Post ASdCV3d2eeZxZT9LDU by Pat@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by Pat@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AScFgmc3qmYCyd0uwa by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-12T21:36:24Z
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I heard a mention of #ConorMcGregor, so I went to read a bit about him, and watched a few minutes of a couple #UFC fights — including that knockout 13 seconds into the match.Change my mind: if you enjoy watching #MMA, there’s something wrong with you.It is brutal. Am I too sensitive?
(DIR) Post #AScGTQB43N0haHZwae by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-02-12T21:45:11Z
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@tripu I would not say too sensitive, but not precise enough. “something wrong with you” is a pretty broad term. I find it problematic to value brutal fights, even if they are fought by rules. But the way you say it, i could agree or disagree depending on the interpretation.
(DIR) Post #ASdCV3d2eeZxZT9LDU by Pat@qoto.org
2023-02-12T23:29:58Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven @tripuI think paying or encouraging someone to do things that cause severe injury should be a crime. This shit and boxing and American football should not exist.https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-02-09/in-autopsy-study-over-90-of-former-nfl-players-showed-signs-of-brain-disease-cte
(DIR) Post #ASdCV45kvtY10WaGyO by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-13T08:35:23Z
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@PatI am very, very reluctanct to ban anything like that, my default being to err on the side of freedom for consenting adults to do whatever they please.I’m just surprised that so many people seem to like MMA so much.(I know it’s not the same, I know there are a few important differences, but) it feels to me like bullfighting: I can’t understand how someone could enjoy watching that./cc @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #ASfshvoTbo77UGEts0 by Pat@qoto.org
2023-02-14T15:37:45Z
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@tripu ” am very, very reluctanct to ban anything like that, my default being to err on the side of freedom for consenting adults to do whatever they please.”Not long ago, I had that exact same position. Let people make their own choices. But I’ve begun to evolve that position.If someone with better information, experience, or intelligence knowingly leads someone else to harm themselves, then they are responsible for that harm.E.g., there is a glass of Koolaid on the table and I know that a third party has put poison in the Koolaid. Another person walks in and I tell them, “Here’s some Koolaid for you, drink up.”That’s a crime. Many of these situations are like that. They may even disclose that there is poison in the Koolaid, but then dismiss the danger and show many other people drinking it and gaining fame and fortune or whatever, or using other psychological techniques to get them to drink it anyway.Case #2: Drugs. Everyone knows that smoking tobacco will harm you. Yet millions of people around the world still smoke their first cigarette each year. Why? Because other people with more experience, knowledge and skill use a combination of psychological techniques to trick those naive people into harming themselves.There are many other analogies along the lines of someone with superior information or experience who can lead others into harming themselves.@admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #ASftTrf0LsRoVWfIiu by ImperfectIdea@mastodon.social
2023-02-14T15:46:24Z
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I quite enjoy some of them, when the skills and stakes are high. I can appreciate the abilities of some fighters, the willpower and determination. It's interesting to see different (and very, very difficult) techniques that do not rely at all on bigger muscles or bodies. I wouldn't follow it regularly but when there's a good fight (and there are very good ones) it's fascinating.@tripu @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AShjQEE5tqVe6vcpfc by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-15T13:02:23Z
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@PatI think that the laws and social norms we have guard against most of that.eg, talking about people involved in MMA, either as participants or as spectators: only adults, consenting explicitly to that, and “in full possession of their mental faculties”.Someone tricking you into taking poison is committing murder.When problems get hairy, we implement more guards: higher minimum age (eg, those below 21 can’t drink, those with less than two year’s experience riding motorbikes can’t ride the most powerful ones), mandatory delays (eg, being forced to wait X days before euthanasia, abortion, gender reassignment)./cc @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AShkYDv11m05QY4sTY by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-15T13:15:46Z
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@ImperfectIdeaI admit I’m probably more sensitive than most to the suffering of others, specifically to graphical depictions.eg, I simply can’t watch [PETA] videos or films like Dominion.I think I could watch an MMA fight, but I doubt I would enjoy it — rather the opposite./cc @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AShkbjWlxk8kKUPaxE by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-15T13:16:24Z
