Post ASkPsVJWXxgXbeFa3E by mjgardner@social.sdf.org
(DIR) More posts by mjgardner@social.sdf.org
(DIR) Post #ASkMxlOLth8d3YKCnI by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T18:32:08Z
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If you make websites for a living, know that you are *extremely likely* to be wealthier than the people on whose devices your code will run. This matters to *how* that code runs.Let's say you're a webdev in the US, building for the US market exclusively. There's huge variability in cost of living across geos, but even so, Indeed shows a an average base salary for a webdev of ~$80K/yr:https://www.indeed.com/career/web-developer/salariesMedian* household* income, meanwhile, is closer to $70K/yr:https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/SEX255221
(DIR) Post #ASkMxm3TQo2175Z2tE by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T18:34:26Z
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This might not sound like a big gap, but recall that *most* US households are dual-earner:https://www.pewresearch.org/ft_dual-income-households-1960-2012-2/This means that you *very likely* make 2x or more than *most* of your adult users.But then there are kids and the elderly. If they're potential users, they'll skew income data further.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxmiaxuvPAcnszA by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T18:38:43Z
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Now, let's say you decided to rebrand in the Lost Decade as "JavaScript developer"; you feel pretty comfortable packing those webs -- what does it do to the equation? A LOT:https://www.indeed.com/career/javascript-developer/salariesWhen I go on about how JS cultists have cost companies more for worse outcomes, this is what I'm talking about. A 35% cost premium, which pushes the income of these folks *as individuals* to be ~50% higher than most households, and more than 2.5x the median dual-income earner.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxncFczRbxEqKjg by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T18:44:07Z
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A 2.5x difference in earnings is a huge difference in life experience. Developers may not realise how different those experiences are because they don't go looking for them, but it's in their data if they cared to investigate.*Most* users do not have fast laptops or phones, even in the US.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxoHNA6L00m5Apc by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T18:46:23Z
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This is, in part, due to differences in replacement rate. If you, as a developer, have a laptop that's more than 3 years old and cost less than $700 new, odds are you're pretty anxious about it. Can't pack many webs on that.But as a user? That's just *the average*. Real-world gets slower from there. Edge telemetry shows that something close to half of our users are on HDDs, not SSDs.When was the last time *you* booted from spinning rust?
(DIR) Post #ASkMxp2sJUKqO6J6sC by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T18:52:40Z
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HDDs correlate heavily with lower core counts, and generally signal slower (older) cores, all of which have a big impact on desktop performance related to your web apps. Browsers are heavily threaded today, and fewer cores means less performance on JS-heavy sites *in particular*.Less expensive phones, meanwhile, tend to feature MANY cores, but the also tend to suck. A lot:https://infrequently.org/2022/12/performance-baseline-2023/#devices-1
(DIR) Post #ASkMxq2Yc9fvTPAN16 by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:02:13Z
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Lower income also correlates with increased network latency. In the US, this is maps onto persistent income and wealth disparities between white and (specifically) black communities. Digital redlining is now A Thing:https://themarkup.org/still-loading/2022/10/19/dollars-to-megabits-you-may-be-paying-400-times-as-much-as-your-neighbor-for-internet-serviceWhen data is expensive and slow, you use less of it.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxqbeVfkREFaOie by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:07:18Z
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The digital divide has a colour, and it is being excavated and widened by the actions of a well-paid upper crust that bear none of the consequences of their actions.Wealth acts as a blanket, keeping those wrapped in it from feeling the chill as they open the windows and turn down the heating for everyone else.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxrFi6jn5EUKO9o by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:15:43Z
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All of the data in this thread is from the US where inequality is a problem, but is not at its worst worldwide:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficientTechnology has broken down borders in many ways, which now means that the merely 2.5x wealthier JS bros in the US may make 20-50x more than users in other geographies:https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-countryPPP is a thing:https://data.oecd.org/conversion/purchasing-power-parities-ppp.htmBut even with that caveat, $108K/yr US income is still 6-7x the effective median salary in India.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxrt3kRGZCWjoUS by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:18:50Z
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...and that's before we consider the lower price differences of electronics vs. services and other sorts of local goods. Phones and laptops are *expensive* in much of the world, which is why Android accounts for 80+% of device shipments and the average selling price, worldwide, continues to hover near $300 (new, unlocked) even as high-end devices accelerate in price. There are just that many more sub-$300 devices being sold for every trade-up of a wealthy user from a $400 to a $1K phone.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxsXpIrsNExoN28 by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:20:06Z
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So when you export technology that was barely working in the US to other markets, it's a *disaster*. And the JS bros take no responsibility for the predictable (and predicted) consequences of their actions.Instead, they have continued to spread the (always false) narrative that CPUs are getting faster and that people can afford the JS they're sending.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxt7HB4ET0uOgHw by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:27:13Z
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Which brings me to the argument that *really* makes me wince; the one @seldo et. al. seem to be falling back into: that everyone knows what they're doing, so it's fine.This bears no resemblance to the conversations I've had with teams.Managers and TLs are universally shocked and upset to learn their JS-bro-special stack is losing them tons of money that the "legacy" site didn't. Further, they have none of the collateral one would expect if it was explicit (a financial model).
(DIR) Post #ASkMxtkcolhwywo6ca by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-16T19:34:40Z
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@slightlyoff Instead of conversations with teams I rely on a survey of tens of thousands of developers that I've been running for 5+ years now. People love using React. Either everybody is really happy even though React is really bad, or React's actually fine, and I choose the latter as overwhelmingly more likely, because I do not think web developers are morons.
