tablet 5. 4000 years later the text is still changing in the span of a few years. it's shamash telling the two to not let humbaba equip the seven numinous auras.the scene where they fight is very compelling for something composed so long ago. guess humans never change all that much.humbaba begs for his life, but his way of doing so is funny. after failing with gilgamesh he first tells enkidu he should have killed him when he was young and then entreats him to spare him. enkidu just keeps telling his friend to kill the demon already.gilgamesh finally finishes off humbaba and the two reduce the forest to a wasteland. maybe there is something to the idea of gilgamesh and enkidu as symbolic figures of humanity's expansion into the world, along with its exploitation of natural resources.enkidu at the end is ever the cautious one, telling gilgamesh they should make a gift to enlil to placate him after doing what they did. the natural order is clearly upset by the killing of humbaba, like it's something that was never supposed to happen. the forest, so teeming with life at the beginning of the tablet, is now desolate and its guardian is gone. it's a superhuman feat they've accomplished, but one deliberately going against a wall that was placed on purpose. this chapter nevertheless ends on a happy triumphal note, as the two sail away on their raft made of the last parts of the now-lost forest.humbaba.webp
(DIR) Post #AT4aT8Oxa9L1xk64WW by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-26T13:41:12.100218Z
4 likes, 3 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja >humbaba begs for his life, but his way of doing so is funny. after failing with gilgamesh he first tells enkidu he should have killed him when he was young and then entreats him to spare him. enkidu just keeps telling his friend to kill the demon already.I get a very strange feeling off of this. Humbaba begs for mercy, offering certain gifts, particularly an unending supply of pine wood, as compensation. The implication that the forest is functionally rendered into a wasteland is certain a rejection of that possible eventuality. And here I was thinking they intended to use the material resources of the forest fruitfully.But the exchange is bizarre. And Gilgamesh is very genuinely and darkly tempted by the idea. I couldn't help the impression that Enkidu was somehow being kept at bay by the creature, perhaps was suffering under its attacks.>enkidu at the end is ever the cautious one, telling gilgamesh they should make a gift to enlil to placate him after doing what they did. the natural order is clearly upset by the killing of humbaba, like it's something that was never supposed to happen. the forest, so teeming with life at the beginning of the tablet, is now desolate and its guardian is gone. it's a superhuman feat they've accomplished, but one deliberately going against a wall that was placed on purpose. this chapter nevertheless ends on a happy triumphal note, as the two sail away on their raft made of the last parts of the now-lost forest.I apparently read this wrong. I assumed the offense would have been to *not* slay Humbaba, as if wavering in his purpose was itself the sin."Sirara and Lebanon were split apart at their gyrations,White clouds grew black,Death dropped down over them like a fog.Shamash summonsed up great tempests against Humbaba,South Wind, North Wind, East Wind, West Wind, Moaning Wind,Gale, zaparziqqu-Wind, imhullu-Wind,...-wind Asakku, Wintry Wind, Tempest, Whirlwind,Thirteen winds rose up at him and Humbaba's face grew dark.He could not charge forwards, he could not run backwards.Thus the weapons of Gilgamesh succeeded against Humbaba."Lovely description here of the god's power. A consistent theme of this sort of mythological epic. The gods pull out all the stops to provide aid to the hero, but he final blow must nevertheless be struck by the hero, even though the gods could most assuredly manage the work on their own. But why have creation if you're just going to stomp over it all the time and never allow it to be?_denisthemenace-_-53e2b134-13d4-49ce-ae5f-aba322039eb3.jpg
(DIR) Post #AT4bEamPtEBbaRhLXM by Eiswald@poa.st
2023-02-26T13:49:46.531579Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja tfw gods treat us like video game characters
(DIR) Post #AT4huUYtzvHsBojuFc by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-26T15:04:34.864098Z
3 likes, 3 repeats
@kakkerel @renai I'm a little late but I think I'll join in too. I've finished tablet 3.Overall I'm interpreting it as the story of a declining empire with a tyrannical king allying himself with one of the strong tribes threatening the civilized part of the world in order to defeat the rest of the barbarians.The herd apparently rejects Enkidu after he slept with the harlot. Was that because of him having sex or having sex with this particular foreign civilized woman?The custom of primae noctis as exercised by Gilgamesh, which Enkidu finds completely detestable, could further point to a deep difference in customs, and that being the reason Enkidu was rejected from his tribe.Being preoccupied with sexuality seems to be tied to civilization rather than nature.Perhaps sex with the harlot is signifying Enkidu's alliance with the empire through marriage while rejecting some other intertribal marriage arrangement.About @kakkerel pointing out holy prostitution>the priestesses, the hierodules and the women of the templeThere also seems to be a hierarchy between the various women in the temple too.There is also a distinct warrior class of "the men that know combat", that can directly communicate with the king much like the priests do.
