Post AShe5TSvXuTRWRqcCm by SethBrown@linuxrocks.online
(DIR) More posts by SethBrown@linuxrocks.online
(DIR) Post #ASfkaXyd29nZtqxJey by thor@berserker.town
2023-02-14T08:23:26Z
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part of me is like "the socialists have a point" but i also know you can't have the world they want, seeing as about half of humanity would hate that idea (roughly half of any country is right-wing), and also, people find ways of gaming any system - countries that try to practice it are ripe with corruption.
(DIR) Post #ASfkaZXPELDAk0EbVQ by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-02-14T08:40:45Z
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@thor That isn't actually true. About 70-80% of any given population generally agrees with the basic tenets of "socialism", understood as the idea that everyone should have a decent basis of living, and that society should provide it if you can't do it yourself. I don't have any of the sources on hand (from my desk at work, don't tell anyone) but I've read findings along these lines from both European countries and the US.The current left/right "balance" is basically political manipulation.
(DIR) Post #ASfkaa6V7rHgUqedCy by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-14T14:06:46Z
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@jwcph @thor Things to consider: Regardless of the popularity of an idea (ad populum fallacy) it doesn't create truth (socialism isn't good), nor does it create justice (the ends don't justify the means).Statistics are nothing but a poorly thought out justification for forcing people to serve your interests against your will.
(DIR) Post #ASfkmZ1CzFWobatOc4 by SethBrown@linuxrocks.online
2023-02-14T10:42:24Z
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@thor are you suggesting that countries which do NOT practice socialism are free of corruption?I would suggest that they simply hide it better and their media suppress any serious discussion on the subject
(DIR) Post #ASfkmZXT3JKgDdz9tY by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-14T14:08:57Z
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@SethBrown @thor Not at all. A country, solely being the product of a group of people calling themselves gov't and claiming authority over the people who live there, and that group of people having no legitimate claim to doing so is inherently corrupt regardless of the economic model that exists.It should also be pointed out that in no place on earth is economics settled along a capitalist model, but rather, solely in collectivist means: fascist or socialist, and virtually all are the former.
(DIR) Post #ASfl8GqREkgObyCnhI by Heliograph@mastodon.au
2023-02-14T08:44:08Z
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@thor the Tragedy of the Commons describes how we are our worst enemy
(DIR) Post #ASfl8HQF5dK4P0xOVM by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-14T14:12:53Z
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@Heliograph @thor The tragedy of the commons describes the folly of the concept of the commons and the fallacy that through governance order can be found.Collective ownership is erroneous, as ownership is exclusively monopolistic. Property being both rivalrous and excludable, can not have more than one owner. If I am standing on a piece of dirt, you can't do so as well. Where you see a parking lot, I see a garden. They can't both exist at the same time. And conflicting desires for it need to be settled in a fashion. And whoever holds authority to settle that conflict is the owner of it.
(DIR) Post #ASfoQy1ZjbMTbc1OVc by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-02-14T14:49:50Z
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@elliswyatt @thor thing to also consider: Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's bad, either. Anyway, the point is irrelevant since nobody appealed to popularity here.
(DIR) Post #ASfocMl27LDTV2ifNg by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-14T14:51:56Z
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@jwcph @thor Indeed, it being unjust to force a person to do your bidding makes it wrong all on its own. Being popular merely means many people subscribe to the idea of slavery to a degree they'd likely be disgusted about if they actually thought about what they were doing.
(DIR) Post #ASfoxDyXxpIuLNzDSS by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-02-14T14:55:41Z
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@elliswyatt @thor We were talking about the real world - what are you talking about...?
(DIR) Post #ASfp5YLm5yTxqqp3Im by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-14T14:57:11Z
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@jwcph @thor The real world.Socialism, like fascism, are authoritarian collectivist ideologies that abhor individualism. Both see the individual merely as a tool for collective goals in theory, and in practice, as a tool for the ruling class to use.
(DIR) Post #AShLGET1kfA13uJKWe by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-02-15T08:32:23Z
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@elliswyatt @thor You should probably learn what "socialism" is before trying to educate anyone about it.
(DIR) Post #AShXmrpw6wy1sgM1lg by SethBrown@linuxrocks.online
2023-02-15T10:52:44Z
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@elliswyatt @thor I'm sure you have some important points there but you're stating things as facts without providing any references to back them up.What's the basis for your definition of a country? Also, can you expand on "economics settled along a capitalist model"? And what is the relevance of "collectivist means" vs "capitalist model"?
(DIR) Post #AShc3gr2ayjWYm9FWC by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-15T11:40:37Z
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@jwcph @thor Assertion is not argumentum JW.I've laid my cards out. Be a man and lay yours out.
