Post AScLShDBjb9ttd2tYe by ja2ke@idlethumbs.social
(DIR) More posts by ja2ke@idlethumbs.social
(DIR) Post #ASc1qW1gyVot4WkVZw by misty@digipres.club
2023-02-12T19:01:13Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
It feels like the more Mastodon instance shutdowns we see, the more important it gets to think about how to enable migrating posts. Migrating a user's follows/followers is good, but for a user to lose their entire post history is pretty sever.e And the longer you use a server, the more painful it gets to lose that history of everything you've ever written.
(DIR) Post #ASc1vWLxBgDvX8c4CO by dan@cloudisland.nz
2023-02-12T19:02:08Z
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@misty yes, this would certainly be a good feature. And surely not all that difficult to implement.
(DIR) Post #ASc2bd8mLG5ykNWuf2 by jeremyneander@uiuxdev.social
2023-02-12T19:09:43Z
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@misty It hurts immeasurably more to forever lose the words of people who are no longer around.
(DIR) Post #ASc3K69poo6LU2EBZg by dkub@woof.group
2023-02-12T19:17:47Z
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@misty Yeah. There are scripts but I've seen people get smacked for using them because you can single-handedly crush an instance dumping a years' worth of toots and media into a new server over the API.
(DIR) Post #ASc3lSfMEz3B6w1JAm by Okesska@chitter.xyz
2023-02-12T19:22:43Z
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@misty i migrated a week or so ago. ive had to repost my art but i lost so much
(DIR) Post #ASc3tLKhOC52gT7DMW by misty@digipres.club
2023-02-12T19:24:04Z
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@Okesska I'm sorry. I understand how frustrating that must be!
(DIR) Post #ASc816WgiucetZgC3M by fd_vgn@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T20:10:23Z
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@misty on Twitter I did this all few years. Deleted old Account and started from new. I call this housekeeping.
(DIR) Post #ASc87uZnYDr5rQNdUO by misty@digipres.club
2023-02-12T20:11:38Z
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@fd_vgn I think that’s a perfectly fine choice if it’s what you want. I just don’t think users should be forced into that.
(DIR) Post #ASc8fUCO82DXtjRL3Q by fd_vgn@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T20:17:42Z
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@misty you are right of course.
(DIR) Post #AScCNu0Hqd1qXBeOaO by kawazoe@mstdn.ca
2023-02-12T20:59:21Z
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@misty As devs, we are acutely aware of the impacts of storing knowledge in inappropriate places. Treating Discord as a wiki is a popular one that comes to mind, making it hard for people to get into game modding. I wonder if people who feels for their Mastodon history aren't trapped in that same mindset. If you're looking for permanence, maybe a blog is the place to be. After all, real life shared spaces aren't permanent either; they are in the moment, like most use Mastodon also.
(DIR) Post #AScGQ7VB24I6nIPbyi by kf4yfa@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T21:44:27Z
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@misty Truth.
(DIR) Post #AScLShDBjb9ttd2tYe by ja2ke@idlethumbs.social
2023-02-12T22:41:03Z
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@misty would love this plus a(n ideally rolling) backup feature, with the power to upload a blob of your post history to another server if your old one disappears suddenly. I mean, I would prefer a world where servers didn’t disappear, but if that’s going to happen, moving and backup/restore would both be great.
(DIR) Post #AScWlz7YTJhwREoLJY by jplebreton@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T00:47:48Z
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@misty totally agree and at this point i am kinda actively pissed at the project leadership for not at least communicating about this widely voiced need.
(DIR) Post #AScWvv4KON8ulc2So4 by sbseltzer@peoplemaking.games
2023-02-13T00:49:33Z
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@misty yeah, I'm trying to devise a protocol for migrating with proper redirection as long as you have a valid archive and some way of verifying you are the real owner of those posts. I have some ideas. There are also some half-written specs for a distributed data integrity layer but I don't think it covers the problem space a layuser will most likely face. I'd love to workshop this with folks who are interested.