(DIR) Post #ASkMxttqGV53RX7SzI by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:29:47Z
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@seldo But even if you thought that was a just the plural of anecdote, we should be able, on first principles, to reject the idea that these technologies should have a market outside the wealthiest geos.I see no such education about these supposedly explicit tradeoffs (is it tribal knowledge that spreads by osmosis?), and yet there is furious advocacy *for* these inappropriate systems in the various places where they make no sense.This suggests, instead, a furious backfill of rationalisation
(DIR) Post #ASkMxupcnfIkKk9c3M by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:31:35Z
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Nevermind the minor problem of them *also* being pitched into the public sector without any sort of reflection or guardrail.Are only *some* users supposed to be able to get to government services? The "right" users? The "good" residents and citizens?What sort of elitist, classist bullshit is that, exactly?
(DIR) Post #ASkMxvdbnpHeplXWxk by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:34:53Z
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So let's stop beating around the bush: the JS community sold lemons at a furious rate, are embarassed about the terrible consequences of their predictable (and predicted) actions -- as well they should be -- and want you to continue to pretend they knew what they were doing all along.Friends, Occam's Razor suggests they did not.
(DIR) Post #ASkN5v9dU41TeRKb6e by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-16T19:36:08Z
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@slightlyoff This is absolutely not the simplest explanation. The simplest explanation is that everybody else is right and you, and only you, are incorrect about the net benefits of React.
(DIR) Post #ASkNXLkGjBR5wLXrE0 by mjgardner@social.sdf.org
2023-02-16T19:40:56Z
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@seldo @slightlyoff You’re surveying self-selecting developers. He’s talking about customers.
(DIR) Post #ASkNvzFxTh6LQp7E7U by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-16T19:45:33Z
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@mjgardner @slightlyoff his customers are also people who self-select for needing a consultant to help with their performance problems.
(DIR) Post #ASkPD30srZj3xblPBw by aluhrs@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:55:01Z
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@seldo @slightlyoff The two aren’t mutually exclusive? People love junk food that isn’t good for them.
(DIR) Post #ASkPl2154kpGiN3oWW by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-16T19:59:26Z
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@aluhrs @slightlyoff I didn't say it was good that they liked it! I explicitly said it would be better if they prioritized performance, and then explained the trade-offs that lead to them not doing that, and yet still Alex is arguing with a strawman who thinks frameworks are perfect. I don't think they're perfect, I think they're inescapable.
(DIR) Post #ASkPsVJWXxgXbeFa3E by mjgardner@social.sdf.org
2023-02-16T20:00:19Z
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@seldo @slightlyoff Which wouldn’t exist if… oh, never mind
(DIR) Post #ASkQ0QqT2qmS40RK4G by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T19:56:54Z
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@aluhrs @seldo "I believe the market has perfect information, which is why it isn't telling me it doesn't" is a hell of a drug
(DIR) Post #ASkQ0RWIXKF09k0jGi by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-16T20:00:23Z
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@slightlyoff @aluhrs Great, I'll ignore thousands of data points in favor of your set of customers who hire consultants for help with performance problems, that sounds like an unbiased sample to me.
(DIR) Post #ASkQN7lU9RoHXzvi8u by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T20:09:12Z
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@seldo @aluhrs Is your view that I believe that frameworks should not exist, or that when applied well, do not solve real problems?I'm literally out here trying to explain when/where they *do* make sense!
(DIR) Post #ASkQd7JnZz5mnObbiC by aluhrs@toot.cafe
2023-02-16T20:12:21Z
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@slightlyoff @seldo as a (probably biased) bystander I think you two are actually pretty close in opinion (albeit on opposite sides of the fence), but overly indexing on the delivery and some of the more minor supplemental points.
(DIR) Post #ASkQd7jg1lnC5eiH32 by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-16T20:14:43Z
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@aluhrs @slightlyoff I agree. I have so much respect for Alex's work and take issue almost solely with the delivery.
(DIR) Post #ASkUQ8rytrGhevf9SC by SnowdenShecretz@tech.lgbt
2023-02-16T20:57:59Z
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@seldo @aluhrs @slightlyoff As someone who has a lot of respect for you both, I think that's probably correct. Your biggest disagreement seems to be about whether or not developers know what they are getting into when they pick up a framework. And I have to say, I agree with Alex on that one. *Most* from web backgrounds seem to understand, but people from other backgrounds need bigger warning labels than they are getting now.
(DIR) Post #ASkhQhMTxUMA2QWbZI by fvsch@hachyderm.io
2023-02-16T23:23:48Z
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@seldo @slightlyoff It would be great if people could make an argument for this which is not handwavy. The game theory model was cute but there’s not much that shows it can be extrapolated to frontend development practices. And it supposes fast interactions in the environment, whereas I’ve been in many projects where it takes 3+ years for stakeholders to even start realizing the tradeoffs from their team’s technical choices.
(DIR) Post #ASlSnGMJDSF8nRhn28 by stooovie@mas.to
2023-02-17T08:14:36Z
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@seldo @mjgardner @slightlyoff no. You're talking about developers, Alex is talking about user base in general. The experiences are necessarily totally different. Nobody develops on dual-core i3 from 2011 with 2GB RAM.