Post AShlS8UeNxwQolPHDk by slothrop@chaos.social
(DIR) More posts by slothrop@chaos.social
(DIR) Post #ASge6sd5HKxuhLJDOa by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T00:28:04Z
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I'm fascinated by the disclaimers that OpenAI and Google and Microsoft issue alongside their large-language-model productsThey all more or less say, yeah, this thing isn't trustworthy or reliable(This doesn't stop them from *releasing* these products, of course)It feels different from the usual "this is an alpha product" tech caveatsWhat other examples do we have of tech firms saying "oh hai here's a new world-changing product and oh yeah it screws up *badly* and *unpredictably*"?
(DIR) Post #ASgeFeqLu6oWY1hUbQ by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T00:28:49Z
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The particular *intellectual* and *legal* and *moral* mouthfeel of these cover-your-ass statements feels new
(DIR) Post #ASgeMVk093GGLOzvCy by Csosorchid@universeodon.com
2023-02-15T00:30:04Z
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@clive Tesla self driving cars, next.
(DIR) Post #ASgeUoeTibqbJPNHbE by Nothingsmonstrd@mastodon.world
2023-02-15T00:32:12Z
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@clive what does the fine print look like on "full self-driving?"
(DIR) Post #ASgesTTY6RlqaKXljc by Jonathanglick@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T00:33:04Z
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@clive Isn't the best (recent) example Tesla's self-driving? (which was and is also odd.)
(DIR) Post #ASgewua7GXQLoKjOeO by halfcocked@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T00:35:01Z
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@clive I, for one, don't want to know what the mouthfeel of cover-your-ass statements is.
(DIR) Post #ASgf5LZ8p4OxolIVF2 by Oozenet@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T00:36:53Z
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@clive Just pretty much every single software lisence ever says they don't warranty the software to do anything at all.
(DIR) Post #ASgfBt7sxVpzdnfT7o by thomasfuchs@hachyderm.io
2023-02-15T00:35:30Z
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@clive Everything from Tesla?
(DIR) Post #ASgfMmdnPZR6iEmz4q by elenaperez@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T00:39:04Z
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@clive seems like shrugging off risk has become standard in the race to release products. self-driving cars may have permanently lowered the bar.
(DIR) Post #ASgfVToOmpBKvCtYw4 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T00:43:42Z
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@Oozenet Yes, true!This still feels different thoughUnder Bill Gates in the early days, Microsoft issued one of those ass-covering warranties on every copy of WordBut he didn't do interviews saying "Word may totally destroy your document without warning for no reason lol god is dead"
(DIR) Post #ASgfizRKVQeamKXyK0 by shashashasha@mastodon.publicinterest.town
2023-02-15T00:45:31Z
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@clive it has the vibe of the person selling that cursed yogurt? ice cream? to Homer
(DIR) Post #ASgg3vfNjL8v9n6WQq by mikej@mastodon.online
2023-02-15T00:49:56Z
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@clive Autonomous deathbots allowed to roam the streets.
(DIR) Post #ASghtaYzXIEeifJQLA by kiriappeee@mstdn.party
2023-02-15T01:10:02Z
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@clive it’s actually really bad. I’ve tested these models on practical stuff, not even extra cases like mathematical computation, and it has been terribly unreliable in cases not tuned for tech. - incorrect information about heart rate based training for certain sports- imagined sources of information for information about the Sri Lankan civil war- completely fictional information about characters from how to train your dragonMay this bubble pop hard.
(DIR) Post #ASgl52WoCgTIUyRXYO by heavyboots@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T01:46:05Z
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@clive Besides Tesla Autodrive?
(DIR) Post #ASglCcim2NJAmBejSK by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T01:47:21Z
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@heavyboots Good example!
