Post ASi0W2c7gaH33ODpgG by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
(DIR) More posts by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
(DIR) Post #AShypO0CBmsaywZvns by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T15:55:42Z
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Randall Eliason (GW Law prof) has an interesting post:https://www.sidebarsblog.com/p/the-sleeper-charge-related-to-januaryHe says wire fraud is the easiest way to get Trump, and he has a good point. In a nutshell: This week we learned that Trump hired an outside research firm to bolster its claims of election fraud.They found nothing. He kept the results secret.Nonetheless, he raised more than $250 million from small donors for an “Official Election Defense Fund.”And . . . no such fund existed. 1/
(DIR) Post #AShyvGrddnuYa6Nkdk by valOrie@sfba.social
2023-02-15T15:56:46Z
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@Teri_Kanefield LET'S DO THIS!
(DIR) Post #AShyxMBcp7Y3fRj2Ce by ShaneB@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T15:57:08Z
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@Teri_Kanefield if I remember my five fingers correctly, that’s pretty straightforward…
(DIR) Post #AShz4SGobR8kYxXONc by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T15:58:26Z
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Randall notes that it's wire fraud is only tangentially related to trying to overturn an election, and it feels a bit like getting Al Capone on tax fraud, but it's a heck of a lot easier to prove than, say, seditious conspiracy.Randall also notes that prosecutors love wire fraud.Defense lawyers hate it.It also radically expands the power of federal law enforcement. We have 51 criminal jurisdictions (state + feds). . . sidebarsblog.com/p/the-sleeper-charge-related-to-january2/
(DIR) Post #AShzFCIcK4J6DPVEeW by failedLyndonLaRouchite@mas.to
2023-02-15T16:00:21Z
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@Teri_Kanefield I am pretty sure that people have been saying similar things now for months if not since the start of Trump 's term
(DIR) Post #AShzKQ7UMjv8WimvI0 by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:01:19Z
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The feds have jurisdiction over crimes that cross state lines, which is obviously limited.If you defraud your neighbor, that's local police and state law.If you commit the crime using the mail, email, telephones, etc. . . . enter wire fraud.The feds can take jurisdiction, which is what lets them get white collar crimes that evade local police (because nobody was in the room when it happened and the evidence is hard to get, and so is probable cause.)3/
(DIR) Post #AShzWAKmsj7h2mbp5c by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:03:26Z
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Randall notes that it's a lot easier to prove wire fraud than something like seditious conspiracy.(Commit fraud and send an email. Bang. You got it.)My experience: Prosecutors will often charge easy to prove crimes along with harder to prove crimes. They don't charge the easy stuff and forget the hard stuff (if they think they have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt) but the easy stuff assures them of a win.It also puts a lot of pressure on defendants . . . 4/
(DIR) Post #AShzXgkZqTbbrzOkL2 by pixelpusher220@universeodon.com
2023-02-15T16:03:43Z
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@Teri_Kanefield re: Capone he went to prison, everything I've read says Trump won't even if convicted bc of 'first offense' etc.Not understanding why the difference
(DIR) Post #AShzfO5f6eteJVvovY by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:05:06Z
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. . . because they know they're going down for something so they're more likely to try to cut a deal with the prosecution.(My friend Mark Reichel, a very experienced defense lawyer, calls it 'suing for peace' which is what you do when you know you're gonna lose.)Someone said "LET'S DO THIS"but for the strategy to work, they need the hard stuff ready to go.Trump won't cut a deal, but if everyone around him does . . . see how it gets easier?5/
(DIR) Post #AShzqHAHCCf21IHXKi by karabaic@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T16:07:04Z
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@Teri_Kanefield I’m skeptical. Election finance is more flexible than this, isn’t it? You can move money around to fit changing circumstances, and don’t need to spend it on what you mentioned in the appeal. Heck, even charities do this: remember the Red Cross fundraising on the Haiti earthquake and spending the money elsewhere?
(DIR) Post #AShztbJGkmFvMq4cwy by femme_mal@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T16:07:40Z
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@Teri_Kanefield The Al Capone approach. It worked in 1929, taking down a mob boss with tax evasion charges instead of murder and racketeering. Let's hope it works on this mobster with bad hair.