(DIR) Post #AT4pNrQ2nHTF9mXzWq by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-26T16:28:19.419970Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@laurel @renai >Overall I'm interpreting it as the story of a declining empire with a tyrannical king allying himself with one of the strong tribes threatening the civilized part of the world in order to defeat the rest of the barbarians.Would you take this as a narrative Sumerian or Akkadian in origin? What more precisely can we tell from this euhemeristic reading?Gilgamesh.jpg
(DIR) Post #AT4v40iN7fuxv62PmC by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-26T17:31:57.996373Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai >Sumerian or Akkadian in originI'll have to get back to you on that after I read some ancient Mesopotamia history.338993f0be54e4b384b82210c407043495c26a8d7a98562b301bccfd7dbd6542.png
(DIR) Post #AT4vqVyIDKMMlFc5ZI by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-26T17:40:43.954119Z
5 likes, 2 repeats
@laurel @renai I just thought you knew something I didn't. Gilgamesh is really ancient. It was probably first written down in 2100 BC, but most of our surviving examples of it come from around 800 BC. But it appears the story was orally recorded for hundreds of years before 2100BC, giving it in my mind a very likely Sumerian origin. Making it really the most ancient secular narrative I can really think of. I mean, this was ancient when the OT was still being written.The Sumerians are perhaps the oldest recorded civilization. Perhaps the oldest civilization that belongs to the civilizations we at least have on record.They spoke a language isolate that, in spite of leaving no real genetic descendants, nevertheless powerfully influenced all Afro-Asiatic (including Semitic) languages, including Akkadian and Egyptian, to such an extent that an Semitic forebear cannot be faithfully reconstructed from extant Semitic languages. Even certain Indo-European languages like Hittite are basically unreadable without at least understanding the Sumerian determinative system.Complicating this is that many of these civilizations belonged to a "Babylonian" cultural milieu that's different or even impossible to disentangle into separate threads today.Sumerian Ishtar and Shamash.png
(DIR) Post #AT6lW7uVLuYt7UOuo4 by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-27T14:54:25.219615Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja tablet 6, time for another fight, this time more elegantly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzASslzJZ0A
(DIR) Post #AT6nY7uyUkgvdAhb7I by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-27T15:17:11.506076Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @kakkerel @laurel @shedinja ishtar is the harlot stage two. she's a disaggregating force but of a higher level, and gilgamesh declines despite the short-term benefits. with the knowledge gained from being civilized he's able to stand up to being broken down further. ishtar's made everyone so far miserable.the bull is heaven's punishment for disobedience, but even ishtar has to barter for it with her father. even divine beings have to negotiate. the only god on gilgamesh and enkidu's side has been shamash, to whom they end up sacrificing it after killing it.the fight is technique. enkidu figures out the bull's weakness and gilgamesh exploits it, no godly assistance needed. is this them growing stronger, more experienced, knowledgeable? anyway they're a good combination."They washed their hands in the river Euphrates,took each other by the hand and in they came."and again.9d-Gilgamesh-Bull-of-Heaven-Enkidu.webp
(DIR) Post #AT6rD62efuAfY0WQls by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-27T15:58:12.662539Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja "For Dumuzi the lover of your youthYou decreed that he should keep weeping year after year.You loved the colourful allallu-bird,But you hit him and broke his wing.He stays in the woods crying, "My wing!">I have a feeling these two are meant to be connected, but I can only speculate. I can't help thinking of Ovid's Metamorphoses. The amount of transformations she's responsible for, and that they're caused by her own libidinous affections. I can't avoid the impression that Ovid was tapping into a very old idea with his story."You loved the shepherd, herdsman, and chief shepherdWho was always heaping up the glowing ashes for you,And cooked ewe-lambs for you every day.But you hit him and turned him into a wolf,His own herd-boys hunt him down And his dogs tear at his haunches.">Cross-reference Artemis and Actaeon>He fell to the fatal wrath of Artemis, but the surviving details of his transgression vary: "the only certainty is in what Aktaion suffered, his pathos, and what Artemis did: the hunter became the hunted; he was transformed into a stag, and his raging hounds, struck with a 'wolf's frenzy' (Lyssa), tore him apart as they would a stag.""But Ishullanu said to you,'Me? What do you want of me?Did my mother not bake for me, and did I not eat?What I eat (with you) would be loaves of dishonour and disgrace,Rushes would be my only covering against the cold.'You listened as he said this,And you hit him, turned him into a frog">I can only think of Latona and Juno, and it's not a particularly apt comparison. But there's something going on here. I would have to pick at it for a while to develop something more concrete."I have heaped up a store of grain in UrukI have ensured the production of[] years of chaff[] has been gathered[] grass.>I think the implication here is that the Bull of Heaven would have necessitated a material shortage and famine, but Ishtar justifies its use nevertheless through her own artifice in ensuring sufficient food supplies present in Uruk. This period would be characterized by large, centrally-governed states where the ruler's predominant responsibility in ensuring adequate food supplies in case of a bad or absent harvest. Makes me think of Quetzacoatl."And Enkidu fell into it.">I think they're presaging Enkidu's doom here.>the bull is heaven's punishment for disobedience, but even ishtar has to barter for it with her father. even divine beings have to negotiate. the only god on gilgamesh and enkidu's side has been shamash, to whom they end up sacrificing it after killing it.Shamash seems to be the literal embodiment of the sun. Apparently is distinct in his persuasions from the other sky gods like Enlil and Anu, who are apparently antagonistic in this circumstance. There's a lot going on here, but I'd have to do a fair amount of digging to say something more concrete.>the fight is technique. enkidu figures out the bull's weakness and gilgamesh exploits it, no godly assistance needed. is this them growing stronger, more experienced, knowledgeable? anyway they're a good combination.Completely different from the previous engagement. Previously they relied upon the direct aid of Shamash, but it was an engagement they had a lot of time to make preparations for. In a pinch, they nevertheless overcome difficulties through coordination, artifice, and strength.epic-of-gilgamesh-origins_5.jpg
(DIR) Post #AT8otm5UpRByZBQhxA by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-28T14:41:43.909133Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja time for tablet 7. there's a story behind this piece, but the ending of the fourth movement has every instrument except two violins stop playing, as their players leave the stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXctarOxRz8
(DIR) Post #AT8s3d6POG51SQFOkK by ai@cawfee.club
2023-02-28T15:17:07.240269Z
4 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai Just wanted to say that this is a great thread and I've been enjoying reading tidbits from it. I wish I could join in, but sadly I'm short on time to read, and what little I have read before is really hazy now. There's a character / diety named Humbaba, right? A kid in my class kept insisting that he was like a giant hamburger.