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@ImperfectIdeaI admit I’m probably more sensitive than most to the suffering of others, specifically to graphical depictions.eg, I simply can’t watch PETA videos or films like Dominion.I think I could watch an MMA fight, but I doubt I would enjoy it — rather the opposite./cc @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #ASjNtevdtGxeeJXjF2 by ImperfectIdea@mastodon.social
2023-02-16T08:11:19Z
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@tripuThose are very different - I also can't watch videos of "innocent" animals being tortured unnecessarily; on the other hand, an adult human consciously engaging in an activity they thoroughly enjoy, even if they feel pain at some points, can be even inspiring. In that sense an MMA fighter getting KO'd is no different than a marathon runner collapsing. They might not even call that "suffering", so your "sensitivity" would be misguided.@Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #ASlX74laQQGkS5EQe8 by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-17T09:04:03Z
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@ImperfectIdeaYes, a fight between two consenting humans is different from a bull killed in the bullring or a goat being thrown from the top of the church bell tower. I acknowledged that difference.What they have in common though is a focus on, and a celebration of, violence and pain. That’s what I can’t stand (and what I suspect is ethically dubious, at best)./cc @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #ASlX9z3u5hsFd1BbBg by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-17T09:04:34Z
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@ImperfectIdea “An MMA fighter getting KO’d is no different than a marathon runner collapsing”It is very different.A marathoner collapsing is an unfortunate outcome. Nobody wants that, and nobody feels a bit happier when that happens. (The only very extreme and very unlikely exception: a chaser close behind in the race for whom that other runner collapsing is “good news”).On the other hand, one of the fighters collapsing and being so badly injured that he can’t get up is literally the best situation possible for the other fighter and for everyone and everything supporting him.A fighter hitting so hard (and so “well”) that he literally kills his opponent immediately is arguably the perfect demonstration of his superiority. Even if fighters were so skilled (and so “kind”) as to calibrate their blows to always keep them just right below the “possibly mortal” level (a very generous assumption), inflicting maximum pain and damage to render their opponent unconscious is THE goal of the whole thing./cc @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #ASlXBroM1JxHifoKh6 by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-17T09:04:55Z
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@ImperfectIdeaI remember #JoeRogan saying something along those lines about his time as a professional fighter (but I can’t find the quote now): that his priority as a fighter was to inflict as much damage and pain in another human being as possible, that he was optimising for that and training that skill.When that maximum pain and damage happens, a fighter is ecstatic, his team cheers, a crowd celebrates, sponsors rub their hands together in happiness. The exact moment when that person gets injured so badly (concussion? brain damage? death?) is replayed, commented on, shown to aspiring fighters, shared and “enjoyed” — sometimes by millions./cc @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #ASlXDeMsyKwAbcoSn2 by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-17T09:05:15Z
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@ImperfectIdeaAs I said, I have no temptation to ban MMA. I think individual freedom wins here.But I do think people should examine why they enjoy participating in that, or supporting that with their attention or their money — what exactly is at the core of the spectacle, what is being celebrated./cc @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #ASlXPWgrLOEUGhoo6a by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-02-17T09:07:23Z
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@tripu @ImperfectIdea @Pat Hmm, i see the point, but all examples i can come up with fall under “bread and circuses” as a distraction technique. I would thus see it as a secondary problem, not a root cause. Sure, it is unpleasant that it is possible to distract people with that. But what i would want to see most is a change in the original stirring of those primal instincts, instead of shaming those that fall prey to it.
(DIR) Post #ASlXl0ZpQC3l2cm04e by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-02-17T09:11:17Z
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@tripu @ImperfectIdea @Pat It is different, but also connected. I would argue that running, when done competetively, can drive people to unhealthy extremes - once people start collapsing, the frame is a likely cause of death. Neglect by organizers is the cause, and spectators accept that. Different is only the delivery mechanism as either direct damage or exhaustion / performance drug use.
(DIR) Post #ASlXzhiVpBJ2tMqIaW by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-02-17T09:13:56Z
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@tripu @ImperfectIdea @Pat That, as a “should”, i can completely support. Said this way, it is what i would wish for as a part of the personality of people i am in contact with.
(DIR) Post #ASp00woOZGnQBjr5fs by Greatness@universeodon.com
2023-02-19T01:11:58Z
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@tripu @ImperfectIdea @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven what is your point? Joe Rogan is a hero?