(DIR) Post #AShzvReTdGxNzcsApk by failedLyndonLaRouchite@mas.to
2023-02-15T16:08:00Z
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@Teri_Kanefield honestly, this begs the question:where the hell are the indictments ?it has been a long time now, even by the standards of the DoJ or the crimminal justice systemif it were that easy, wouldn't someone have done it ?
(DIR) Post #ASi0GcVgSP5JkZrBuy by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:11:51Z
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@karabaic Hi, Jack, this really has nothing to do with the election.He got results from a study. He knew the study was false. He raised money knowing the study was false. He didn't use the money the way he told people he would.Randall's point is that it's simple fraud.
(DIR) Post #ASi0W2c7gaH33ODpgG by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:14:38Z
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Someone just asked: "Isn't election finance more flexible than this?"Randall's point is that you don't charge it as election fraud. You charge it as simple wire fraud.Trump commissioned a study. He kept the results secret. He fundraised based on the results. He told donors he would use the money for X. He did not use the money for X.You don't need the election.You have the F word.(Fraud, silly. What did you think I meant?)6/
(DIR) Post #ASi0or4SpHlEkwRvjk by karabaic@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T16:18:00Z
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@Teri_Kanefield But it was fundraising governed by FEC rules, wasn’t it? And, as I point out, this kind of appeal is used frequently in other domains, such as charity fundraising. Money can be raised and spent for other legal purposes, as long as they’re not paying it to themselves. Courts are deferential to executives in this kind of thing, aren’t they?
(DIR) Post #ASi0u6u7O1BlJG7Gs4 by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:18:58Z
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@failedLyndonLaRouchite Look up the elements of fraud. I'd do it for you, but I'm answering another questionGoogle: Fraud elements(typing as fast as I can)
(DIR) Post #ASi1080kBT7QTp5KU4 by GregCirillo@newsie.social
2023-02-15T16:20:02Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Both F words apply.I remain on some Republican fundraising lists and I get daily emails from politicians asking for money in exchange for promises to act. Among them is Rand Paul's promise to fire Fauci -- something he has no power to do. Can't that be wire fraud? Or is there wiggle room to say it was shorthand for "let's irrationally hate Fauci together"?
(DIR) Post #ASi1K5LlmpwQ1FR5Um by failedLyndonLaRouchite@mas.to
2023-02-15T16:23:39Z
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@Teri_Kanefield oknot quite clear why this is taking so long, but I am learning that it normally takes prosecutors months and years to move almost anythinghttps://govt.westlaw.com/wciji/Document/I2cd1eacae10d11dab058a118868d70a9?transitionType=Default&contextData=%28sc.Default%29
(DIR) Post #ASi1LijKrFnuRaEpkW by WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud@masto.ai
2023-02-15T16:23:57Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Can't help but think of Costanza and the Human Fund.
(DIR) Post #ASi2B9GtwAuJWsSefo by McPatrick@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T16:33:15Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Sort of how justice caught up with Capone. Not for murder, etc, etc, etc—but for tax evasion.Some things are just easier to prove; more B&W.
(DIR) Post #ASi2HtgCJ3VhCNVl8S by DrewKadel@social.coop
2023-02-15T16:34:15Z
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@Teri_Kanefield But the defense will raise the defense that this is a PAC doing political fundraising & the tons of fine print allow diversion of the contributions. And Popehat frequently observes that specific intent is VERY hard to prove with Trump since meaningless blather & lies are just the fabric of his existence & everyone knows that.
(DIR) Post #ASi2Ue15qtd4NxMbNw by karabaic@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T16:30:36Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Oh, and he can claim he didn’t accept the study. That would be key to proving intent. Wasn’t that part of the failed shareholder climate lawsuits against Exxon in NY? Exxon had advanced knowledge—scarily accurate!—of the continuing use of fossil fuels. They used their business judgment & rejected it.
(DIR) Post #ASi2Uee5VuoyKtbkAK by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:36:46Z
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@karabaic D liesD intended to lie and knew it was a lieV replied on the statementV suffered damages (if you paid money you were damaged)No. If nothing else he lied about the existence of the fund.It doesn't matter if he didn't believe the study. He didn't disclose the existence of the study.If I come to your house and tell you that I will remove a tree and your house won't be damaged and I fail to tell you about a study that says otherwise . . . see?