(DIR) Post #AT8v4BFAklPBCvIiAa by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-28T15:50:50.544950Z
4 likes, 2 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja "Oh my brother, what a dream I saw last night!Anu, Ellil, Ea, and heavenly Shamash were in the assembly">Cross reference gods of the Iliad"And Anu said to Ellil, 'As they have slain the Bull of Heaven,To too they have slain Huwawa, who guarded the mountains planted with pines.'And Anu Said, 'One of them must die.'Ellil replied: 'Let Enkidu die, but let Gilgamesh not die.'Then heavenly Shamash said to valiant Ellil,'Was it not according to your word tha ttheyslew the Bull of Heaven and Huwawa? Should now innocent Enkidu die?'But Ellil turned in anger to heavenly Shamash, saying,'The fact is, you accompanied them daily, like one of their comrades.'>And like the gods of the Iliad, while there is a continuous and uninterrupted dispensation of fate and allotments that nevertheless they are the product of the assiduous but temporary discord of the heavens. The gods will try to dispense justice as it seems appropriate to them, but they won't often go to bat for mortals."Door, don't you remember the words?...I selected the timber for you over twenty leagues,>I assume he had to travel that far to find such a tree.Until I had found a fully mature pine.>No-one prizes pine so highly now. I wonder what it must have looked like.There is no other wood likes yours!Your height is six poles, your width two poles,Your doorpost, your lower and upper hingeare made from a single tree.I made you, I carried you to NippurBe aware, door, that this was a favour to you,And this was a good deed done for you []I myself raised the axe, I cut you down,Loaded you myself on to the raft, []>He's beaming with pride. To take what is raw and crude, growing from the earth and hewn from nature and make it a beautiful fixture of everyday life...Now, door, it was I who made you,I who carried you to nippur.>Cross reference other famous carpenters--Saint Joseph and Jesus ChristBut the king who shall arise after me shall go through you,>This little soliloquoy is about recognizing his own mortality and that the things he has done will nevertheless survive him, offering him some modicum of something not quite like immortality.Gilgamesh shall go through your portalsAnd change my name and put on his own name!">Bitterly said."He decided to curse the harlot too.'Come Shamhat, I shall fix a fate for you!Curses shall not cease for ever and ever.I shall curse you with a great curse!Straight away my curses shall rise up against you!You shall never make your house voluptuous again,Shall not release [] of your young bulls,You shall not let them into the girls' rooms.Filth shall impregnate your lovely lap>There's something going on with the sexuality of this story that feels very familiar and alien at the same time.The drunkard shall soak your party dress with vomit,>This is an amusing image for so old a text. The more things change the more they stay the same....Your cosmetic paint shall be the potter's lump of clay,>Drawing comparison of the body and clay, in ugliness...The crossroads shall be your only sitting place,>A depraved and deprived public prostituteWaste ground your only lying place, the shade of a city wall your only sitting place....Owls will nest in your roof beams.>I'm assuming that to mean that vermin will have taken up nesting in her house, attracting owls. Simultaneously, the flashing eyes of owls in the night will seem like a constant source of judgment...Because you defiled me when I was pure,Because you seduced me in the open country when I was pure.>It's interesting to see Enkidu so shaken like this, especially when he's been so solid throughout this entire story. The awareness that he's not escaping from his own punishment has made him wish for the simplicity of the life he knew before."Shamash heard the utterance of his mouth.Immediately a loud voice called down to him from the sky:'Enkidu, why are you cursing my harlot Shamhat?>Did Ishtar talk to them in this manner? Has any other figure spoken specifically with a voice booming down from heaven?Who fed you on food fit for gods,Gave you ale to drink, fit for kings,Clothed you with a great robe,Then provided you with Gilgamesh for a fine partner?And now, Gilgamesh, the friend who is a brother to youWill lay you to rest on a great bedAnd lay you to rest on a bed of loving care,And let you stay in a restful dwelling, the dwelling on the left.>Enkidu is apparently being judged fit for hell. But I suppose he is being offered peace.Princes of the earth will kiss your feet.He will make the people of Uruk weep for you,mourn for you,Will fill the proud people with woe..."Then Enkidu wept, for he was sick at heart,[] he lay down alone.He spoke what was in his mind to his friend.'Listen again, my friend! I had a dream in the night.The sky called out, the earth replied,I was standing in between them.There was a young man whose face was obscured>Familiar material for a dreamHis face was like that of an Anzu-birdHe had the paws of a lion, the had the claws of an eagle.>Implements of predatory animaslHe seized me by my locks, using great force against me.I hit him, and he jumped like a keppu-toy."He hit me, and forced me down like an onager.Like a wild bull he trampled on me,Squeezed out my whole body.I cried out: 'Save me, my friend, don't desert me!'But you were afraid and did not help me>Not sure if the figure is supposed to just be an other, of if he imagines Gilgamesh is this thing harming him.He hit me and turned me into a dove.