(DIR) Post #AScXc7pbKdL2VmH9gO by simon@fedi.simonwillison.net
2023-02-13T00:56:38Z
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@misty couldn't agree moreThis is definitely something that could be built. If you run your own Mastodon server and are deeply technically literate it's possible to solve this yourself by writing rows into the underlying PostgreSQL database, but it absolutely should be a feature that everyone can use
(DIR) Post #AScZWHh3x1UPGmcmTg by Andres@mastodon.hardcoredevs.com
2023-02-13T01:16:36Z
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@simon @misty Many admins had told me that toots are not thought to have a long life.I have some conflictive thoughts about that, I see people wanting their toots to last only a short time.I personally think and care about my responses and toots and I would like those to last, that's why I run my own instance.
(DIR) Post #AScZwCDsug07peKfbc by simon@fedi.simonwillison.net
2023-02-13T01:21:31Z
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@Andres @misty I'm OK with people wanting their own toots to expire after a set time, provided they don't try and inflict that policy on my own content!
(DIR) Post #AScbntqtX0HCRokblw by benx@kolektiva.social
2023-02-13T01:44:09Z
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@misty in some good news, I know that Diaspora has made a fair amount of progress on this.https://blog.diasporafoundation.org/70-a-big-hey-from-diaspora
(DIR) Post #AScbuwi9IfwFLF1IJM by Andres@mastodon.hardcoredevs.com
2023-02-13T01:43:39Z
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@simon @misty Yeah, the thing is that if you don't host, then the admin makes that decision for you.If they don't do backups or if they need to save space, then yeah...
(DIR) Post #ASce41NXW13KKfpqDI by misty@digipres.club
2023-02-13T02:09:22Z
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@daedalus Yes, of course. I didn’t say otherwise.
(DIR) Post #AScfnyHFTjsrzLMp84 by katherine_montalto@mastodon.cloud
2023-02-13T02:28:56Z
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@misty this is one of the reasons I haven't moved.
(DIR) Post #AScg1L6bukx4YPlX8q by peterbutler@mas.to
2023-02-13T02:31:25Z
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@misty Eh. Are old posts really that valuable? I’m gonna say no.If you’re talking about recreating a post timeline going back years … I don’t think it’s worth it. Just my $0.02.
(DIR) Post #ASchqCi6zFRbEw7mWO by joshferrara@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T02:51:49Z
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@misty completely agree! I understand it’s a complex task, but it would be worth the effort in my view.
(DIR) Post #ASciF5JfcDiVXxYY9A by Shrexios@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T02:56:17Z
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@misty That is a huge problem. One that has to be overcome if the Fediverse is to truly gain a foothold in Social Media.
(DIR) Post #ASclkKHaJw5ontAZMW by olavf@spacey.space
2023-02-13T03:35:34Z
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@misty my understanding is that user profiles/data are domain-based, rather than identity-based. So a full migration isn't just moving data, it's whole-sale rewriting of database fields. Vs a global UID and the nodes only need to know where your identity isHubzilla (Zot) does the latter but it's a smaller protocol and perhaps a few too many features.
(DIR) Post #AScmrhuywWBa5ZgGOm by 11thJeff@sfba.social
2023-02-13T03:48:06Z
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@misty This is absolutely the most important update @Gargron needs to make. Users need ownership of their data and their history. Facebook would be nothing today if users randomly lost their back catalogue, all their photos, all their history.A social network does not survive if it's all in the hands of a random admin to shutdown at will.
(DIR) Post #AScnBnJqZUpgdDtCVM by escapadesrpg@mastodonapp.uk
2023-02-13T03:51:43Z
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@misty i would find it cathartic.I hate the idea of all my nonsense sitting on servers burning energy.I hope they shut down #birdSite too, maybe like once a year.
(DIR) Post #AScnIf7VSC5DEJOMPg by amart@hachyderm.io
2023-02-13T03:52:59Z
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@misty @fd_vgn Agree that migrating post history should be a choice. Some people prefer the ephemeral nature of life, leaving as few footprints as possible. Others just realize they don’t have much to say that is of any real value long term to others.
(DIR) Post #AScoDo5YmUiNYGjKls by ravensview@ottawa.place
2023-02-13T04:03:18Z
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@misty But your posts on your old instance were affected by the rules there as well as the interconnections you had and what they posted. On your new instance , it's different rules and different interconnections, would it be right to drop all your old posts in the laps of your new neighbours?
