Post ASLrKA6yg8UZdfuCPI by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
(DIR) More posts by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
(DIR) Post #ASL4MfsCfHWkyHYyfY by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:33:35Z
1 likes, 4 repeats
Ok, so now that I’ve had a moment to breathe, let me take a few minutes to dive into the study I just published about Russian involvement in the 2022 truck convoy in Canada. The study can be read in full here: https://journals.lib.sfu.ca/index.php/jicw/article/view/5101
(DIR) Post #ASL4MgQabR26gveRGa by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:36:26Z
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So first, it's important to understand that Russia's propaganda & disinformation ecosystem is made up different parts that may appear independent, but are really like machines in an assembly line. They work together to manufacture, launder, tailor, & disseminate content. This assembly line includes overt state-funded propaganda, as well as media figures, proxy websites, fake social media personas, and more. 2/
(DIR) Post #ASL4Mgu0q2ZKABPw80 by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:38:22Z
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In this study, I focused on three main pillars of that ecosystem:-Overt Russian state-funded propaganda (RT)-Proxy sites connected to Russian intelligence (SouthFront, Global Research), which allow some degree of plausible deniability on the surface. -Social media (in this case, Telegram groups that were set up for the truck convoy but which later became repositories for Russian propaganda). I used a mix of OSINT tools & techniques, including GDELT.
(DIR) Post #ASL551N660eCOA9xyq by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:39:45Z
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The first major finding is that Russian-funded propaganda outlet RT produced a higher volume of television coverage focused on the truck convoy than any other international media outlet. In fact, RT produced more convoy coverage than nearly all other international media outlets COMBINED. 4/
(DIR) Post #ASL551ti8kje1JQ0oa by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:41:20Z
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Russian-funded propaganda outlet RT (below, in orange) was also the first international media outlet to mention the truck convoy on-air, and as you can see, the peak volume far outpaced any other media outlet. RT's early dominance is strategically important because it may have provided an opportunity for RT to set the tone for subsequent international media coverage. Given that RT's tone is whatever aligns with Russian state interests, this is significant. 5/
(DIR) Post #ASL552LiSd8XQAWNSy by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:42:53Z
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Another notable trend: When RT's coverage drops off, Fox News' coverage starts to sharply increase, almost like the two outlets are in a symbiotic relationship. We know from previous reports that RT takes cues from Fox News, and this may be further evidence of such a relationship. 6/
(DIR) Post #ASL552mIrmP6kcxbuK by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:45:24Z
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In the associated word clouds, notable themes include the prominent use of the keywords “NATO” & “Ukraine” by RT, which disappeared once RT’s coverage was removed from the input. Similarly, the keyword “nazi” only appeared when RT’s coverage was included. To me, this suggests an interesting intermingling of Freedom Convoy coverage, and coverage related to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, which was happening at the same time. Perhaps the convoy was used as a distraction? 7/
(DIR) Post #ASL5PgHjgqVT4UVGyG by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:47:04Z
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I also looked at RT's online coverage of the truck convoy. I found that RT[.]com published 250+ articles about the truck convoy, and the linguistic patterns (repetitive uses of specific words & phrases) were suggestive of internal language guidance, which is a tactic RT is known to use. The tone of coverage was sympathetic towards convoy organizers/participants, portraying them as victims of a "tyrannical" government. 8/
(DIR) Post #ASL5PgwVFH7H6vZpVw by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:49:24Z
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I also looked at convoy coverage on Russian proxy sites linked to Russian intel agencies (see article for more info). These sites “occupy an intermediate role between the pillars of the ecosystem with clear links to Russia and those that are meant to be fully deniable." Specifically, I looked at Global Research & SouthFront, both of which produced ongoing coverage of the convoy that often included disinformation & inflammatory rhetoric, plus repeated calls for Trudeau to step down. 9/
(DIR) Post #ASL6PutNTsyMKRmoGe by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:53:17Z
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I also looked at Telegram channels — some with tens of thousands of members — that were initially set up as truck convoy channels, but I found that over time, a network of them basically became repositories for Russian propaganda, including Kremlin press releases & Russian language content. 10/
(DIR) Post #ASL6PvOvaaD3uIY0Rc by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:55:10Z
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As I noted in the paper, many of the prominent conspiracy theories that circulated in these Telegram channels — including accusations about Canada supporting Nazis in Ukraine — are aligned with Russia’s justifications for invading Ukraine. 11/
(DIR) Post #ASL6Pw09MBz3ljxjSi by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T14:59:41Z
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Tactically, the strategies seen in these truck convoy/Russian propaganda channels — multilingual posting, repurposing channels, cross-platform coordination, etc — have previously been associated with influence campaigns. So there’s alignment w/ content *and* tactics. 12/
(DIR) Post #ASL6PwQ1nygT404OnY by Tilopa@convo.casa
2023-02-04T15:02:24Z
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@rvawonk I blame the useful idiots, who thought clogging up traffic with their trucks was some brave, heroic fight against the forces of evil. .. dummies.