>Separation of the body from the soul, the latter of which *could* fly to heaven...He seized me, drove me down to the dark house, dwelling of Erkalla's god,To the house which those who enter cannot leave,On the road where travelling is one way only,To the house where those who stay are deprived of light.Where dust is their food, and clay their bread.They are clothed, like birds, with feathers,And they see no light, and they dwell in darkness.>Fairly consistent illustrations of hell across cultures, but with some interesting idiosyncrasies. It seems like hell is like being transformed into a bird.>Powerful imagery.du7o8u8xuaatc7b_orig.jpg
(DIR) Post #AT8v7AYjkpyjxAsRqi by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-28T15:51:22.960418Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja enkidu accomplished his task, the reason he was created. as a response to the people's outcry over gilgamesh's way of governing his kingdom. gilgamesh got something else to do for a while, and a friend like a brother. as heaven raised enkidu up, they now strike him down. even the propitiatory gift of the door to enlil didn't soothe him. the reason apparently is their upsetting of the natural order or way of things. they killed humbaba and then the bull of heaven, and razed the forest.interestingly what shamash tells enkidu after he's cursed the harlot who took his innocence is that he should instead bless her, for all the good things about knowledge and civilization he got to experience because of her. enkidu's life ends with a whimper, and he laments not dying in battle, which he was so afraid of. isn't that typically the fate of great warriors, or at least smart ones? a quiet death.
(DIR) Post #AT96Xn3eL5WINbEUbI by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-28T17:59:26.943503Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@ai @renai Somewhat unsurprisingly, the Hittite pronunciation appears to be "Huwawa."Feel free to lurk, in any case. I'm glad it has been entertaining.d61a329fcee336fe541d8a2eeb7e1ec6.jpg
(DIR) Post #AT9F5nnYtL5A9hR9H6 by marine@breastmilk.club
2023-02-28T19:35:13.676002Z
4 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @renai y’all better talk about how Gilgamesh called ishtar a sandal filled with piss smh
(DIR) Post #AT9GyetlmZtsQz3uJE by Nero@breastmilk.club
2023-02-28T19:56:21.058875Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@marine @kakkerel @renai >this nigga really filled her sandals with his piss and dipped
(DIR) Post #AT9OHlQMRZkFr2MbFw by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-28T21:18:14.583160Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja >Tablet 6The way Ishtar complained to her father reminded to how Aphrodite often behaved similarly towards her own father.Wonder what would have happened if Enkidu had rejected Shamhat, would Gilgamesh have sent a wordly equivalent of the Bull of Heaven?>Tablet 7Don't know what to think of Enkidu's death yet. On one hand the Gods condemn him to death for Gilgamesh's hubris but on the other he gets what he wants, that is to be remembered for ever for his might.Reminded me of how Achilles often said how he wanted to conquer Troy before he died and he ended up dying while scaling Troy's walls. But his true wish to be remembered for ever was fulfilled.I don't think that Enkidu's death should be interpreted as a punishment for Enkidu. I'm a bit confused of how sexuality is presented but I'm gonna stay with my initial interpretation.Sexual relations as presented are a way for the person partaking to be initialized into the woman's tribe.That in Enkidu's case means to find a companion in Gilgamesh, and in Gilgamesh's case results in hubris by rejecting initiation into the pantheon.
(DIR) Post #AT9Tl8k3KOgsLEOvfk by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-28T22:19:34.631077Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@laurel @renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja Gilgamesh is setting the tone and pattern for all the epics that will come after it. The fact that it looks just like the younger generation of Olympian gods complaining to their father is no accident.There's something going on with the sexual mores evident in this story that make them difficult for us to interpret today. There's something definitely there. The implications are potentially massive.gjlgamesh 2 lip.jpg
(DIR) Post #AT9Tlv9DM9L2TAXhYW by FruitpilledPeachcel@cawfee.club
2023-02-28T22:19:40.595808Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@laurel @kakkerel @renai @shedinja Wasn't it stated that Ishtar's previous partners were turned into animals? IIRC Gilgamesh refuses her because of this. Very justifiable imo.
(DIR) Post #AT9TuDZuiQ6ZwozHX6 by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-28T22:21:13.026305Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @renai @shedinja Some of them transformed into animals. Some of them were animals already, and now they're just animals with more problems than they used to have. Ishtar isn't picky.This is one of the takeaways about success as a woman. Being insufficiently picky is dooming the success of man after man that you're forced to maim and then abandon.