(DIR) Post #ASi2Xzg1mCMuQr6iQa by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:37:22Z
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@DrewKadel I will answer this question at the end of the thread because I'm getting several questions like these.
(DIR) Post #ASi2gJk73WEaywzGQy by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:38:54Z
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I'm getting a lot of questions. Here's the thing about fraud: The elements are very straightforward.D = defendantV = victimD liesD intended to lie and knew it was a lieV replied on the statementV suffered damages (if you paid money you were damaged)If nothing else, Trump lied about the existence of the fund. He failed to disclose a study which disproved his claims. If I tell you "this investment is secure" and fail to mention a study that said otherwise . . . 7/
(DIR) Post #ASi2wOCEGWWxQZnmXQ by TamarYellin@mastodon.world
2023-02-15T16:41:48Z
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@Teri_Kanefield I always said it would be tax fraud. I mean, that's how they got Capone.
(DIR) Post #ASi2x1kdCYDq6ZCJ4i by TCatInReality@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T16:41:54Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Yes!!!
(DIR) Post #ASi2z0XQgLkKvEy04e by karabaic@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T16:42:15Z
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@Teri_Kanefield I get what you’re saying. But even the tree example is sketch, especially if I think the study is junk. Does your pediatrician need to tell you about Andrew Wakefield’s vaccine studies, even before they were retracted for being fraudulent?I still doubt that this will convince a jury.
(DIR) Post #ASi3D3F7QHdHMg6AxV by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:44:49Z
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I'm getting a lot of questions. Here's the thing about fraud: The elements are straightforward.D = defendantV = victimD tells a lieD intended to deceive the victimsV relied on the lieV suffered damages (if you paid money you were damaged)If nothing else, Trump lied about the existence of the fund. He failed to disclose a study which disproved his claims. "I didn't believe the study" isn't a defense because it doesn't explain not disclosing it and pretending it never happened.7/
(DIR) Post #ASi3U2NLtstPb937U8 by fsinn@mas.to
2023-02-15T16:47:52Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Agreed.
(DIR) Post #ASi3bIpb7Kruf3j1zE by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:49:11Z
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This won't fly: "Members of the jury: My client thought he had an Election Defense Fund even though he didn't and he didn't believe the study he kept hidden."Randall's point though is that it is not like getting him on trying to subvert democracy.It's small peanuts. My point: Put the small peanuts with the big peanuts to pressure the defendants.8/
(DIR) Post #ASi3d2CfuTuDfcLTJQ by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T16:49:30Z
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@TamarYellin Randall used the same analogy.
(DIR) Post #ASi3moJMPpKPTq8Mrp by pinsk@freeradical.zone
2023-02-15T16:51:14Z
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@Teri_Kanefield it's often fascism tho
(DIR) Post #ASi4685d6UAwKAvJmy by DrewKadel@social.coop
2023-02-15T16:54:45Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Lawyers can obfuscate the issues. "There were words saying that some of this money might go for other uses" The long argument about type sizes, etc would then show other people's political fundraising literature. And did Trump himself suppress the study or simply not use it? I see where adding the charge to others might help, but this is far from a slam dunk.
(DIR) Post #ASi49NU2KK84w4t9Em by philip_cardella@historians.social
2023-02-15T16:55:07Z
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@Teri_Kanefield i think there can be a political advantage here too. This is a way to isolate Trump from his allies, especially the ones afraid of his voters. Someone like Pence can claim, "oh gee I didn't know about that study, people should get their money back, but long live Trump!" and step aside while Trump burns. Of course, that would only get Trump and a few others, not the others trying to destroy democracy.
(DIR) Post #ASi4dqlO1tQ0QuXB2W by goodreedAJ@sfba.social
2023-02-15T17:00:51Z
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@Teri_Kanefield: It sounds like it helps build the bigger cases if the prosecutors can convict him on smaller crimes that collectively add up to the big stuff. They've been building their cases from the ground up straight along, and convictions are better than the dismissals we've seen in the myriad frivolous election fraud cases that team Trump has brought (although those frivolous dismissed cases have caused the lawyers who brought them some well-deserved grief).