(DIR) Post #AScp4g1fUNKdtS7Vo0 by patrickhills@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T04:12:50Z
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@misty Exactly! 100% agree. The ability to move is meaningless if you can’t take your identity (including posts) with you. I just moved from Hachyderm to Mastodon.social simply as a longterm play because I didn’t want to lose post history (it was painful to lose what I had at my last instance, even). FWIW, they are aware and are working on solutions– https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/12423
(DIR) Post #AScpVJlUMXymffFuwS by BogDrakonov@cryptodon.lol
2023-02-13T04:17:36Z
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@misty I’m seriously considering my own server (possibly shared with close friends) for this very reason. Annoyingly complex solution to the problem and not for everyone but also the only current option until migrations can happen.
(DIR) Post #AScqRcklvENMMHitDE by maegul@mas.to
2023-02-13T04:28:13Z
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@misty So my current somewhat inflammatory take on this is that the #Fediverse is more of a Feudalism than a Federation. Until user-account-mobility across instances, and even #Fediverse platforms I’d say, becomes better, we haven’t got a real/meaningful Federation, at least for the purposes of social media.In real world federations, ease of individuals’ movement is fundamental. With our instance bound and especially platform bound accounts, “Feudalism” becomes more accurate.
(DIR) Post #AScqaFnQe5O9lS5488 by zachariah@mas.to
2023-02-13T04:29:48Z
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@misty If you export your archive, and you have a website, you could publish it as HTML (probably need a tool for this), and then put a link in your new Mastodon profile. That way the content lives on in a publicly-accessible archive. No need to involve your new instance.
(DIR) Post #AScs4clftxrveSJ20G by allintensiveporpoises@hachyderm.io
2023-02-13T04:46:19Z
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@misty I was really surprised when I learned you lose your entire post history when you change instances. During the early days of the Big Migration, the common refrain was “just pick any instance—you can always change it later.”
(DIR) Post #AScs8IOVamoNcdDkY4 by Wolfie_Rankin@aus.social
2023-02-13T04:47:08Z
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@misty I thought admins cleared it regularly?
(DIR) Post #ASctwjAMQgXb5RDNoW by celrock@mastodon.stickbear.me
2023-02-13T05:07:26Z
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@misty I can relate, as I sadly, lost nearly 3 months of toots when mygrating to a new instance over the weekend. Thank goodness my followers and blocked users could be mygrated over though. And thankfully, most of the things I spoke of on the old instance, I also spoke of on other social media platforms of mine, with slightly different wording, so as to not be a copy cat all over the place, so all hope isn't lost.
(DIR) Post #ASd0Dlt0AXvoAdbc5g by shacker@zirk.us
2023-02-13T06:17:48Z
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@escapadesrpg @misty If interested, you can go into settings right now and set your content to auto-delete itself after n days/weeks/months! It's actually considered by some to be a courtesy to your host.
(DIR) Post #ASd5mPQo99s2R0kolc by ShrikeTron@techie.community
2023-02-13T07:20:02Z
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@misty Agreed. Surprised this accessibility was only partially thought out.Even migrating Lists, blocks, etc is a pita. You'd thing it would've been one standardized dump (in json) that can be completely imported somewhere else.Instead, it's a lot of manual work and gotchas. Fairly typical of cowboy programming.
(DIR) Post #ASd5qkA70pLnt80mae by stoicmike@zirk.us
2023-02-13T07:20:50Z
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@misty I had no idea that could happen on Mastodon. Is there any way to protect your posts?
(DIR) Post #ASd9PmrtF72uHLtFQ0 by squirrel@social.bau-ha.us
2023-02-13T08:00:43Z
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@misty How to enable migrating posts: Identify accounts through a digital signature with a key owned by a person, not a password owned by a server. Have each person sign all their data. Any server can now replicate it forever even if one disappears. Allow people to publish a new signed document telling what their preferred servers are. The person can publish this document to any server on the network even if one disappears.
(DIR) Post #ASdBMC5piOltGKpI3M by DuncanHolmes@mastodon.art
2023-02-13T08:22:31Z
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@misty I just deleted one of my Instagram accounts. Couldn't care less about losing the history, I've still got all the images. It's all ephemeral surely?