(DIR) Post #ATAajoGyq5InPE4jxY by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-01T11:12:28.993472Z
5 likes, 2 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @renai @shedinja Tablet 8Funeral of Enkidu. I just have a few notes"She shall weep for you, the wet-nurseWho used to put butter on your lowers parts.">My sense is that in a narrative that doesn't decline from talking about animals rutting, this probably isn't what it sounds like."He covered his friend's face like a daughter-in-law.">What an expression.He circled over him like an eagle,>Like something to be hunted and killedLike a lioness whose cubs are trapped in a pit,>Contrasted with something highly desirable to be protected, both predatory animals, thoughHe paced back and forth.He tore out and spoilt well-curled hair,He stripped off and threw away finery as if it were taboo>Typical funerary practice of antiquity. In places where it was socially unacceptable for men to behave this way, they would sometimes hire mourners, women, who would do this on their behalfWhen the first light of dawn appeared, Gilgamesh sent out a shout through the land.The smith, the [], the coppersmith, the silversmith, the jeweller (were summoned).He made [a likeness] of his friend, he fashioned a statue of his friend.The four limbs of the friend were [made of ]his chest was of lapis lazuliHis (?) skin was gold [ ]>It's not really a stretch to imagine constructing a likeness of a deceased relative. I feel like there's more than that going on here, nevertheless.gilgamesh_by_artozi-d858iqt.jpg
(DIR) Post #ATAbMSlIkZDXz6gmrw by Arkana@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-01T11:19:28.130167Z
4 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @renai @shedinja I've been enjoying you all go through this and as a side note, there was apparently some news of Gilgamesh's tomb being found at Iraq in 2003http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2982891.stmThere is this video too, but it looks quite fake, the 2nd part of it with the man lying down at least.754737347.mp4
(DIR) Post #ATAbeUNBV0DqC40JUm by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-01T11:22:43.597396Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Arkana @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @renai @shedinja So the article and the video are from the same "find?"
(DIR) Post #ATAbv3f63zmAH1HcUy by Arkana@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-01T11:25:43.268635Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @renai @shedinja I have no idea when those videos were taken, but the 1st part definitely looks like it could have been in the early 2000's
(DIR) Post #ATAc9qWdBerxsJNJ7A by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-01T11:28:23.624498Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Arkana @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @renai @shedinja I feel like Bigfoot enthusiasts at least have the good sense to take grainy videos and photographs.
(DIR) Post #ATAgzgbLjEUpyIYZPM by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-01T12:22:34.955130Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja quite a simple chapter, mainly listing different things gilgamesh had made to honour enkidu. the similarity in the way he's acting to achilles over patroclus's death is pretty clear. a little breather after the excitement and important events we've just gone through.gilgamesh wants the whole world to seep with mourning."clad in the skin of [a lion i shall wander] the wild."
(DIR) Post #ATAj3HlqBsSy1jJ9aC by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-01T12:45:38.592010Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja Also cross-reference Herakles with the lion skin.
(DIR) Post #ATAnF24mleKqdw1fuK by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-01T13:32:35.172964Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja and the music. sorry i just love this piece even if it's played a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvOo0cS8w10
(DIR) Post #ATCQgvxKXy0kti1928 by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-02T08:29:20.133961Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @kakkerel @laurel @shedinja music for tablet 9: https://youtu.be/U-pVz2LTakM
(DIR) Post #ATCglapQ7n0G5OYrDs by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-02T11:29:27.486519Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja Tablet 9Not much to say here.Scorpion man and scorpion woman."Gilgamesh mourned bitterly for Enkidu his friend.And roamed open country.'Shall I die too? Am I not like Enkedu?Grief has entered my innermost being,I am afraid of Death, and so I roam open country.">Like a restless spirit. Being afraid is like being dead already."I raised my head, I prayed to Sin.">Nanna is her other name. Babylonian goddess of the moon. Where we get the term Inanna-Ishtar--Moon-and-Star. Take of that imagery what you will."The name of the mountain is Mashu.When he reached the mountain of MashuWhich daily guards the coming out of Shamash--">Shamash, the embodiment of the sun, has a peculiar association with mountains."The scorpion-man's woman answered him,'To Thirds of him is divine, and one third of him is mortal.">I love that to the scorpion people, Gilgamesh is the weirdo."Nobody has passed through the mountain's inaccessible tract.For even after twelve leagues []the Darkness is too dense, there is no light...">Death and rebirth, Shangri-La?>The journey that follows intimates death and the traverse through erebus. Concludes with peculiar and spectacular examples of beauty.11d45d51f0a3ca185992f77f4434f86bf8c0de5b3dc8f2cb75782c10aa177ff1.jpg
(DIR) Post #ATCkbrwI3HMA4iORRA by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-02T12:12:31.256258Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja so tablet 9. this is my favorite one so far. "For his friend Enkidu Gilgamesh did bitterly weep as he wandered the wild: 'I shall die, and shall I not then be as Enkidu? Sorrow has entered my heart! 'I am afraid of death, so I wander the wild"heart-wrenching stuff. there is such a fundamental emptiness after losing enkidu, even though the time they knew each other was short. i think that people are still able to form these types of attachments in the modern day, only it's been so disincentivized by the proliferation of certain mental images in connection with those attachments, along with sometimes purposeful misinterpretations of historical and mythical relationships of the type shown in gilgamesh. after the initial grief subsides gilgamesh is faced with a stark reminder of his own mortality in the loss of a loved one. he wanders the wild contemplating all this, and the physical image of him facing a pride of lions is a symbol of his mental state and what he's facing metaphysically. nevertheless he gains courage from the moon and slays the lions. until now the sun has been the driving force behind gilgamesh, but the switch to the moon could mean many things. maybe he's looking to divine entities of the lunar sort, or it's reflecting his fundamentally split nature of two-thirds god. the momentary change to lunar forces has dense symbolism, and i might return to it later.he quickly regains his bearing after shamash calls out to him again. the scorpion men along with shamash himself are clearly a masculine symbol, in their specific case focusing on aggression and loyalty. gilgamesh's next task is again one of darkness, going away from the sun for a second time and indeed racing it. he barely makes it to a divine garden of jewels. this chapter could be a symbol itself of something called 'the wet path', a way of initiation that involves dissolving yourself in the world and regathering the parts to gain higher powers.