(DIR) Post #ASLCQpsQDHIkmwA1HE by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T15:16:18Z
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So what does this all mean? Well, for one thing, as I noted in the paper, it does NOT mean that Russia was behind the truck convoy. The convoy was a homegrown movement — an extension of anti-lockdown/anti-vaccine protests, which themselves grew out of the Yellow Vest movement. 13/
(DIR) Post #ASLCQqYbgR2stlti1w by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T15:26:33Z
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But as we’ve seen with protest movements around the world, Russia views domestic protest and extremist movements as vehicles for their asymmetric assault on western democracies. They amplify movements like the truck convoy to fracture western societies & promote civil unrest. 14/
(DIR) Post #ASLCQr0G1dACHWpn84 by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T15:40:38Z
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It was also interesting to see Russia make attempts to cultivate support among convoy organizers & participants via interviews & human interest stories to get them to share RT’s content organically — a tactic that has been widely used in influence campaigns run by China. 15/
(DIR) Post #ASLCQrU2EuyzlslZXk by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T15:44:35Z
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In summary: The study documents Russian influence activities in multiple channels, from overt state-funded propaganda outlets, to proxy websites, to social media. It’s the first study providing quantifiable evidence of Russia’s involvement in the convoy, and it demonstrates a strategic interest in the convoy on the part of Russia — which itself should be of interest to Canada. It has also motivated at least Russian propagandist/former RT employee to write an article libeling me. 😏
(DIR) Post #ASLCQs0IIymrNvrKpE by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-04T16:09:50Z
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@rvawonk Can you explain the interests of a Country? Like, in any sort of succinct way? Is it the dirt that has those ideas? The trees? The homes and businesses? The disparate people, none of whom agree? Or the oligarch who run the whole thing?
(DIR) Post #ASLIYKKxxa3n0mT2H2 by Annaeus@mas.to
2023-02-04T17:18:18Z
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@Tilopa @rvawonk The term "useful idiots" comes to mind...
(DIR) Post #ASLIa5ipGmuaGLT864 by rvawonk@newsie.social
2023-02-04T17:18:40Z
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@elliswyatt in this context, it’s mainly strategic interests — so, for example, achieving certain foreign policy outcomes. Russia knows it can’t go to head-to-head with a NATO country, so it uses information warfare/active measures to achieve those goals, instead.
(DIR) Post #ASLIiOYL8nWmyxWWki by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-04T17:20:14Z
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@rvawonk "Russia" is merely a construct, it knows nothing. Same with Canada. It's merely an idea.If you start off with a premise that is inherently flawed, everything else that follows fails as a result.
(DIR) Post #ASLJoITGlWypoNWvLN by antipode77@mastodon.nl
2023-02-04T17:32:28Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk A construct explicitly actualized by all the people living in Russia.So don't tell us it is nothing and non existent.
(DIR) Post #ASLJsbGkogcFGsjCPA by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-04T17:33:17Z
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@antipode77 @rvawonk "All"?There's that falsehood creeping out again.
(DIR) Post #ASLaRUJGHZRH5YYh0a by davey@mindly.social
2023-02-04T20:38:46Z
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@Tilopa @rvawonk Using the pejorative term "useful idiot" expresses our frustration. I wish I had ways to connect with those who expressed their frustration by this civil disobedience and offer them more useful outlets for that energy. The closest I came to something like that is to point out to a right-wing colleague how surprising it was that he endorsed a video originating with official Pakistani media, something inconsistent with his values or prejudices.
(DIR) Post #ASLp0Ri5L2PkWHjVaa by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-04T23:22:03Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Putin-Flynn-GOP is a construct that is real and must be countered in real space
(DIR) Post #ASLrKA6yg8UZdfuCPI by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-04T23:48:02Z
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@M_U @antipode77 There we go, you're getting it. People are real. They do real things.Now to get you to let go of that partisanship and have the introspection to understand that the gov't you like ... is hated by others.
(DIR) Post #ASLs5ANNVr3i4NzRXE by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-04T23:56:26Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 I definitely hate the Kremlin that you serve
(DIR) Post #ASM2oAqLcaNO5kdkqe by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T01:56:42Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Ahh yes, being opposed to gov't in general is the work of a gov't stooge.I'll let you in on a secret, all gov'ts are war mongering monsters. Even yours.
(DIR) Post #ASM5HAc9kdRJgixMiO by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T02:24:21Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 My uncle was in the USAF in asia during operation menu. But thanks for ultra-dumb Putinite reactionary takes on this platform, it helps everyone feel more like the Twitter that some might miss.