(DIR) Post #ASglO5Ka0VQ2h2nwxM by BillBraine@newsie.social
2023-02-15T01:48:55Z
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@clive https://flic.kr/p/2WxWJJ
(DIR) Post #ASglXPcHxH1QDLXFo0 by aburtch@triangletoot.party
2023-02-15T01:50:22Z
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@clive social media
(DIR) Post #ASgmmXHjpFxqIOhMgK by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:05:10Z
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@kiriappeee Ugh ugh
(DIR) Post #ASgn1V8G71mbxjOtkG by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:06:29Z
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@mikej Yep
(DIR) Post #ASgn7Jcro0Ak0uUQQy by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:07:01Z
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@elenaperez yeah I think that’s exactly right
(DIR) Post #ASgnCoIRCVRmaIYQQy by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:07:17Z
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@thomasfuchs Yes!
(DIR) Post #ASgnIKJJbHMLK3axHc by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:07:26Z
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@halfcocked 😅
(DIR) Post #ASgneylXrwAnABbKD2 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:08:05Z
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@Jonathanglick very true, good example!
(DIR) Post #ASgnqQUl72cCLjCwcK by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:08:26Z
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@Csosorchid Yes!
(DIR) Post #ASgnwLI1NZUVwV4SDQ by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:06:43Z
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@shashashasha Basically yeah
(DIR) Post #ASgoAAU2LxJiTwHeQS by DarkWraithLord@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T02:14:19Z
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@clive @thomasfuchs Exactly and Tesla made money from empty promises. Imagine how much money these tech companies will make from "artificial" intelligence chatbots. This is a new revenue stream as they see subscriptions leveling off.
(DIR) Post #ASgofq43o1VqQ7Edbk by kevhamm@tech.lgbt
2023-02-15T02:24:31Z
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@clive might I introduce you to early aviation?
(DIR) Post #ASgofqaJs5Ji2AKOtE by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:25:47Z
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@kevhamm Lol yes
(DIR) Post #ASgowIOuDiFkw8pgi8 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:27:12Z
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@BillBraine Yes
(DIR) Post #ASgpJBIwlldDaZxSvg by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:26:45Z
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@aburtch Heh heh
(DIR) Post #ASgpS3pDwmFazxI0bA by Seruko@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T02:34:31Z
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@clive Tesla Autopilot lol.https://youtu.be/r69AGiB24Wk
(DIR) Post #ASgq6vj8xb2rktvvvc by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:08:18Z
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@Nothingsmonstrd Totally
(DIR) Post #ASgrRHVtliLX4R0SAq by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T02:57:20Z
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@Seruko Yes!
(DIR) Post #ASgrZW5JTdhwZxUwBE by jbaert@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T02:57:43Z
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@clive Don't know who the quote is from, but "The world has a disinformation problem, and Big Tech went Hey here's an oracle that is sometimes confidently and utterly wrong" 👍
(DIR) Post #ASgu5kxntQXxtrUDrs by kazys@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T03:27:06Z
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@clive Tesla full self driving actually says that in the agreement screens.
(DIR) Post #ASgzVwJQovOQOiuIoS by ItsGregory@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T04:27:29Z
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@clive Disruption is their game (outlier grief & potential chaos), and 50/50 odds they'll benefit from it... but remember it's Predator Capitalism and you the complacent consumer are easy pickins
(DIR) Post #ASgzkzXt58KQljqWNU by abitwise@hachyderm.io
2023-02-15T04:30:03Z
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@clive “We can’t necessarily explain the behavior of this tool. We can’t guarantee it’s accurate. Who knows what the societal impacts will be? But it’s pretty neat, huh? Go wild!”
(DIR) Post #ASh4PhL253udzPV0U4 by mfioretti_en@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T05:22:48Z
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@clive huh, like, lots of versions of #Microsoft #windows ???
(DIR) Post #ASh4vqhcndBqIcOgtc by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T05:28:37Z
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@abitwise Lol yes
(DIR) Post #ASh51JLhii5EankTIG by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T05:28:51Z
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@ItsGregory More or less yeah
(DIR) Post #ASh5831Gpc6fyTP3Tc by jbaert@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T03:05:40Z
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@clive found it https://infosec.exchange/@wbm312/109862310429138862
(DIR) Post #ASh583b4gUkLlW9eHg by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T05:29:38Z
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@jbaert Aha, good one!