(DIR) Post #ATCtyAKsPNv2QdQwmO by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-02T13:57:23.744495Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja >he quickly regains his bearing after shamash calls out to him again. the scorpion men along with shamash himself are clearly a masculine symbol, in their specific case focusing on aggression and loyalty. gilgamesh's next task is again one of darkness, going away from the sun for a second time and indeed racing it. he barely makes it to a divine garden of jewels. this chapter could be a symbol itself of something called 'the wet path', a way of initiation that involves dissolving yourself in the world and regathering the parts to gain higher powers.There's a passage from "Death, War, and Sacrifice" that deals specifically with this. Although the theme is more the purification of the soul rising to paradise.
(DIR) Post #ATDhFElg4tqEqsjuoC by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-02T23:09:31.622715Z
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@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @renai @shedinja >sometimes hire mourners, women,This was pretty common until very recently in Greece and Southern Italy. It would take the form of mourning songs sung by old women.
(DIR) Post #ATDhgvsRuITAN674F6 by laurel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-02T23:14:31.938167Z
3 likes, 2 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @kakkerel @shedinja Very nice piece.I too enjoyed this chapter very much.It is expressing Gilgamesh's grief much more intensely than the Funeral tablet did.Gilgamesh's fear of death and stated goal show how much he has changed.>[I am seeking] the [road] of my forefather, Uta-napishti, IX 75 who attended the gods' assembly, and [found life eternal:] of death and life [he shall tell me the secret.]'He really might be heading towards the underworld.
(DIR) Post #ATEuOj3MLCBBwqpC4m by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-03T13:11:37.094426Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@laurel @renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja Book 10"The alewife looked at him and locked her door,She locked her door, locked it with a bolt.Then he, Gilgamesh, noticed []Raised his chin and [ ]Gilgamesh spoke to her, to the alewife;'Alewife why did you look at me and lock your door,Lock your door, locked it with a bolt?I will smash the door, I will shatter the bolt!">This is how I met my wife, incidentally."Shamash the warrior is the only one who has crossed the sea: apart from Shamash, nobody has crossed the sea.">Perhaps they mean Shamash the literal embodiment of the sun is the only one who has crossed this ocean. Because the sun naturally sets beyond the horizon every day. Ancient tradition held that the sun would pass beyond the horizon and, sometimes being conceived as being submerged in the ocean, would descend into Hades and cast light on the dead. This is like saying, "Ain't no-one crossed that ocean, not even birds, but the sun in the sky." But she uses the term "Shamash the warrior." How bizarre. I don't know how to read it. "Why are your cheeks wasted, your face dejected,>I don't know if this implies that Gilgamesh is merely haggard or that he is literally dead or even a wandering spiritYour heart so wretched, your appearance worn out,And grief in your innermost being?Your face is like that of a long-distance traveller.Your face is weather by cold and heat []Clad only in a lionskin, you roam the open country.">I wonder what else we can take from the lion-skin repetitions. I've mentioned before associations with Herakles. But in consideration of his haggard appearance, I wonder if there's meant to be some lugubrious rather than glorious association with lions. Perhaps something like become spoil for lions?"The fate of mortals conquered him!">What a succinct and condensed way of saying it."For six days and seven nights I wept over him; I did not allow him to be buried until a worm fell out of his nose>Gross. Body was allowed to sit long enough for serious signs of decomposition to manifest. Sign of outrageous and self-destructive grief and mourning. Unwillingness to let go. "If Enkidu should die [and be buried], then by necessity I too must one day die." I can't help thinking that if he should die while traveling that he would be spared the grace of a proper burial, and if that's something he seeks. Not merely as a form of repentance but also to avoid being in another way like Enkidu."My friend whom I love has been turned to clay">Clay again in reference to the body.I am entirely unclear what Gilgamesh is doing with the stripped poles he brought on the boat with him, if anyone wants to enlighten me. There seems to be some failure with an absence of the "things of stone," and as a consequence the boatman appears to fail to take in whatever appears in the distance. Implication that Gilgamesh is cursed?"Ut-napishtim spoke to him, to Gilgamesh,>Cross-reference with other ferryman of the afterlife. I think very clearly with a figure like Charon who's willing to entertain Gilgamesh but fundamentally isn't willing to break divine taboos on his behalf. How many conversations has Herakles had with Charon?'Why do you prolong grief, Gilgamesh?Since the gods made you from the flesh of gods and mankind,Since the gods made you life your father and mother,Death is inevitable at some point, both for Gilgamesh and for a fool,But a throne is set down for you in the assembly []To a fool is given dregs instead of butter,>Telling him to accept his lot favorably, especially in consideration of how favorably destiny has treated him, especially when contrasted to the general lot of mankind...You have made yourself weary for lack of sleep,You only fill your flesh with grief,You only bring the distant days of reckoning closerMankind's fame is cut down like reeds in a reed-bed.