(DIR) Post #ASM5qocazuvzu49vE0 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T02:30:48Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Your uncle murdering people for a corrupt govt doesnt make me a fan of putin, you get that right? One murderous tyrant, another, I don't see the difference.
(DIR) Post #ASM5xezzAnZs5OMaY4 by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T02:32:02Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 No, being a reactionary and libertarian enemy of the USG is what makes you a Putinite.
(DIR) Post #ASMzA4gsyJssipMV8K by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T12:50:34Z
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@M_U @antipode77 The insanity of the partisan right there. If I'm not for your violent, authoritarian thugs, I have to be for the other violent, authoritarian thugs.No Mu, I am for neither.But you both deserve each other, because neither can exist without the other.
(DIR) Post #ASNNqm7AJLbiSeY2Qy by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T17:27:10Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 The wisdom of the teenage libertarian, nothing like it. Ready for the Jesse Benton sentencing?
(DIR) Post #ASNZMDeZ4VnYLNMn4a by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T19:36:07Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk A "country" or a "corporation" or a "family" or other human collective has interests resulting from some method of aggregating the various interests of its members.
(DIR) Post #ASNiNXK2KORFDsT3aa by mloxton@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T21:17:12Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Fuck off, Ellis
(DIR) Post #ASNjoazOtx0WMxHY4O by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:33:19Z
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@mloxton @rvawonk It's interesting to see the correlation between people who can't remain civil in disagreement, and those who support the idea of a monopoly on violence. In terms of a Venn diagram, it's a perfect circle.
(DIR) Post #ASNjw4HUOTaDF8J22q by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:34:40Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Oh, so what you are saying is that there is homogeneity in membership?Of course not. That "aggregate" view point is shared by virtually no one other than the politician espousing it, and often not even then.
(DIR) Post #ASNkBhf4GFCrirn2pM by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:37:30Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Ahh yes, the people who oppose having a surrogate father figure are the childish ones. You got me, your political understanding is masterfully displayed here.In terms of corrupting the state, it's already corrupt. I fail to see a concern here. All campaign financing is "foreign" from my perspective. It doesn't make any difference where that foreigner lives, their influence in my life is undesirable.
(DIR) Post #ASNkx48gVVPv2wE9bs by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T21:46:02Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Funny, you insist on framing discussions around real people in the real world, yet pretend that Jesse Benton and Rand Paul and Thomas Massie aren't all from the very same real place, a place where we can see how your libertarian values play out in reality. "That foreigner"... hilarious. Libertarians exist free of time and space, up in the clouds with the ghost of Rand and her social security check.
(DIR) Post #ASNlLEWZXwbuCovNom by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:50:25Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Places exist, in that geography exists. But a country is no more real than god is. That there is a term to describe it does not make it real. It is as imaginary as the tooth fairy or any other fantastical idea.If people stopped believing in fairytales, we'd all be a lot better off, but here we are, you, getting deeply offended and irate at the notion of someone disagreeing with your views.
(DIR) Post #ASNlS92yJGpxFFNIjw by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T21:51:38Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 And, like all libertarians, any time you get near power, disaster ensues.When Drumpf and Norquist disbanded the program in Wuhan, the world got covid. That's what happens when people like you are taken seriously, at all.Imagine your "corruption is cool" attitude in everyone you interact with in life. Cool if the mailman steals your mail? Or the FedEx guy "lost" your package? That's Kentucky, your paradise.
(DIR) Post #ASNlbqysKlG46s5Wvw by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T21:53:24Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 I'm not offended, I just like watching libertarians squirm in contradictions as a morbid thing. Helping you make an ass of yourself, and folks associating that with your libertarian fantasies, helps all of humanity ignore your kind.
(DIR) Post #ASNlhHRBOdXxbxushk by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:54:24Z
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@M_U @antipode77 It is a contradiction in terms for a libertarian to seek power, let alone hold it. So perhaps that's your problem? You don't know what a libertarian is?You think trump is a libertarian? He was a life long democrat before picking up the republican ticket. Pretty much the opposite of a libertarian.I never said corruption is cool, that was your flawed interpretation of what was said. I simply don't see any difference when an already corrupt system ... is corrupt.
(DIR) Post #ASNlknjpl7zuewJr2e by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T21:54:59Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 If you're over 16 and still have this worldview in an unironic, honest way, that's incredible.
(DIR) Post #ASNlm9PWfPfGAHSp3A by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:55:16Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Not squirming at all. But for certain, the only one making an "ass of ones self" is you. You've leaped into insulting a total stranger who made the mistake of disagreeing with your world view.
(DIR) Post #ASNlr2h34MiamMzavg by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:56:10Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Which world view exactly? Can you even describe my views? From what I've seen you have this strawman of what a libertarian is in your head, and you've been railing against it in the most childish manner.