(DIR) Post #ASh5FKvCfbp9WY2am0 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T05:29:09Z
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@kazys Yes, very true
(DIR) Post #ASh5uF1bUzn56mXVpo by mikro2nd@indieweb.social
2023-02-15T05:39:30Z
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@clive Apropos this, does anyone have a comprehensive list of AI bots/spiders scraping the web for training content? I'd hope those things respect robots.txt exclusions, but lack a list of spiders to use.
(DIR) Post #AShDEpQaYwDRTszQhM by si2mev@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T07:01:40Z
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@clive @redegelde en @ralphcrutzen . veel plezier bij Apple en Google. ;)
(DIR) Post #AShFUU3bz9rXk7pqYS by wongaboo@mastodon.green
2023-02-15T07:26:54Z
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@clive Tesla self driving. MS Windows 3.1. MS outlook (every version). Early Google maps. Gateway computers. Motorola’s Sinclair QL. I’m pretty sure “world changing but fails unpredictably” has been an IT sweet spot going back to Babbage’s difference engine.
(DIR) Post #AShL8zHpnIQ3xAcYF6 by teamonkey@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T08:30:16Z
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Basic knowledge of AI needs to be taught in schools alongside “people put really bad stuff on YouTube” and “that kid you’re talking to online to might be a man in his 40s”
(DIR) Post #AShNnoFhvLfXVpDeBE by zoran@photog.social
2023-02-15T09:00:02Z
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@clive It's a sign of the times that they can at all, I think. They have a massive presence at all levels of our existence which gives them an opportunity to get away with it. Do we realize how much power a company must have to be able to release a product with a sign that it'll explode in your face if you use it? And feel great about it? And not be afraid of any repercussions?
(DIR) Post #AShfCt1n0K7ymeFiS0 by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T12:15:02Z
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@clive ooh interesting. Any specific link to look that up at?
(DIR) Post #AShfbEBC0xGrKnG26q by slothrop@chaos.social
2023-02-15T12:19:27Z
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@clive Somehow the current crop of LLMs feels closer to unregulated weed killers than to software.Both in terms of potential harm and human impact.
(DIR) Post #AShfkcgsFiQXxaYYIC by craignicol@octodon.social
2023-02-15T12:21:08Z
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@clive Hasn't there been a standard software clause for a while that says "don't use for nuclear" because that would mess things up badly (Long before StuxNet)
(DIR) Post #AShgzM4QQanAiBA1wG by daniel@mynah.org
2023-02-15T12:35:02Z
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@clive Microsoft Windows for the first couple of decades.
(DIR) Post #AShiJ6p6vRS9AZysK0 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T12:49:47Z
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@craignicol Yep — and all software licenses explicitly say that “this software may not perform the way it’s supposed to, so don’t sue us”But the public posture of people selling that software historically has not been “yeah, the stuff just doesn’t work some of the time”. That’s new, it seems, to me
(DIR) Post #AShiPpCuotfsYsJlBI by rui@twit.social
2023-02-15T12:49:52Z
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@clive there's a tension between expectation, hype and reality. Someone made an impressive text calculator, but then people started calling it intelligent. While good at faking intelligence, and great at text maths, these multi-billion$ tools are dumb af.
(DIR) Post #AShie1tYRaf7xx2Eoi by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T12:51:03Z
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@slothrop that’s a good comparison point! The LLM’s more resemble chemical processes than deterministic engineering processes
(DIR) Post #AShiglMSNBCLYWrCpU by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T12:51:54Z
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@rysiek no big single thing, just a constant drip drip drip of comments by folks making the software, and also looking at the little disclaimers that constantly appear in eight point below any iteration of these tools
(DIR) Post #AShivCLgpXNVJKNjOK by rysiek@mstdn.social
2023-02-15T12:56:07Z
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@clive ah, right. Yeah, true. And it's even more problematic like that *because* it is not made official and put front-and-center to warn the users, just nudge-nudge wink-wink and then "well we did say it was untrustworthy" (somewhere where nobody could find it easily).