>Facts of life....Nobody sees death,Nobody sees the face of Death.Savage Death just cuts mankind down.>More facts of life....But then the river rises and brings flood-waterDragonflies drift on the river,Their faces look upon the face of the Sun,But then suddenly there is nothing.The sleeping and the dead are just like each other.>Lovely imagery. All living things gaze upon the face of the sun. And in the next instant they're gone. Cross reference Bhagavad Gita: The Supreme Lord said: I am mighty Time, the source of destruction that comes forth to annihilate the worlds. Even without your participation, the warriors arrayed in the opposing army shall cease to exist....They appointed death and life.They did not mark out days for death,But they did so for life.">I'm not precisely certain what this means.gilgamesh-enkidu.jpg
(DIR) Post #ATEymBCUFvZXiqX7tQ by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-03T14:00:40.633297Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @laurel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja i think the lion-pelt thing is representative of him abandoning his duties as king. he's left completely and doesn't know if he'll go back, roaming in the wilderness like a lion.
(DIR) Post #ATF0uRGEcwrnl3LuBE by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-03T14:24:34.796745Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@kakkerel @laurel @FruitpilledPeachcel @shedinja and music for book 10, also one of my favorite pieces ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0nlJXooIVc
(DIR) Post #ATFCZRG8dXc97c3mRE by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-03T16:35:14.696470Z
3 likes, 2 repeats
@kakkerel @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja [Six days I wept for him and seven nights.][I did not surrender his body for burial,][until a maggot dropped from his nostril.] arrian: "[Alexander] flung himself on the body of his friend and lay there nearly all day long in tears, and refused to be parted from him until he was dragged away by force by his Companions", talking about hephaestion's death. i've thought a lot about these lately.gilgamesh is asked three times by separate people why he looks so physically degraded and sad, and him giving the same explanation every time. he quite literally went to the ends of the earth in search of uta-napishti neglecting sleep and any care for himself. now he's reached him, and he still hears the same answer. gilgamesh has to remember his duty and reign prudently in this life, seeing everything through. wandering in the wilderness won't do any good for anyone so while he's still alive he should try to live happily and do good. after all there isn't much else anyone can do."Ever do we build our households,ever do we make our nests,ever do brothers divide their inheritance,ever do feuds arise in the land."
(DIR) Post #ATFKs0gST1s7pojmD2 by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-03T18:08:14.488018Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja >arrian: "[Alexander] flung himself on the body of his friend and lay there nearly all day long in tears, and refused to be parted from him until he was dragged away by force by his Companions", talking about hephaestion's death. i've thought a lot about these lately.Description also similar to the death of Cyrus the Younger, whose bodyguards threw themselves one after the other onto his wounded body to protect him from the Persian King, according to Xenophon. Also I didn't know you read Arrian. Never actually met anyone that did. Arrian is a good read.
(DIR) Post #ATGWaJLfj7Cj7NIlOq by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-04T07:54:12.861694Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @kakkerel @laurel @shedinja tablet 11. the last one. https://youtu.be/8UTq1eZrDkI
(DIR) Post #ATGXMuP3GJBBwN3VTc by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-04T08:02:59.833376Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@FruitpilledPeachcel @kakkerel @laurel @shedinja some alternative music too, neglect the previous one actually and just listen to these. https://youtu.be/DuBexGEe1S4https://youtu.be/VJ6DEPU5058https://youtu.be/t55_9fHcJx8
(DIR) Post #ATGZ8g3Q0vshIBHKfQ by Soy_Magnus@detroitriotcity.com
2023-03-04T08:22:49.819951Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @kakkerel @laurel @shedinja https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvcVBbOomKg&pp=ygUkYXN0b3IgcGlhenpvbGxhIGxpYmVydGFuZ28gYWNjb3JkaW9u
(DIR) Post #ATH03yzire1zLiXHOK by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-04T13:24:31.315286Z
4 likes, 2 repeats
@Soy_Magnus @renai @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja "Man of Shuruppak, son of Ubara-Tutu,Dismantle your house, build a boat.Leave the possessions, search out living things.Reject chattels and save lives!Put aboard the seed of all living things, into the boat.">Ut-napishtim as Noah analog"The boat you are to buildShall have her dimensions in proportion,Her width and length shall be in harmony,Roof her like the Apsu.">Apsu appears to be a primeval sea below the void space of the both the earth and the underworld. I'm getting reminiscences of references to the ark being an analog to the Church."And I cannot set foot on Ellil's land again.I must go down to the Apsu and stay with my master Ea.">Ea is the ritual god of purification. Ea is also the parent to the Babylonian savior-deity Marduk.