(DIR) Post #ASNlxsnQGVka6vEfjM by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T21:57:22Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Of course I can "describe your views", I've dealt with semi-nihilist pothead libertarians since the late 80s. They're pretty dumb and easy to encapsulate.
(DIR) Post #ASNm0TlBnycxKcQf6O by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:57:53Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Then let's all hear it. If you know me so well, put your money where your mouth is.
(DIR) Post #ASNm8wyT4UC8FpgBBg by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T21:59:22Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 "It's all, like, a construct, man, like Nietzsche says, man, you're, just like, expressing resentment. Government is always, like, bad, man, when it becomes government. And all nations and states are just, like, stupid constructs, anyways." *exhale* *cough*
(DIR) Post #ASNmBoYOpp6h0WqsGe by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T21:59:56Z
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@M_U @antipode77 What part of that is wrong precisely?
(DIR) Post #ASNmJqxnl9KSnWZC08 by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:01:21Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Enjoy the Jesse Benton sentence!Send Jesse a real-world care package in the slammer if your politics have any substance.
(DIR) Post #ASNmRSJ1JvA6dj7Hxw by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:02:45Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Why would you believe I would support a politician or one of their sycophants?See what I mean, you haven't the faintest idea of what my positions are. You just got offended that I didn't agree with you, so you decided to be abrasive from the get go for no other particular reason.
(DIR) Post #ASNmX8kUweIHisgCfI by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:03:46Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Those words won't make Jesse's average 2025 day go any faster, but a dog-eared copy of "Atlas Shrugged" might!
(DIR) Post #ASNmf9ll2FbtCi5j84 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:05:14Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Just an FYI, there is a psychological condition called ODD, you might want to ask a doctor about it. Because what you have displayed here today is not normal behaviour.
(DIR) Post #ASNmzRNpFxwrcmZNTs by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:08:52Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Yes, when you have a comprehensively ODD-type response to politics, we call that person a "libertarian". Like you.
(DIR) Post #ASNnHlH22jVOWg7zbk by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:12:13Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Not at all, quite the opposite in fact. I am more than happy to have opposition. In fact, I explicitly seek it out as a means to learn new positions and grow my own. That's precisely how you and I started talking.But for some reason, you saw opposition as a personal attack, and you have been consistent in your approach attempting to insult me.What I have a problem with is the non-consentual nature of gov't. And it boggles the mind that in a post-#metoo world, that consent hasn't reached a higher level in peoples minds. Perhaps it was all a partisan sham, I suspect it was.
(DIR) Post #ASNnOugXRy8Bk4T7Mu by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:13:29Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 How old were you when you realized that everything that Rand wrote was jive, and that she lived off socialism her whole life?
(DIR) Post #ASNnbgKy6fTB0WT4hk by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:15:48Z
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@M_U @antipode77 See, this is what I am getting at.Rather than being civil, rather than having a conversation, your only goal is to attempt to upset me somehow, and that this is what a normal adult human being ought to do when confronted with a differing opinion.
(DIR) Post #ASNnfUpcpGDeTwctFo by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:16:29Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Do you think it says something about you that most intellectual types have that moment at 18 or so, and you're still out here in your thirties with it?
(DIR) Post #ASNnoc41J2RlWChrdI by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:18:08Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Their failures are their own.There is no age at which is becomes acceptable to take what isn't yours. There is no age at which it becomes acceptable to use coercion against peaceful people.It is sad that you think there is.
(DIR) Post #ASNntPUXTd8DySOjhY by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:18:59Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Ah, right, it's the developmental phase thing. Libertarians often never really get past the "not your toys" thing at age 4-6.
(DIR) Post #ASNnwJl5FVJp3tWUTo by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:19:32Z
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@M_U @antipode77 So then you do think it is acceptable to take what isn't yours?
(DIR) Post #ASNo1jKnaLwFpfoF9s by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:20:30Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 This is why Drumpf was effectively a libertarian, and a natural partner with Norquist in unleashing covid.Because it's the worldview of an unreformed narcissistic late toddler. Folks in your personal life probably have mentioned that exact model to you before, right?
(DIR) Post #ASNo84kwqvMy0a4Aym by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:21:40Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Trump has more in common with you than he does me.He, like you, believed that if he wants something, this justifies whatever it takes to get it.
(DIR) Post #ASNoGkhKnY9IPAVt2W by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:23:13Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Assigning beliefs to a stranger!That's rude.So, Ellis, do you think your libertarian politics are your signature, or your lazy processing of things like Rand characters, and general aversion to creative approaches and actual labor, is what makes you a Rand Paul type?
(DIR) Post #ASNoUcCDCmFc5gZAvY by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T22:25:43Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Homogeneity? You mean everybody agrees? No, people in groups big or small usually have to make compromises. I think if you're married you get that.