(DIR) Post #ASphN5v5gIZuptnHVo by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-19T09:17:50Z
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@GreatnessRead first and last posts in my thread./cc @ImperfectIdea @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AXoPYUgMMVfJEDl3s8 by ImperfectIdea@mastodon.social
2023-02-14T15:54:15Z
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You're more likely to suffer a life-changing accident driving or cycling, or doing a number of other daily normal activities, than training to be a professional fighter. And of course you've mentioned smoking, and there's alcohol. Perhaps going to loud discos each weekend can render you deaf in the near-term. Where do you draw the line?@Pat @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
(DIR) Post #AXoPYW4rAur3YUE8h6 by Pat@qoto.org
2023-02-14T15:59:44Z
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@ImperfectIdea>"Where do you draw the line?"That's the $64,000 question. I'm not sure where the line is, but I'm not sure that eventually finding that line is impossible, either. @admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
(DIR) Post #AXoPYX4XTaC8dn5Oq0 by ImperfectIdea@mastodon.social
2023-02-14T16:43:52Z
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@PatI can't imagine a line that doesn't include things most normal people would want to do for fun.@admitsWrongIfProven @tripu
(DIR) Post #AXoPYXq2cyBz17JKsa by tripu@qoto.org
2023-07-18T07:43:59Z
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Now the likes of #MarkZuckerberg and #MarcAndreessen are contributing to making #MMA and #UFC even “cooler”: “I was […] asked whether I consider Mark and #Elon to be role models to children in their embrace of #fighting, and I said, enthusiastically, yes. And I further recommended to the audience that they have their children trained in MMA, as my wife and I are. #Kids as young as eight and maybe even younger are totally capable of learning both the striking and grappling dimensions of the sport.”Sure, let’s have an eight-year-old practicing a “sport” for which the ultimate display of prowess is being able to instantly kill another person by kicking their face. You can try to sweeten and disguise the discipline as much as you want: anyone training will know what exactly is at the apex, who are the best MMA fighters, and what it is that they do when they compete. “MMA training is likely the best path for widespread gains in physical #fitness, particularly for #children.”Seriously? The best path? Better than weight training, indoor rowing, tennis or basketball? Better than running, swimming or cycling — or the combination of the three? Andreessen is eager to point out that “MMA is the original combat sport” and that “it was introduced to the actual Greek Olympic Games in 648 BC”. Well, how about running? That is “the original sport”, and has an even longer history!https://www.thefp.com/p/marc-andreessen-musk-zuckerberg-cage-fight/cc @ImperfectIdea @Pat @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #AXoSrEsfdS47aN98Qi by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-18T08:21:01Z
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@tripu @ImperfectIdea @Pat I must say those do so much damage in other ways, i cannot see how this makes any relevant difference.
(DIR) Post #AXoW50LGmotOPYmLya by tripu@qoto.org
2023-07-18T08:57:07Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenI explained here the huge difference I see between sports where injuries or pain may occur and are lamented by everybody, and an activity which has injury and pain as its main goal and as such are celebrated:https://qoto.org/@tripu/109879274672642453/cc @ImperfectIdea @Pat
(DIR) Post #AXoWbNkrH2swI7Bd0C by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-07-18T09:02:58Z
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@tripu @ImperfectIdea @Pat I’m not talking about sports, i’m talking about their general activities. Zuck/Facebook with inciting hatred, Musk/Tesla with loss of life via unscrupulous business practices.The (monetized) sports issue is valid in its own, but pales in comparison to the actual loss of life. It would be like criticizing a murderer for stealing a bottle of water.
(DIR) Post #AXtCYACr61tUD0u3M0 by ImperfectIdea@mastodon.social
2023-07-20T15:11:48Z
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@tripuThere are more deaths during professional cycling and running than professional MMA, and definitely more during amateur cycling and running than amateur MMA. That means a sport where deaths are accidental causes more deaths than a sport where the goal is supposedly to kill. The same can be said about football, Formula 1, and a few other sports. MMA is actually quite safe if we look at it this way, no?@admitsWrongIfProven @Pat
(DIR) Post #AXv4EE12oQOGunHQKu by tripu@qoto.org
2023-07-21T12:48:01Z
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@ImperfectIdeaGood point. But the fair way to measure that would be to look at QALYs lost (or gained) per time spent practicing each activity, not absolute no. of deaths per sport.Also, even if more cyclists or runners than fighters died, I suspect all cyclists (pro or amateur) clock way, way more hour×person in a year around the globe than all MMA practitioners do, so the relative risk isn’t that clear.And also, if the worst threat to amateur cyclists is being run over by a car or crashing into a lamplight… well, the gist of the sport is preserved if one cycles on dirt roads, on tracks, or even on a static bike indoors. In that sense, it’s not cycling that kills people, but doing so on public roads with traffic and obstacles (you can’t say the same about the intrinsic dangers of MMA or F1).It’s unfortunate that roads aren’t safer, and I celebrate cyclists like yourself who combine exercise and convenience daily, but those risks feel to me qualitatively different from the risk of being killed by another person who purposefully hit you as fast and as hard as they could.Again, I’m all for adults doing whatever they want. I just decry the MMA ethos, and maintain there are plenty of activities far healthier and safer for kids.@admitsWrongIfProven @Pat
(DIR) Post #AXv7aHie1YcudLsscq by ImperfectIdea@mastodon.social
2023-07-21T13:25:37Z
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@tripuI agree, it's not so simple to compare consequences. But then I'd ask you to abandon arguments around MMA's goal being "to instantly kill another person by kicking their face". It just sounds sensationalistic and appealing to emotion. No one actually kills in MMA, and no one is even *thinking* of killing. Many strikes are banned to avoid this risk; fighters restrain themselves; most wins are not by KO; fights are stopped. The goal is definitely not "killing"...@admitsWrongIfProven @Pat