>Rather elaborate description of the construction of this ark."Shamash had fixed the hour.">Certainly the sun's place in the sky is the hour."The Anunnaki had to carry torches,">Appear to be referenced as a collection of sky gods. Do they mean stars, here?"The calm before the Storm-god came over the sky,">Perhaps I was right."Even the gods were afraid of the flood-weapon.They withdrew; they went up to the heaven of Anu.The gods cowered, like dogs crouched by an outside wall.Ishtar screamed like a woman giving birth;The Mistress of the Gods, sweet of voice, was wailing,'Has that time really returned to clay,Because I spoke evil in the gods' assembly?">I'm not quite sure what to say about this. Again reference to clay. Again reference to the world returning to a primordial stage. It looks like the general populace has been wiped out in the storm. The gods themselves are terrified of their own sin, feeling such amount of complicity for the tragedy....I should have ordered a battle to destroy my people;I myself gave birth to them, they are my own people,Yet they fill the sea like fish spawn!>Intimation now of a new way in which heaven is going to order created reality.>7 days the boat held firm on a mountain. Referenced again as the 7 day vigil Gilgamesh completely fails to undertake.>Releasing of birds."But let Ellil not come to the surqinnu-offering,Because he did not consult before imposing the flood,">Hmm"What sort of life survived? No man should have lived through the destruction!"Ninurta made his voice heard and spoke,He said to the warrior Ellil."Who other than Ea would have done such a thing?For Ea can do everything.">Hmm. Hmm. I honestly don't want to give away what I'm thinking. Ark. Ea's specific association with purification. Like we have the structure in place for a vision of salvation."So how, O how, could you fail to consult, and impose the flood?Punish the sinner for his sin, punish the criminal for his crime,But ease off, let work not cease; be patient, let not []Instead of imposing a flood, let a lion come up and diminish the people.Instead of imposing a flood, let a wolf come up and diminish the people.Instead of imposing a flood, let a famine be imposed and lessen the land.Instead of imposing a flood, let Erra rise up and savage the people.">In light of current events, I probably needed to see this. If the gods themselves should be so terrified to witness an end of creation, I probably shouldn't wish for it either, even if the state of men is lamentable.>References back to what Ishtar said. Indicating the way in which heaven should dispense corrections to creation."He touched our foreheads, stood between us, blessed us:'Until now, Ut-napishtim was mortal,But henceforth Ut-napishtim and his woman shall be as we gods are.>Salvation. If you're not thinking "Noah" there's probably something wrong with you. I'm also having reminiscences of Saint Paul talking about marriage.>Gilgamesh falls asleep for seven days rather than maintaining a seven day vigil. Helpless sinfulness of man is indicated."For a start, bake a daily portion for him, put it each time by his head,">Give us this day our daily bread.>I said this story was pregnant with meaning."Take him, Ur-shanabi, bring him to a wash-bowl,And let him wash in water his filthy hair, as clean as possible.Let him throw away his skins, and let the sea carry them off.Let his body be soaked until it is fresh.">Cross reference Lethe, the waters of forgetfulness. Cross-reference also baptism."A snake smelt the fragrance of the plant.As it toko it away, it shed its scaly skin.Thereupon Gilgamesh sat down and wept.His tears flowed over his cheeks.">A literal snake carries away the secret of eternal life, which is a plant. Come on. This is too easy.gilgamesh (1).jpggilgamesh2.jpgHérosmaîtrisantunlion.jpg
(DIR) Post #ATHtU5ayRLHQpUQAXg by renai@freespeechextremist.com
2023-03-04T23:45:31.001249Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@kakkerel @Soy_Magnus @FruitpilledPeachcel @laurel @shedinja "I was fully intent on making you fight,but now in your presence my hand is stayed. "the place where uta-napishti lives is in some way enchanted. even his presence stops gilgamesh from attacking him, and from the time he arrives there he's starting to mend his ways, become receptive to people's words of advice. as a sign of the change in his mental state he's given robes that won't get dirty on his return journey."The stillness of the Storm God passed over the sky,and all that was bright then turned into darkness. ""Even the gods took fright at the Deluge,they left and went up to the heaven of Anu,lying like dogs curled up in the open."i like how gods are presented in such different ways. they're fighting with each other and getting scared and doing things in secret. it's quite whimsical. the thing nietzsche touted about the ancient world was that you could choose which one of these gods to worship and sacrifice to.the number seven comes up several times."I looked at the weather, it was quiet and still,but all the people had turned to clay.The flood plain was flat like the roof of a house.1 opened a vent, on my cheeks fell the sunlight."what a lifelike description. i don't know how else to say it but the image of sunlight falling on his cheeks after a week inside the ark probably going through all kinds of emotions is so visceral, i love it.gilgamesh did gain immortality, even if for a second. or possibly the plant only makes youthful and eventually you'd run out of branches. a cruel twist of fate robs him of even this comfort.in the end, the main thing gilgamesh gained by making this whole journey was knowledge about himself. the ending, however, with its note of everything ultimately having stayed the same kind of reminds me of candide: "That is well put, but we must cultivate our garden."