(DIR) Post #ASi4zpf8npIFOF5w2K by Aethelstan@mas.to
2023-02-15T17:04:50Z
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@Teri_Kanefield ha. “Small peanuts” (Sorry)
(DIR) Post #ASi6l8PX0ya96Kuf5c by Teri_Kanefield@law-and-politics.online
2023-02-15T17:24:34Z
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@Aethelstan Oh dear. I'd better be more careful with my metaphors.
(DIR) Post #ASiC81UnOH7q5N6nCq by thomasclayton@mas.to
2023-02-15T18:24:44Z
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@Teri_Kanefield (Fraud. What did you think I meant?) 😅I liked the DOJ calling him FPOTUS. Choose your own F word. I chose Failed. What did you think I chose?
(DIR) Post #ASiC969rXdBupqpWNc by fulanigirl@blacktwitter.io
2023-02-15T18:24:56Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Randall's ability to break down White Collar crime issues is so good. I assigned his posts to my students because I was pretty sure they were not reading their text, but they would read him!
(DIR) Post #ASiD4RIzaZoSvdRVfU by bruce_korb@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T18:35:18Z
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@Teri_Kanefield > Nonetheless, he raised more than $250 million from small donors for an “Official Election Defense Fund.”> And . . . no such fund existed.So...many...little..."oopsie"s.51 jurisdictions + territories! Heck, if he hit up folks in other countries, why not let _them_ join in the fun?RE: your pointthis all *must* come down before the nomination season gets going in earnest. We're closing on tRUmp's 8th anniversary of the escalator ride.
(DIR) Post #ASiDYnBymKSFUsdU1Y by bruce_korb@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T18:40:47Z
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@Teri_Kanefield @Aethelstan Nothing wrong with mixing up metaphors. e.g. the Republicans jumped the rails, wandered out into left field, left the reservation and have gone on to a completely different planet, if not universe.
(DIR) Post #ASiFQn6fPfZ8p5SnFA by martinvermeer@fediscience.org
2023-02-15T19:01:45Z
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@Teri_Kanefield It feels also like getting the tobacco 'seven dwarves' CEOs on perjury about what they knew from their own labs about tobacco addiction. And, we may hope (though much harder), the fossil-fuel giants on their similar ignorance lie on the climate change they helped causing.
(DIR) Post #ASiJwq1iUVOexlgVcG by MoiraEve@mastodon.world
2023-02-15T19:52:20Z
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@Teri_Kanefield trump has fundraised multiple times and one never knows where the money went. I can see your point, however, about the law having more teeth w/ a charge of wire fraud than election fraud. B/c he's raising $$ by using the "wires" owned by all of us, not just suckers who gladly donate $$ to trump and don't care how he uses it.
(DIR) Post #ASiKN7l5BgbnUCREzQ by RoguePlayer@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T19:57:06Z
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@Teri_Kanefield reminds me of how Tom Cruise took down "The Firm" Where there's a will, there's a way!
(DIR) Post #ASiMgeWZmvdQWD5oMy by karlauerbach@sfba.social
2023-02-15T20:23:02Z
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@Teri_Kanefield And such charges can be based on state law - and there are probably defrauded people in each state, thus making it possible for 50+ district attorneys to bring criminal charges, not to mention a huge number of civil cases. It can be a tsunami of legal cases.
(DIR) Post #ASiZD2qS6D6QfEbNIm by AlanOutback@qoto.org
2023-02-15T22:43:20Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Here's question you don't get asked often enough. (as you deserve)Have I told you lately that I love you? MWAH. X X O X!==============Also while I am sure you will understand It seems I am also coming to Love Randall, but you are still my favorite constitutional scholar. Definitely got he "Vibe" (see the castle)
(DIR) Post #ASjXNCi2H0xPP3LEVU by Catawu@mastodon.social
2023-02-16T09:57:29Z
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@Teri_Kanefield @karabaic and his motive for lying was to trick people into giving him money. That’s fraud.
(DIR) Post #ASjv7zzJgcMoVMhtMe by kahyrn@masto.ai
2023-02-16T14:23:39Z
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@Teri_Kanefield Similar to the Theranos Case.Hiding the issue that the her machine and process did not give the results, while preying upon investors interests in pursuing the benefits of the project.Elizabeth Holmes was convicted.In a way dif from Maddoff fraud only in that *some peeps* can rationalize the investor losses as being "greedy folks intent on high interest returns for $$$ who got deceived by wanting something for nothing"but still the same legal fraud principles apply.