Post ASCeJFPhR5r2xBOtZQ by artcollisions@vis.social
(DIR) More posts by artcollisions@vis.social
(DIR) Post #ASCdhuYs06epZEt1xg by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:02:54Z
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I've been thinking about the lack of algorithmic* feeds in the #Fediverse and wondering how much that is hurting growth and retention. Big social media spend billions on getting and keeping eyeballs, and algorithmic timelines are a huge part of that.I think it's right to avoid it, but I worry that will just forever stunt growth. The alternative is human curators, I think, but I have no idea how to make that happen.*Yes, I know reverse chronological is an algorithm, algo-pedants.#mastodon
(DIR) Post #ASCdp1k7hMh3rqXkEC by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:04:12Z
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Reverse-chronological-timeline-only is a feature for some people, but not _most_ people.
(DIR) Post #ASCdpsoYNcjGSw1WzY by Colman@mastodon.ie
2023-01-31T13:04:24Z
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@john do you really want empty growth if you’re not selling bullshit numbers to VCs?
(DIR) Post #ASCeBiZp7jTB5LXt0y by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:08:19Z
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@Colman What's "empty" growth?From my own selfish perspective, yes, the Fediverse is too small to support the number of creators on here. It needs to grow for that reason .From a broader perspective, I'm afraid that hovering around a couple of million users isn't the kind of change in the internet landscape we needed. It's no where near enough to break the hold of the giants.
(DIR) Post #ASCeJFPhR5r2xBOtZQ by artcollisions@vis.social
2023-01-31T13:09:41Z
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@john I'm not sure it can sustain enormous growth and maybe that's a good thing. It will keep it on a human scale. Does that mean some people are left out and we have walled gardens? I don't know.
(DIR) Post #ASCeOmB13Cui0yAVns by BrianJohnson@universeodon.com
2023-01-31T13:10:40Z
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@john I think a harder (but better) question is, what is good growth?The for-profit networks pushed the "high follower count" and curated feeds as a way to improve business, but that really served the networks, with a debatable value to the businesses. And it is still unclear how many of the "followers" are useless bots.Personally, I am happy with slower growth, and as long as Mastodon remains viable I don't really care if companies pile on to advertise.
(DIR) Post #ASCeQpJwKgVsLQJvqS by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:11:07Z
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@artcollisions I want some societal change to come out of this, not just an okay place to hang out on the internet. The Fediverse has not yet done that.Also, it's just not really big enough for creators to make a living.
(DIR) Post #ASCednNypzT46mOVlY by artcollisions@vis.social
2023-01-31T13:13:24Z
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@john How do you envision the Fediverse enabling societal change? I'm honestly curious, here. And :(
(DIR) Post #ASCeqI5KWa2anMd3nE by Colman@mastodon.ie
2023-01-31T13:15:39Z
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@john it seems to me that the reported numbers for commercial social networks are nonsense, and I’ve been of that opinion for a long time. Also, how much use are users who are there for the ongoing outrage high? Do people who are vibrating with rage actually spend anything?
(DIR) Post #ASCfK5Vlpxe6UECkvw by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:21:03Z
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@BrianJohnson As someone that has made a living out of using social media, there are certainly ways you could naively interpret your numbers, but the network effects are real.
(DIR) Post #ASCfbo6xGlnnjW2xKi by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:24:14Z
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@Colman I think this is a mischaracterisation of Twitter actually. The outrage part of it existed of course (and boy was I sick of it!), but there were also just a whole heap of people there to talk about/follow their interests.
(DIR) Post #ASCfqY6X44XyQssWZM by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:26:44Z
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@artcollisions Breaking the billionaires hold on our attention. Most of the first crop of social media billionaires were I think mostly confused by what they had made, but that will change. Social media will be used very deliberately like the old media for specific agendas (think Rupert Murdoch). We need to have broken their hold before that happens.
(DIR) Post #ASCfrQH1fH1iR4CfQG by Colman@mastodon.ie
2023-01-31T13:26:57Z
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@john I think you’re going to see some experimentation with feeds algorithms designed to promote content and so on - it’s the sort of thing instances can play with. Ethical issues around it though, which will be fun to watch people resolve.
(DIR) Post #ASCfwKL79evdTmSE08 by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:27:57Z
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@Colman Yeah, but I worry they'll just make the same mistakes all over again (because they work!).
(DIR) Post #ASCg1lDIfJuwH8OF6m by Colman@mastodon.ie
2023-01-31T13:28:56Z
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@john incentives for instances are different to commercial set-ups. And defederation is always a risk if they end up creating hell worlds.
(DIR) Post #ASCgKrazA4NLZSZsPI by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:32:19Z
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@Colman Commercial instances are a near certainty if the Fediverse becomes reasonably successful. And I worry the effects are subtle. Not sure we'd recognise it for a long time.On the other hand, at least it wouldn't be one or two billionaires deciding, and that would be a huge win in itself.
(DIR) Post #ASCglX1jk6xRb6o568 by silverwizard@convenient.email
2023-01-31T13:35:12Z
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Honestly, I think algorithms aren't the issue. I think the issue is one of discoverability.It's about being able to cross-server find accounts.Meaning, of course, I think that cross-instance search is the best tool for this. Since it let's people build local feeds with exciting and regular content.
(DIR) Post #ASCglXQYFqo6q4PtmC by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T13:37:07Z
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@silverwizard That's certainly part of it, and I'd like to see it solved.
(DIR) Post #ASClecdMztLOjNvy6K by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T14:31:45Z
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@hypolite In my opinion, there's little point to the whole thing if it doesn't grow to address the problems with current social media.We may as well be hanging out on a big forum (which is fine if you want that, but that's not why I'm here).