(DIR) Post #ASdDSTnizS5npQTtKq by slyecho@mdon.ee
2023-02-13T08:46:03Z
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@misty You can get an archive of your posts and media.It should not be impossible to also import that in the new server. Or the migration could be done using API calls between the servers.But the big thing is that the posts that are copied all over the fediverse need to be updated now to point to the new URL. The old server could redirect to the new one like it already does for moved users, but obviously it's a problem when the old instance dies.
(DIR) Post #ASdFGvwej1sRY6HTDE by kalleboo@bitbang.social
2023-02-13T09:06:23Z
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@misty I felt this just migrating off of Lunarstorm/MySpace/Twitter so on Mastodon I set up a script to mirror my "content" posts (rather than just the ephemeral "chat" posts that are just social) to a blog on my website. This feels better than just leaving everything in a feed tens of thousands of post long where content just goes to die anyway.
(DIR) Post #ASdGpWAsdDDhiEzNj6 by d@waferbaby.com
2023-02-13T09:23:52Z
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@misty This was one of the reasons I wanted to host my own (and, obviously, that's not for everyone.)
(DIR) Post #ASdJyLxQHsBEUfbCsK by philsherry@home.social
2023-02-13T09:59:03Z
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@misty I see this problem like moving email servers with only the contacts and not the email—mostly pointless when lots of email is at stake. The problem of moving email servers with all data intact has long been solved (slightly painfully, in lots of cases), so we should absolutely be able to do this, as you say.
(DIR) Post #ASdMhvlaCFwaUcvD84 by escapadesrpg@mastodonapp.uk
2023-02-13T10:29:46Z
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@shacker @misty should be the default for everything.
(DIR) Post #ASdlrkcWzQUzfrT25w by hammancheez@c.im
2023-02-13T15:11:38Z
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@misty I was wondering if there would be an ability for a 'parking' instance thats only role is to mirror your posts/etc in an archive for replication to your new active instance. Even if its just a pseudo instance held on your laptop (to avoid any cloud storage/bandwidth issues)
(DIR) Post #ASdoBNJzWZrd76HT1M by alcea@pb.todon.de
2023-02-13T15:36:59Z
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@misty Yup.WriteFreely has content migration implemented wonderfully.Loosing toots sücks...
(DIR) Post #ASdr8Wc0pEDmvD2h4y by OneBlindMouse@mastodon.scot
2023-02-13T16:10:39Z
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@misty You could blog them. I know it's not resident on Mastodon but at least the history is protected and you can link to your old posts in your bio.My instance has gone down a couple of times and temporarily (they do seem committed to keeping it going) and I backup what I can... just in case.
(DIR) Post #ASdryuIpzMmvSJ3F7w by pdc@octodon.social
2023-02-13T16:20:04Z
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@misty I think the best approach if you want a permanent archive of your toots may be to view ActivityPub as ephemeral & to duplicate your posts on something you have control over. This is the logic behind the IndyWeb practice of POSSE
(DIR) Post #ASdwyNfFpyIc046ZOK by btaroli@federate.social
2023-02-13T17:16:04Z
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@misty @LibertyForward1 but don’t posts auto-expire anyway? Maybe some hosts don’t but all the ones I use do.
(DIR) Post #ASe05IXLbDzVzFOeAa by a@social.exozy.me
2023-02-13T17:50:57Z
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@helge @misty Of course, you could implement post migration by making a brand new copy of each post on the new instance, but then it wouldn't *actually* be real post migration.
(DIR) Post #ASe0BeXehMLTyIZSLo by RenewedRebecca@oldbytes.space
2023-02-13T04:00:11Z
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@11thJeff @misty @Gargron The problem is you're not dealing with 'a' social network. You're dealing with a whole bunch of them that just happen to be able to talk to each other.
(DIR) Post #ASe0BfCmETEs1poIRk by 11thJeff@sfba.social
2023-02-13T04:33:15Z
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@RenewedRebecca @misty @Gargron Which makes data portability even more important. Hopping networks should have been part of the user-centric design from day one.