(DIR) Post #ASNoUsul2vOFwTWya8 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:25:47Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Given that you oppose my views, the implication is that you share his views.Again, why do you think I support any politician? I mean, I've explicitly stated that I don't support any politician on the outset, so why do you continue to suggest otherwise?And to be clear, not only am I not in the US, but also, Paul has more in common with you than he does me.
(DIR) Post #ASNojGBDLIyE9X5CQy by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:28:21Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 You're the pothead-libertarian that becomes an anarchist when rhetorically cornered. That isn't rare, nor is it rare for a 110 IQ fash type to use a Rand character and dumb AI face.
(DIR) Post #ASNokdiTJv4xRIISZc by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:28:38Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk I wouldn't suggest a married couple are some grey sludge as is necessary to discuss the "needs" of an entire country either.Marriages often break up, to the tune of more than half. This suggests that their being married is to fulfill their own individual needs, and when the time comes that this association is no longer functional, to disassociate. They never become "one". It's impossible for that to happen.So, compromise, as you put it, is the function of the individual members willingly consenting to the choice to remain associating. This isn't the case in the present conceptualization of country.
(DIR) Post #ASNoqqcQGK05C1QZ60 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:29:45Z
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@M_U @antipode77 See, you've mistaken. I am an anarchist. Explicitly so. But hey, you ran with the name and thought you had me all figured out.I picked this name because like my Kulak grandparents, he burned his property to the ground rather than give it up to thieves. No more, no less.
(DIR) Post #ASNozBp3JMINGuJS3k by M_U@toot.community
2023-02-05T22:31:15Z
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@elliswyatt @antipode77 Well, you're a great example of the idea that not all of Stalin's 1930 program was bad or misguided.
(DIR) Post #ASNp3GtOP35y9dHzRw by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:32:00Z
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@M_U @antipode77 Oh, was starving millions a good thing now?
(DIR) Post #ASNpAFiNBEYsWqSntA by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T22:33:14Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Depends on the available alternatives. A sandwich with a little bit of poop is better than a solid poop sandwich.There's probably a way to renounce your citizenship --I never checked. I imagine my life would be worse if I went that route.
(DIR) Post #ASNpL2XAWg6ippMno0 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:35:13Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Perhaps I don't want to eat poop at all, and being forced to eat, even a little bit is macabre?There isn't, it is "illegal" to be stateless.And their opinion of "what" I am is up for them to figure out, I fail to see why their opinion obligates my action.
(DIR) Post #ASNpzPepyKTq8RCllI by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T22:42:29Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Well yeah poop is disgusting. Humans form all kinds of groups --kinship clans, hunting clubs, professional organizations, labor unions, corporations, guilds, cities, provinces, nations, think tanks, religious orders, cults, schools, mutual aid societies, neighborhood watch organizations, etc. You can't always opt out but usually there's a way if you're motivated. If you don't like the US there are other countries out there.
(DIR) Post #ASNqJGNMBww78hUgvA by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:46:05Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk If I give you a short video on the idea of moving would you listen? It covers my position quite succinctly.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb8Rj5xkDPkI am all for with organizing, provided it is done voluntarily, and thus far, that's not possible.
(DIR) Post #ASNqj2GBIQhStCQWau by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T22:50:44Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Eh I dunno I am procrastinating stuff I have finish tonight.My point is, "voluntary" is a problematic category. I might go on a long drive to visit my husband's relatives even though I'd rather clean the basement. I wouldn't have to make choices like this if I were single, but better or worse I pick marriage.
(DIR) Post #ASNqz4bULmMSn82Zo8 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:53:39Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk But again, you choose the drive over the basement because maintaining your marriage (I should hope such a thing wouldn't cause problems but here we are) is more valuable to you than staying home.The state imposes edicts, forces association. For instance, some of your taxes are presently being used to fund the care of child rapists. You are funding unending war overseas. You are funding a war on drugs that predominately affects blacks.
(DIR) Post #ASNr9UF9sQLDCwYrgm by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T22:55:31Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Same with corporations.
(DIR) Post #ASNrDX719Xy9GNgPLc by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T22:56:16Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Corporations are the product of the gov't. So is that really that unexpected?
(DIR) Post #ASNrj1vsc6UxpOUadE by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T23:01:56Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Everything is a product of government. There's a law defining "coffee" even "cup of coffee." The water I drink exists because certain laws define what can be in it. The air I breath, same. The sound level around my home, same. So the fact that laws define "corporation" doesn't seem special.
(DIR) Post #ASNsnHaISi8TU3zMK8 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T23:13:55Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk The issue is that what you displayed here is known as an is-ought fallacy. While yes, the gov't is involved in labelling cups of coffee and regulating (to an extent) water, this does not imply however that both of these things did exist prior to that regulation, and can again. Not only is the non-consentual relationship with them unnecessary, but it is unjustifiable. If the group of people that call themselves walmart were saying that you can only buy products of a given class at their stores, you'd rightfully tell them to pound sand. And there is no reason why you can't to the group of people that call themselves gov't.
