Post ASwTob69pVHA6LuTyq by debs@saturation.social
(DIR) More posts by debs@saturation.social
(DIR) Post #ASgYmzCIeLj3VQTWYi by jkottke@saturation.social
2023-02-14T23:20:53Z
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Perhaps online mass discourse is just doomed – people often default to being aggressive and argumentative right away, even over the most innocuous stuff. Disagreement is fine but many seemingly well-meaning people just come out with guns blazing when they perceive that someone is wrong, saying things in a way they would never do IRL. I know it's not new, but it's still really disheartening to watch and experience.
(DIR) Post #ASgYmzpIJMuxSMifL6 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-14T23:28:36Z
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@jkottke Yeah, I've long felt it's the "mass" part in "online mass discourse" that never workI've poked my nose into hundreds, maybe *thousands* of online communities in the 25-odd years I've been reporting about the Internet"Community size" and "quality of speech" have an almost perfectly inverse relationshipThe smaller communities have tummlers, folks who play a catalytic role in keeping quality highBig ones don't; *can't*
(DIR) Post #ASgZ0qx86GaVzPzYJM by cvnt@freespeechextremist.com
2023-02-14T23:31:48.844255Z
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@jkottke > would never do IRLlol, lmao.
(DIR) Post #ASgZL1lhb5llKFGagK by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-14T23:31:01Z
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@jkottke @debs, @heathr and @KevinMarks taught me about the existence, role and value of tummelers in their wonderful tummelvision podcast, back in the day: http://tummelvision.tv/
(DIR) Post #ASgiFi9vyXPUeG8mlU by heathr@octodon.social
2023-02-15T01:14:25Z
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@clive Thanks Clive. Hi Jason! @jkottke @debs @KevinMarks
(DIR) Post #ASgihdpxdeYdLs7I5w by heathr@octodon.social
2023-02-15T01:19:32Z
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@clive @jkottke Jason it *is* possible to have a conversation with a larger room ..I've hosted them many times...but there's plenty of things you need to do to make it work, to create conditions for success. The social spaces we have, including mastodon are *not* created by people who have first practiced this IRL and so much depends upon who is there first and what their skills and assumptions are. White guy tech is unlikely to birth a great large diverse conversational space for a multitude of reasons. Also, trauma is a factor. Here's some lessons I learned from the work and performance I've done. Many thanks to @KevinMarks for having me.@debs @KevinMarks
(DIR) Post #ASwTob69pVHA6LuTyq by debs@saturation.social
2023-02-22T15:48:02Z
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@KevinMarks @clive @jkottke @heathr Hi gang!Let’s define mass and conversation - you can set tone and engage meaningfully in pretty large spaces - with an understanding that there are smaller convos happening within larger ones and Tummelers who do this to make it work at a larger scale. We need better features/tools for them. Mass scale is tougher. Do we even have mass conversations IRL? Metaphor: Artists set tone in stadiums and smaller groups converse.
(DIR) Post #ASwcM7ACQrWKjuIHE8 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-22T17:23:42Z
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@debs @KevinMarks @jkottke @heathr Yes, this is a damn interesting line of inquiry!I think when I say "mass" I tend to mean "millions of people jammed into a social network or otherwise public online forum, each one able to crash each other's threads and conversations"But this may be an overly edge definition of "mass" 😅
(DIR) Post #ASwdHGqv55shIOWvCq by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
2023-02-22T17:33:55Z
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@clive @debs @jkottke @heathr ”There are in fact no masses, only ways of seeing people as masses” as Raymond Williams said. http://artsites.ucsc.edu/faculty/gustafson/FILM%20162.W10/readings/Williams.Ordinary.pdf
(DIR) Post #ASwjtuVGhyRt02D8C0 by heathr@octodon.social
2023-02-22T18:47:29Z
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@clive none of the social media platforms we have were designed by people with expertise in large scale conversation or even small group conversation.These are manipulation focused systems built for the idea of scale, not the reality of connection. Most people just strive for connection no matter what.You can scale decent conversation with tummeling depending on the situation. I’ve done it a lot. Even the metaphors used by twitter and mastodon are about broadcast, not connection.