(DIR) Post #ASe0Bfma5LsXosYtFo by RenewedRebecca@oldbytes.space
2023-02-13T16:20:15Z
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@11thJeff @misty @Gargron Sure, but it complicates the heck out of things, because you want centralized-system features out of a decentralized system.I'd hate to be the admin of an instance when a whole bunch of people with multi-year histories of daily posts including audio and video suddenly wants to import that entire history without warning. What you're expecting isn't realistic, especially out of a service that's not ad-supported nor subscription supported.I guess what I'm saying is you shouldn't expect to get all of twitter's features without paying twitter's (hidden) costs.
(DIR) Post #ASe0BgGiHJyvKKexDk by 11thJeff@sfba.social
2023-02-13T16:25:42Z
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@RenewedRebecca @misty @Gargron You've got a point there about video, but audio is relatively cheap, and at the very least the text of posts, even in a multi-year history amounts to a fraction of a single video in data throughput.So no, I don't see this as particularly unreasonable, to ask a host to assume the responsibility of hosting. And even a partial record, with broken media links, is far better than no record at all. Admins should not be feudal lords meting user data to their vassals.
(DIR) Post #ASe0BgiibCNojBlJs8 by RenewedRebecca@oldbytes.space
2023-02-13T16:42:10Z
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@11thJeff @misty @Gargron Honestly, I think a better solution would be to come up with a way to host the history on basically just any random website and link to it from the new host. The bonus is once you've exported that history and plopped it down somewhere, it doesn't have to be moved any more and it also doesn't have to become the responsibility of some other host.You want x years of history? Cool- pay to host that yourself. Add features to the ActivityPub protocol to be able to see those links and treat them the way they would anything else.Otherwise, sure, import the history into the new instance as you're saying, but I think it should require a fee. Why require an otherwise free service to do this?
(DIR) Post #ASe0Bh9ez1vy4kMprk by 11thJeff@sfba.social
2023-02-13T16:43:37Z
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@RenewedRebecca @misty @Gargron Too many steps.
(DIR) Post #ASe0BhlEjJzXxHwqR6 by RenewedRebecca@oldbytes.space
2023-02-13T17:12:41Z
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@11thJeff @misty @Gargron Too much entitlement.
(DIR) Post #ASe0BiEexvWlQXiLIW by 11thJeff@sfba.social
2023-02-13T17:32:09Z
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@RenewedRebecca @misty @Gargron Yikes. If an admin ever had that kind of attitude, that kinda proves my point in this 🧵.
(DIR) Post #ASe0BilczLtn4n8fgW by misty@digipres.club
2023-02-13T17:51:58Z
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@11thJeff @RenewedRebecca @Gargron Can you please untag me?
(DIR) Post #ASe2g6nMPwneC3ZDJQ by fpl_rock@fpl.social
2023-02-13T18:20:00Z
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@misty completely agree. Glad I migrated early on.
(DIR) Post #ASe4zJ0RRQPpTXy1HE by sotolf@social.linux.pizza
2023-02-13T18:45:54Z
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@misty I delete all my posts when they get over 60 days old anyway, I don't see why I would want my stuff following me forever.
(DIR) Post #ASe6nUvfUBjMt5EQZU by NoahH@universeodon.com
2023-02-13T19:06:10Z
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@misty just goes to show the danger of putting our reliance on proprietarianism that sees our effort as their cash cow.
(DIR) Post #ASe8Y4KuH8MTyXo7uK by herbt@halifaxsocial.ca
2023-02-13T19:25:47Z
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@misty I’m going to setup a blog somewhere that sends the posts to my mastodon account. That way they all exist elsewhere. There’s also probably an easy way to leverage your mastodon built in RSS feed as a backup. Add it to your feed reader, and export whenever you want.
(DIR) Post #ASeJyB9CfmOW7ozCQi by GabeMoralesVR@mastodon.gamedev.place
2023-02-13T21:33:45Z
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@misty I can very easily see how the ability to transfer entire posting histories across instances could be a nightmare. Imagine running an instance when another instance shuts down, and suddenly each migrating user also comes with tens of thousands of posts and image uploads all at the same time. What was once a migration of a few kilobytes could turn into a massive server load all at once.