(DIR) Post #ASNtDEo5PaCoOloahc by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T23:18:36Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk How do I buy a cup of coffee if those words aren't defined?I guess you are saying someone other than the US government can define those things. Fine. But so what? A rose by any other name...
(DIR) Post #ASNtURektHjbAoehnM by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T23:21:43Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk There is a difference between things coming together organically and being foisted down from on high. And it's not nearly at all limited to defining terms (after all the gov't is not involved in the authorship of dictionaries). But rather, limitations to living ones life, choosing for yourself who best to serve your needs, which services you must partake, etc etc etc. As I pointed out, you were forced to fund the wars your gov't caused and participated in. Do you not see a problem with that?
(DIR) Post #ASNtn6wU84NyQqqhYu by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T23:25:05Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk I don't know coffee agriculture, the different plant varieties, the best way to process the beans so they aren't contaminated with heavy metals, etc. I'm happy previous generations set some standards so I can focus on other things.If we defunded the USDA I don't think I would feel more free. I'd probably just feel more poisoned.
(DIR) Post #ASNu7RFAMJzzBfHPc0 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T23:28:47Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk I imagine, given that not only that people have found out how to do those things, but have come to the understanding that poisoning customers is a bad business model, that it's again, unnecessary for the gov't to be involved in the process.
(DIR) Post #ASNviG1B9sMn2YrFx2 by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T23:46:37Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Heavy metal contamination of water sources and arable land is sadly fairly common. The public don't know when there's too much lead or mercury in a product they ingest because the damage happens gradually.
(DIR) Post #ASNvsTaVYpkC1RFuOu by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T23:48:29Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Which occurs in spite of a seven trillion dollar authoritarian gov't that monopolizes the services of food safety.Now do you understand the problem of having a forced monopoly? They are failing to do the job you want them to do ... and they are the only game in town.
(DIR) Post #ASNw7uWhgaKjulpsps by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T23:51:15Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk How do you know that regulators are willfully failing to do their jobs? Maybe they need more employees or resources. Maybe we need better surveillance guidelines.
(DIR) Post #ASNwFe9wQFKjTAsTzs by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T23:52:40Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk And that's the problem with gov't, given they have effectively unlimited funds, the solution to every single failure is to simply provide them more resources.Without a market for their services, there is no means to determine whether or not they are using the resources they are given efficiently.
(DIR) Post #ASNwUuseXHC9fn4Y1g by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-05T23:55:24Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk I don't understand how a market for regulators would work. Seems that would burden customers with a confusing variety of standards which would make comparison shopping difficult.Okay nice chatting but I gotta be good and focus on work!
(DIR) Post #ASNwYhgNY00ftm8Z1M by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-05T23:56:07Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Have a good one, was a pleasure talking to you.
(DIR) Post #ASO3WWK5VhE9lecIng by mloxton@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-06T01:14:08Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Very interesting, but still, fuck off, Ellis
(DIR) Post #ASO4IO6vLYEOCJHhLM by worm@sfba.social
2023-02-06T01:22:46Z
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@M_U @antipode77 @elliswyatt A story as fake as your GAN profile pic.
(DIR) Post #ASOBJUU1q1NbvlZ3Z2 by magnesium@infosec.exchange
2023-02-06T02:41:25Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk it's very easy to throw out accusations of inaccuracies without any tangible value of your own. At no point do you explain why the premise is flawed that you claim invalidates any of the claims. This is a typical tactic of asymmetric arguments.
(DIR) Post #ASOCe6KuuXUh4kh6TQ by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-06T02:56:21Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk This is interesting and relevant to OP's toot. A libertarian following Russia's attacks on Ukraine since the Maidan uprising describes"Nine Lessons of Russian Propaganda."https://youtu.be/QI2MRn1eQCI
(DIR) Post #ASOIn73KDUnNd197FQ by aardvark@ioc.exchange
2023-02-06T04:05:13Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk look, my first Russian troll to block on Mastodon!
(DIR) Post #ASOxnNj2K9CrSUu3P6 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-06T11:44:41Z
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@magnesium @rvawonk I have explicitly explained how I support my position. Namely that countries are not tangible things, but rather ideas that some people subscribe to. That there is no such person who is an aggregate canadian, or russian, or whatever.