(DIR) Post #ASwkG06qXswYl1JyKW by heathr@octodon.social
2023-02-22T18:51:35Z
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@clive the issue is *not* the size of the gathering of people, it is the intention and design of the place and how is is or isn’t hosted / tummeled.Social media does not have to look or act as it does now.It reflects the priorities and limitations of its funders and creators.Growth to millions doesnt have to 1. Be the goal2. Happen the way it’s been happening.The idea that an experience building a mapping app would have anything to do with creating a functioning social space is ludicrous. But the funders of Post and many more aren’t interested in functioning social space.
(DIR) Post #ASwko9yaMqoXCjkHVQ by heathr@octodon.social
2023-02-22T18:52:48Z
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Big ones *can.* Not the big ones we have and “bigness” won’t work as the first goal.So why look at that first?
(DIR) Post #ASwkoAbE3Bir8Zp8jY by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-22T18:58:23Z
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@heathr Is it really true that size isn't *an* issue?I 100% agree with you that growth to millions, or happen the metastatic way it's been happeningI'm making a possibly smaller claim: That there might be an upper limit on the number of people that can be involved in any given conversation
(DIR) Post #ASwl0UZBdg2yXUkIcq by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-22T19:00:12Z
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@heathr I think the reason I look at size pretty quickly -- not necessarily first, but quickly -- is it seems a critical design issue (certainly not the only one, but a significant one) that determines whether or not tummelling can take place
(DIR) Post #ASwlNtcCftcQt2JhHE by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-22T19:04:50Z
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@heathr Yep yep -- this issue of broadcast, and the ill effects that fall out of that, is really key
(DIR) Post #ASwmHqGAKyD4hFga2q by heathr@octodon.social
2023-02-22T19:14:55Z
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@clive I don’t think it does. One way to see how it’s not the cause of breakdown:Kathy Sierra was driven off twitter and the Net by Nazi Weev long before millions.The choices that enabled that, and did nothing about it have much more to do with the problems we face than just pure size. And as @KevinMarks was pointing out you can involve huge numbers without everyone being treated as a mass. The early critical design issues are *the goal of the thing* and the knowledge of how to create safe inclusive social space IRL.Honestly, white guys are not leading that realm of expertise, but you know you’re hearing that from a lesbian performance artist who came out in an era in which we had to learn what “safe space” is before we could get a date.
(DIR) Post #ASwmWW9DObM8fDQsYC by heathr@octodon.social
2023-02-22T19:17:35Z
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@clive it’s near the top.Also the ranking and the recommended “follow.” All the “celebrity” stuff. As I often said on Tummelvision, the ranking stuff guaranteed what happened to Digg. I just didn’t see how much worse it could be.Making connections is the opposite of broadcast “influence” and manipulation. And bots. And Nazis. And information warfare.Who is there early means everything. That’s another thing Mastodon can’t overcome, though it has other elements that can be helpful.
(DIR) Post #ASwmf5U9tWcUZwJbPs by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-22T19:18:42Z
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@heathr @KevinMarks Yep yep -- you can have terrible behavior in small(er) groupings too!
(DIR) Post #ASwmo7Z9WpMBdaxUwq by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-22T19:20:17Z
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@heathr Yeah, Mastodon is essentially similar enough to Twitter etc that its deviations from traditional-social media design are good and welcome, but ... it isn't really a significan rethinking
(DIR) Post #ASwnAlYfWFCa2fWw7M by heathr@octodon.social
2023-02-22T19:24:56Z
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@clive no it’s not. And there’s been a lot of drive on twitter from folks for a kind of a copy.But I don’t think it will ultimately work in copy.I also think it could be very interesting for something to be publicly funded which is what I spoke and tummeled about at YLE in Finland many years back. I saw the fellow who brought me bring up the idea again recently.Also, of course, tummeling and beginning with that! I’ve done a little work on it with someone.I think there are some very good options that could be tried.