(DIR) Post #AShcauOZGvyQ70fb8a by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-15T11:46:38Z
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@SethBrown @thor The basis to my definition is fact? I mean, a country is merely a political definition of a piece of dirt that has an arbitrary line drawn on it, which through conflict with other people calling themselves gov't, changes from time to time.What would you like to know about the capitalist model? It's the free trade of goods and services with the private ownership of capital. As gov'ts claim authority over all things and acts in their domain, private ownership and free trade do not exist (outside the black market but that's a different conversation altogether).Collectivist means are settled with the erroneous belief that the individual is subjugated to the whims of the majority, and that property ownership is collectively dictated.Property, being a rivalrous and excludable good, can only have monopolistic claim. Whomever has authority to dictate the ends of conflict between "owners" is the defacto owner of it. This can only ever be one person.
(DIR) Post #AShe5TSvXuTRWRqcCm by SethBrown@linuxrocks.online
2023-02-15T12:03:20Z
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@elliswyatt @thor Normally, in a debate, I would expect authoritative sources and accepted defintions of concepts. You seem to be defining "country" without any regard for the history of a country, disregarding culture completely as though people are just pieces on a chessboard and not actual living persons. Also, defining a country as "dirt" excludes any nation that lives on the sea, which, to my knowledge, some peoples still do. Can you give an example of an economic system based on "collectivist means"? I find your definition vague. Your last statement seems to be a re-wording of the famous line from "The Outlander" movie.All it takes to refute that claim is for property to be held jointly by more than one person, as in the case of families or even, as in the US, by a corporation.Neither families nor corporation usually have the authority to dictate the terms of ownership. Their ownership is usually based on laws, common agreements among people to govern themselves.
(DIR) Post #ASheEGG01YxjAAzUDg by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-02-15T12:04:55Z
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@elliswyatt @thor it's not my job to teach you.
(DIR) Post #AShfW5ewGUWLSfimga by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-15T12:19:21Z
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@jwcph @thor And you need to have it that way because having a civil conversation with someone with whom you disagree is beyond you. Hence your need to shame and insult rather than sit back and talk like an adult.#signlanguage
(DIR) Post #AShgVz6EknEd4T0GRc by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-02-15T12:30:33Z
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@elliswyatt @thor Whereas barging into conversations about something entirely different to lecture the host about things you know not, then attempting - rather clumsily, one might observe - to swing yourself onto a high horse & clippity-clop into the sunset while complaining about your aching behind, is of course extremely civil behavior...
(DIR) Post #AShhCkb4YA4uXmop3g by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-15T12:38:17Z
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@jwcph @thor Barging? This is a public conversation held where hundreds of thousands can see it and freely engage. That is literally the purpose of social media. Thor and I have had many interesting conversations, and it seems only you are the person upset that you were exposed to an idea that you disagree.And again with assertion eithout any sort of argument. Was ot grouping socialism and fascism together, rightly, as authoritarian collectivist ideologies that bothers you so? Tell me, why did you feel it necessary to be abrasive to a stranger who is being civil? Do you act this way in person too?
(DIR) Post #AShkFFU4yzhAmSQlDk by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-02-15T13:12:19Z
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@elliswyatt @thor You continue to behave in a extremely civilized manner, I see.
(DIR) Post #AShn8UkI8soVwsU7rU by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-15T13:44:44Z
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@jwcph @thor is that it? You see malice in disagreement?
(DIR) Post #AShqBx2rgIwERvVoZ6 by jwcph@norrebro.space
2023-02-15T14:18:58Z
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@elliswyatt @thor No - I see bad behavior in you. If I cared about you I'd be sorry you can't see it yourself.
(DIR) Post #AShsGjKIJapjG14TBo by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-15T14:42:15Z
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@jwcph @thor And which "bad behaviour" is that? In so far as this conversation is, all I can see is I had the gall to disagree with you and ask you to clarify your position when you asserted that "nu uh you're wrong".Seems like what you are doing here is confirming that you see malice in disagreement.
(DIR) Post #ASiL1h7j7U5gkjNKxE by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-15T20:04:28Z
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@SethBrown @thor Except history shows merely a trafition of people believing that a line written by govt on a map creates some sort of association between people. I mean I am closer to people in New York than most of Canada, how am I related to them in any way other than being subject to the same group of govt people?
(DIR) Post #ASiLQJNQXxN8LKSQHw by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-15T20:08:56Z
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@SethBrown @thor In terms of collectivist economics, you need only look to literally every western economy. Each of which has a third party, the govt, which imposes itself on each and every transaction purportedly for the greater good. The individuals in question are subjugated to the whims of the collective.And finally, in terms of property, no, even corp and family property ALWAYS has an authority, whether internal or external, most often external. Corps dont exist at all without that third party and ultimately it settles all conflicts.