(DIR) Post #AShk263eiZIfmUneNs by duckwhistle@mastodon.org.uk
2023-02-15T09:57:51Z
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@elenaperez @clive they've been doing it with PC games since home Internet conections became common.Why pay people to play test your games & make sure all the bugs are fixed before you release, when you can just wait for users to complain and then create a patch available for them to download online.You start bringing in money sooner and you acclimatise your customers to buggy software, so after a few decades you only have to fix the most game breaking bugs.
(DIR) Post #AShk26j8EMTdr8Cm24 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T13:06:47Z
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@duckwhistle @elenaperez Yep true — back around 2000 I interviewed a software engineer who’d worked on a game with a bug that was a far out edge case but would literally screw up non-game data on someone’s hard drive He documented it and got folks high up aware of it They told the engineers to ship the game anyway, without fixing it
(DIR) Post #AShkPHrJ0br72c55mK by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T13:11:01Z
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@wongaboo Yeah good point
(DIR) Post #AShkdqB0DHZ1WuEYi0 by zoran@photog.social
2023-02-15T08:50:53Z
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@kiriappeee @clive It probably will pop eventually, but seeing the speed with which the money is being poured in, I think the bubble will survive for too long.And I'm afraid that once it pops, it'll again create a lot of collateral damage.
(DIR) Post #AShkdqndtcTLSkJPw8 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T13:08:03Z
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@kiriappeee @zoran Yeah I think this is right
(DIR) Post #AShkvridDXALWfYghk by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T13:16:28Z
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@mikro2nd Good question!And of course we have no way of knowing whether any of these companies actually obey and respect robots.txt exclusions
(DIR) Post #AShlAKLbZcjEN0gSqe by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T13:13:06Z
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@rysiek Yes precisely That wink wink nudge nudge thing is a big part of this
(DIR) Post #AShlAipYXuwmIqsirg by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T13:07:21Z
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@zoran Yep — in a way it’s a flex, eh?
(DIR) Post #AShlHL6l90K4kw5FbM by craignicol@octodon.social
2023-02-15T13:18:54Z
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@clive maybe not as clear, but there's been an expectation soonest many big name games recently that there first thing everyone does on day 1 is download all the release day patches because there's a good chance you can't run it otherwise. But yeah, I've not seen anyone up front say "this will lie to you", "this is broken", just a general expectation that's the case.
(DIR) Post #AShlHLY3VW9o7ar39E by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T13:22:27Z
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@craignicol Yep this is the interesting distinction Games are an interesting field of software overall — particularly computer games, where we customers are presumed to be more technically sophisticated and willing to hash through all manner of configuration errors and hardware incompatibilities
(DIR) Post #AShlS8UeNxwQolPHDk by slothrop@chaos.social
2023-02-15T13:09:18Z
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@clive I was thinking more about the environmental effects of chemicals.Industrial chemical processes are usually quite deterministic.
(DIR) Post #AShmgqU3j7OtGBhxb6 by paraic@mastodon.ie
2023-02-15T13:38:52Z
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@clive This is an inevitable by-product of these so-called ‘AI’ (actually just non-deterministic) algorithms - no one can tell what output will result from a random input. If I were graduating CompSci in 2023 (not 1988!) I would be looking at developing formal methods in AI/ML
(DIR) Post #AShuN6JjwoAQCzyf1k by CrisLuengo@fosstodon.org
2023-02-15T15:04:15Z
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@clive It’s not an alpha product because they have no hopes of fixing it. All they can do is make a new, bigger model, and hope it performs better.
(DIR) Post #ASi0kCmQgWD6dbnSds by elenaperez@mastodon.social
2023-02-15T16:15:54Z
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@clive @duckwhistle I think we all got used to risk creep on lower-stakes products... and maybe pharma commercials, with their epilogue of disclaimers, helped, too. *We* are the product testers now. And there is no 'rolling back' with this kind of release strategy.
(DIR) Post #ASiCGI6PWzR3uIe3v6 by noam@beige.party
2023-02-15T18:25:10Z
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@clive Tesla self-driving is effectively like that: They tell people to look at the road but don't seem to enforce it sufficiently, causing numerous accidents
(DIR) Post #ASiKGlmC0HO9ZXvZ1E by paco@infosec.exchange
2023-02-15T19:53:59Z
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@clive Always amused me that the Java license terms and conditions specifically named nuclear power as a forbidden application of the technology. I don’t see that prohibition in modern EULAs but it was there years ago when the language was released.