(DIR) Post #ASPB5eaXfJ6mNIyNoe by magnesium@infosec.exchange
2023-02-06T14:13:38Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk I'm sorry, you did say that before and I didn't understand your philosophical ideal as an actual position. I just assumed that you'd recognize existing norms of government and economy as well, but I can see how ignoring established conventions to support your ideal would decouple you from a reality where the motivation made sense.This has been an interesting thought experiment
(DIR) Post #ASPIzXK4Z62VjjrbTU by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-06T15:42:11Z
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@magnesium @rvawonk The issue is, that people believe in gov't and countries and other fantastical ideas is not up for debate, they like those who believe in god, exist, and do terrible things when those fantasies are under attack no doubt.The issue here is I am refuting the reality of that belief, not the objective fact that the belief is held.
(DIR) Post #ASPKWTWfnnTdTJ1mIS by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-06T15:59:20Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk The issue with this is he makes the same basic falsehood that OP does, the aggregation of a disparate and uninvolved people with a group of actors who are merely found bounded by the same arbitrary political mapping and nothing more.The problem with this premise is it makes enemies where there are none and serves only to expand xenophobia.
(DIR) Post #ASPNnAQ8OAL10DcVLE by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-06T16:35:57Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Well... words or categories or generalizations are aggregations. It's difficult to have a conversation if we insist every set must have firm rather than messy boundaries.Aggressors force humans to aggregate. Individuals can't fight invading looters alone.
(DIR) Post #ASPQ1MkFYzNtBkvYES by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-06T17:00:57Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk The issue with using terms like "russia did this" or "usa did that", is that you are speaking about people who for the most part, didn't do anything. And that's because neither russia or usa exist in any real sense.
(DIR) Post #ASPWMNN320Gmw4TaYS by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-06T18:11:57Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Many Russians don't want a war with Ukraine. Evidence:1. There were large protests in Moscow when the Russian army invaded in Feb 2022. 2. When mobilization was announced, many thousands of military aged people fled the country.3. Russian media actively promotes pretexts that make no sense, eg Ukraine is run by Nazis.Putin and his post KGB secret police state are primarily the ones who want war with Ukraine. If not "Russia" what word for that?
(DIR) Post #ASPp4RLTPgzbBAtuee by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-06T21:41:38Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Russia includes all those who live there. So those dissenters, who disagree with putin are included erroneously when people speak of what russia wants in war.
(DIR) Post #ASPt4zwVBIxqIUk4oa by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-06T22:26:31Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Yeah I see your point but I need another word for the people invading Ukraine.
(DIR) Post #ASPuiAxoEsJhj6bCGO by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-06T22:44:50Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Murderers? Statists? Slaves? Some mish mash of the 3?
(DIR) Post #ASQLZWRbhd5cVHdQ2a by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T03:45:46Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Umm, those words don't name a specific side in an armed conflict.Is it your position that groups of people can't have goals because the members of those groups might not fully agree with the group's goals?
(DIR) Post #ASQLyYVVAcNO8nORaC by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T03:50:20Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk How are they a group in any meaningful way if they don't agree? I mean in the sense of being responsible or guilty of any particular act that is.Some women kill their babies. Is it correct to group all eomen and say women kill their babies? Of course not.Countries are merely arbitrary lines on a map drawn by people who call themselves govts. To claim that people encapsulated by such lines are somehow responsible for the acts of others is equally as absurd.
(DIR) Post #ASQNEZwLi4udAm9gTQ by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T04:04:25Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk I can agree that group members shouldn't be responsible for the actions of other members or for the group as a whole. If we both understand this, perhaps we can say "Ukraine" or "Russia" without getting confused.
(DIR) Post #ASQQJAVK0VkPaxOSSO by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T04:38:53Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk except using the group name explicitly opposes this principle.
(DIR) Post #ASR1RT3qasABljMZpQ by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T05:04:11Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk If we agree that OUR use of group names is not implying anyone is responsible for things they can't control, we should be good. Nobody is here except for me and you. And if someone shows up, they can read the earlier posts about this.
(DIR) Post #ASR1RTodmtas6rFwlV by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T11:34:57Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk But that's the point, , we don't agree. You wish to use an explicit subset of all people, "russians" for instance, to mean not all "russians".The use of a group in such a way makes it impossible to tell which (a subset of the group, or the entire group) is being discussed. And in general serves only to serve tribalism, "they are bad, we are good".
(DIR) Post #ASRQ8AfpEPFC5q1SMa by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T16:11:34Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk So we can't say "Russians" but we don't have another word for what we mean so I guess we can't talk about the invasion of Ukraine. That's fine have a good day!
(DIR) Post #ASRQEIEg1pJjHgF8nw by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T16:12:43Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk You can talk about Russians, as in to discuss people who are subjected to the rule of the Russian gov't, but not to say that "Russians" are doing this or that, because they aren't.