(DIR) Post #ASeKs18t3hCXJNSpaC by hallam@infosec.exchange
2023-02-13T21:43:48Z
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@misty Not so difficult from a technical point of view - provided people are using a dedicated client which can be told to keep a local copy of everything.
(DIR) Post #ASeXcCPog1L12rAc7s by miki@dragonscave.space
2023-02-14T00:06:37Z
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@misty We also need more tools to make better decisions about where to migrate. For example, it’s currently impossible to see what followers I would lose from migrating due to blocks from either side, and I feel like that is an explicit choice that somebody made.
(DIR) Post #ASeZ1EVO8y0IijHFxo by John@socks.masto.host
2023-02-14T00:20:18Z
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@simon @misty I've thought about this. Let me know if I'm heading off in the right or wrong direction.The toots we hold on our current server are a little like URLs. They are stored in our database, but they are referenced by a path. They are connected throughout the fediverse by their location.We could copy the content, but all links would be broken. Nothing that was in a reply thread would match up.To make it work would require massive link updates?
(DIR) Post #ASeZVSbYHqQr8WZdkO by JStark@mastodon.social
2023-02-14T00:27:07Z
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@misty i had my account disabled after spending a weekend getting myself migrated over... didn't have any response from mod... any explanation... and no response to request for appeal. Lost all my list of folk from twitter and had to start from scratch again this weekend. Sux a lot... @disabled.social sucks and the mod sucks ... booo
(DIR) Post #ASed1v9XypEUo4e276 by simon@fedi.simonwillison.net
2023-02-14T01:05:33Z
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@John @misty yeah you're right that avoiding breaking old links would require a lot of difficult work - but my hunch is that most people (myself included) would be happy just to recreate their content on a new server with new, broken URLs but with the timestamps backdated to reflect when they wrote that original contentThat's something that's possible to do today, provided you know how to insert rows into your own instance's PostgreSQL database
(DIR) Post #ASehrovcleKENP8SuG by syntaxseed@phpc.social
2023-02-14T02:01:30Z
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@misty I wonder if some of the concerns about it causing a spike in load might have a compromise solution.Like, download all your posts... but automatically migrate your 100 most recent posts (or 100 top liked posts).
(DIR) Post #ASeln2kiLHs1cU0gWu by jiva@devoe.social
2023-02-14T02:44:59Z
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@misty @tenjinuk can you just export them and then import them on your new account before you migrate your followers?
(DIR) Post #ASfKcWaQZnY5MIuzoG by 444.koyu@koyu.space
2023-02-14T09:15:45Z
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@misty that feature isn't a thing yet, but if you want to have it there's probably people out there that want to submit some code
(DIR) Post #ASff7Dw3y7KpZdxCr2 by lacraia@mastodon.social
2023-02-14T13:05:24Z
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@misty Why? I’ve started using Mastodon fully aware that all my toots are eventually gone. Same goes for all other social networks I’ve used. If you’re posts—not only on Mastodon, but anywhere—are that precious to you, you should always post it to somewhere where you are in control. That is, your own domain and preferably on software you can keep around even if your infrastructure goes away. I know it’s a costly and nerdy solution, but that’s the cost to own your output.
(DIR) Post #ASfm0cvbLdCwjsXVcO by LeslieVS1965@mas.to
2023-02-14T14:22:39Z
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@shacker Since I saved not one iota of my posts on the bird site when I banged out days after Elon got it, might as well set my stuff to expire...
(DIR) Post #ASgK7OXIeUbMZVZUCe by silverpill@mitra.social
2023-02-14T20:44:17.452192Z
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@a @helge @misty What we need to do to make it real? Switch to content addressing?I think if post IDs are bound to a specific domain, simply copying posts is as good as anything else.
(DIR) Post #ASgWlm57jELYd8Pg6C by jujube@mstdn.social
2023-02-14T23:04:38Z
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@simon @John @misty A quite sensible solution. The links may be broken but the content is there with proper timestamps.
(DIR) Post #ATCXgA950L9SIM5nRw by boringaccount@mastodon.social
2023-03-02T09:47:33Z
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@mistyTrue