(DIR) Post #ASiQnw1JXNLgcmCL7Q by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T21:08:11Z
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@paco Yes! I remember that too
(DIR) Post #ASiR1JNzyV4UrCBf4S by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T21:08:31Z
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@noam Yes, very good point
(DIR) Post #ASiRAdP2vDLZXp7ewy by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T21:09:46Z
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@CrisLuengo Good point. There’s no patch you can really make to the performance of an LLM. All I can do is make a different LLM
(DIR) Post #ASiRa6An5n9s0rb4S0 by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T21:09:08Z
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@elenaperez @duckwhistle Yes! This is the key point: customers are now QA testers
(DIR) Post #ASiRimwDyclqxlvY4u by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-15T21:11:09Z
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@paraic Yep yep Back when I wrote my last book I included a chapter about the weirdly different culture of computer science in the world of training neural nets. A lot of traditional, deterministic programmers were really uneasy with what it meant to build modern deep learning. It felt more like gardening than programming
(DIR) Post #ASjapfGpyb2txHslhQ by BillBraine@newsie.social
2023-02-16T10:35:27Z
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@clive I remember seeing another, more relevant, sign at Yellowstone that said something like “even if you follow these safety instructions, you may die,” but I couldn’t find a photo.
(DIR) Post #ASjgs9g8UT0mZIHobA by interstar@artoot.xyz
2023-02-16T11:42:41Z
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@clive Surely a bigger question is why, say, your newspaper or TV news channel doesn't also come with a warning of "may be factually inaccurate"
(DIR) Post #ASjjBkuUULV7RyTUWG by duckwhistle@mastodon.org.uk
2023-02-16T09:10:16Z
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@elenaperez @clive never having been subjected to the barrage of pharma commercials, I don't know how significant an influence that is. However I was under the impression that rediculous disclaimers before software install, pre dated a lot of the regulatory requirements for disclaimer inclusion where they are allowed.
(DIR) Post #ASjjBlOcgJbUxQZYUC by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-16T12:09:07Z
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@duckwhistle @elenaperez The pharma commercial disclaimers really resemble it! Good comparison Software licenses indeed have always had a hilariously awful cover your ass quality, but the tone of *uncertainty* in these caveats about LLMs reminds me a lot of those rapidly spoken pharma disclaimers
(DIR) Post #ASjjHufT7eSjS0Nt8i by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-16T12:10:07Z
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@BillBraine Damn, that is pretty metal
(DIR) Post #ASjjUtQ34nRdLIMRMm by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-16T12:09:35Z
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@interstar That too
(DIR) Post #ASjjtvDzV5yGBKej2m by interstar@artoot.xyz
2023-02-16T12:17:06Z
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@clive The nearest direct parallel I can think of is where all those financial advice / brokers etc. have to say "remember that shares can go down as well as up" when promising you'll make huge profits.
(DIR) Post #ASjwxmU3EwJbdPL2bw by mikedaisey@saturation.social
2023-02-16T14:41:36Z
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They could have at least named it Skynet.
(DIR) Post #ASkDMXIgQWtP3BqaOm by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-16T17:45:39Z
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@interstar Yep, that’s a good one
(DIR) Post #ASkHny5hKOMNm86qXY by TrashPanda@infosec.exchange
2023-02-16T18:36:11Z
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@clive Look, this is the incredibly rapidly evolving world of AI here. If they waited until they made sure the black-box unpredictable AI was totally safe before they released it, we might all end up waiting until we're dead. (Twist: it's only 6 months later, we all died because of the unpredictable AI)Also, counterpoint: people make and sell guns and cars every day and that's worked out just fine for all involved.
(DIR) Post #ASkKhVQ7JNXSyoGpEm by clive@saturation.social
2023-02-16T19:09:03Z
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@TrashPanda Ack, and ack
(DIR) Post #ASlg8mO2dAkxcB6cnA by Csosorchid@universeodon.com
2023-02-17T10:44:23Z
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@clive Was it something we said?