(DIR) Post #ASRS9m8RdS2ITaIlZw by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T16:34:17Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk I'm used to agreeing what certain words mean once not each time I use them, eg "For our purposes in the context of this conversation, when we say "Russians" we don't mean every single citizen of the Russian Federation, just those involved with the war in Ukraine."I'm exhausted, tbh. I don't remember the point I was hoping to make. Mostly I'm curious about you and why you get stuck but I'd rather just accept that it takes all kinds to make the world go round.
(DIR) Post #ASRSQakPEBXW544nPk by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T16:37:21Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Well that's the goal here, to have a word actually mean something objectively.You are preferring words to be subjectively defined, and alterable moment to moment. And without the understanding of what the other person means at the time, it is impossible to convey information.History is FULL of people using groups to define enemies, translating slights from one member to the next. It never ends up well.
(DIR) Post #ASRSsuEYN7Recmg9Ym by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T16:42:26Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Can you define what you mean by "objective" and "subjective"?
(DIR) Post #ASRTQZi9BIAyovZkw4 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T16:48:32Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Indeed. A word being tautologically defined (4 is the set of all groups of this many things 0 0 0 0), is objective.A word being defined arbitrarily (4 is the set of all groups of this many things 0 0 0 0 unless I mean something else), is subjective.In other means: 100c is the temperature at which pure water boils at sea level is an objective statement, it is true in all cases.80c is hot is subjective, in that it is NOT true in all cases.So to put it in terms of this discussion,Saying that russians describes the set of all people subjected to the russian gov't is objectively true. It is true in all cases.Saying that russians are attacking ukraine, first assumes all ukrainians are being attacked (not true), and that all russians are involved in the process (also not true). So to use it in this case would be subjective, in that it is NOT true in all cases. Some ukrainians are being attacked by some russians.
(DIR) Post #ASRUfEVOPD7hLlABRA by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T17:02:20Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Replace "unless I mean something else" with "unless we mean something else." Together we can define what our terms mean in the context of a particular conversation.Physics teachers say, "This circle represents a cow with mass X" even though a circle on a black board is not actually a cow.
(DIR) Post #ASRUs1TMAlgIh5JFrM by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T17:04:43Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Except "we" don't mean that, YOU mean that.Using a circle to represent a cow is neither redefining cow nor circle.You wish to redefine the words "russians" to mean "russian soldiers" or "russian gov't". And if that's the goal, why not simply say "russian soldiers" or "russian gov't"?
(DIR) Post #ASRV0I62FWqGZJLNEO by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T17:06:10Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk M'kay I did ask you for another word to describe the Russians invading Ukraine and you offered something like "murderers" or "slaves." C'mon, dude.
(DIR) Post #ASRVAodw61MmPGDeam by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T17:08:06Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk That would be accurate words to use to describe people who are murdering people as a result of their oft conscripted state.
(DIR) Post #ASRVTLgTzN7S5tFPaC by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T17:11:25Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk My friend, I believe you sincerely desire the truth and you mean no one harm. We are getting stuck on basic stuff because we likely have had different experiences. That happens and it is fine. We're moving through this life on different paths and I accept that.
(DIR) Post #ASRVh3hxcXMAOcTatc by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T17:13:56Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk Without conversations on the basic stuff as you put it, there can be no going forwards. I appreciate that unlike EVERY other response I received on this thread, yours was the least abrasive. Some limiting themselves to simply telling me to fuck off. Not sure how they expect to live in a society when it is inevitable for people to disagree.
(DIR) Post #ASRWBP66exKPQDEwBE by peatbog@med-mastodon.com
2023-02-07T17:19:23Z
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@elliswyatt @rvawonk Everyone is mostly wrong about most things, including me. This existence in this universe is a tough nut to crack.
(DIR) Post #ASRWIRhPNwEJWA2sr2 by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-07T17:20:41Z
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@peatbog @rvawonk All the more reason to understand that this applies at the ballot box and in the minds of politicians too. Being "mostly wrong" about things is not conducive to knowing what is best for others, when it's barely good to know what is best for yourself.
(DIR) Post #ASmWJa0UC7y61MYjVQ by ArenaCops@infosec.exchange
2023-02-06T22:54:00Z
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@rvawonk Putin thought he could significantly weaken the free world's democracies by supporting & funding every conceivable right-wing extremist entity in grownup democracies. Putin also thought, he could defeat free Ukraine & defibrillate the tsarist totalitarian empire within laughable 3 days.He was damn wrong on both!#StandWithFreedom #StandWithUkraine #DefendDemocracy #DefensiveDemocracy #Freedom #Democracy #FreeRussia #PutinsWar #PutinTribunal #FuckPutin
(DIR) Post #ASmWJauUpslsp4lSoC by elliswyatt@social.freetalklive.com
2023-02-17T20:29:48Z
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@ArenaCops @rvawonk You can either agree that the minority should be subjugated to the whims of the majority through democracy, or you can favour freedom. There is no middle ground to be had here.Now where's my russian cheque?