(DIR) Post #ASCsbRx6xDLOPfbOmu by xChaos@f.cz
2023-01-31T15:49:47Z
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@john You can always create Fediverse account, which chooses algorithmically who to follow and what to boost.I may even consider programming such bot...
(DIR) Post #ASCteuvhm10R6jA5cu by mojoceratops@mastodon.social
2023-01-31T16:01:39Z
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@john I've been thinking about this too, and how I personally would like some kind of optional 'in case you missed it' algorithm that prioritized posts from people I have a history of liking or responding to, since I've found I miss those often in the pure-chronological timeline
(DIR) Post #ASCuSCMxip2LNwPUki by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T16:10:34Z
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@mojoceratops Yeah, I agree. But I think there's a danger in "or responding to", because that can lead you to seeing people you argue with too often (this happened to me on Facebook, and made my feed an irritating experience).
(DIR) Post #ASCuX4ihabrz6ou7ZA by mojoceratops@mastodon.social
2023-01-31T16:11:25Z
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@john yeah good point, might need to limit to likes only to avoid that feedback loop
(DIR) Post #ASCulbNwwBd0TN7loG by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T16:13:59Z
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@wolfteeth Well, I think it's innovation over forums is that it's all of those things. And in being all of those things it brought a huge number of people that artists can reach (and they do reach people, there's no denying it to popular artists)Personally I actually prefer the forum format, and if I was just doing this for my own amusement/making connections, that's what I'd do.
(DIR) Post #ASCv3deFGMxWhfLZQW by bel_lion@idlethumbs.social
2023-01-31T16:17:17Z
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@john I feel like there needs to be a citation there. I'm totally willing to believe that limited groups of people are put off of fedi because they can't see the 'hot' content first or some other algo - but every person on Twitter I have ever seen comment on algorithmic content resents bring forced to participate. Even making that kind of thing optional poisons the pool for how people interface with the fediverse.
(DIR) Post #ASCvZJkslBF6GzYbRY by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T16:23:05Z
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@bel_lion What sort of citation could I provide you with?All the huge social networks use algorithmic feeds. You may say its so they can control the message, but I say the simpler explanation is that it keeps people engaged because they like it. TikTok is a case in point. Many people love the algorithm there. I'm not saying this is the way to go, but I don't think that just assuming people don't like recommendation algorithms is the way forward either.
(DIR) Post #ASCwKN26OJFO3732lU by bel_lion@idlethumbs.social
2023-01-31T16:31:36Z
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@john I certainly don't debate that the algorithms used by corporate social media keep people engaged with the platform. I simply am unsure that 'liking' it figures into the effect. That's why I asked for a citation. All I have right now is my own observations, which seem to conflict with yours on this issue. I was hoping that you might have some research source I could read and perhaps understand your view better.
(DIR) Post #ASCwjn0UxOObqWQ14K by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T16:36:10Z
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@bel_lion Well, if the fediverse can't do anything to improve growth, the question is completely irrelevant, because people will stay on Twitter/Instagram/TikTok.What would you do or change about the current situation?
(DIR) Post #ASCxaFRYTaJv6A5XjU by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T16:45:33Z
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@john What you call stunted growth, I call organic growth. People come because someone recommends it, stay because they see things they like, don't leave because it's not toxic. This is all good. Slower growth gives time for server admins to scale up and find funding strategies. Exponential growth gets you where you want to be soon enough, even for a small exponent.
(DIR) Post #ASCxnye3jEyJ3NU2s4 by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T16:48:03Z
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@mike Mastodon is currently shrinking, according to metrics I have.
(DIR) Post #ASCz4ieYXWAUKfGNRA by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:02:18Z
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@john That's fine: it's tourists who joined in the initial burst, and never really engaged. They're free to go.
(DIR) Post #ASCzH8rcuk8z6BIgiG by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:04:29Z
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@mike Yea, I'm hoping its a slump after and period of false growth, and real organic growth will return. The truth is though that the Fediverse is just too small for the palaeoart community for example. Growth is needed.
(DIR) Post #ASCzYHmP1Ea5fo21eS by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:07:38Z
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@john To small for the palaeoart community to *what*? I'm seeing more actual communication between you guys here than I ever did on Twitter.
(DIR) Post #ASCzimFyYqSJ5krozQ by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:09:31Z
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@mike Support an audience that leads to Patreon conversions, book sales, commissions, etc. It's mercenary, but there you are, it's how we make a living.
(DIR) Post #ASD0sj6fECegAhosJk by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:22:33Z
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@john OK, you're talking here about a broadcast medium?(Nothing wrong with wanting that, of course; but I think it's a mistake to want THIS to be THAT.)
(DIR) Post #ASD1S3nGJ1zOT0aolM by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:28:57Z
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@mike I don't agree that treating it something like a broadcast medium is a mistake. Twitter and Mastodon are *explicitly* asymmetric to allow this, unlike Facebook where the relationships are symmetric.
(DIR) Post #ASD1cWQgh2YYAw1SBE by bel_lion@idlethumbs.social
2023-01-31T17:30:52Z
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@john I think that getting friction issues like quote-toots, instance-based timeline search (not third party), and similar will do a great deal to retain new prospective users. Giving users the tools to control their own feed at the client level is great! If a client builds an algorithmic timeline feature local to the users cache, that's fine!Where I perceive this being a problem is if such implementations happen at the instance level.
(DIR) Post #ASD1r3GZP4p04TDb04 by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:33:29Z
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@bel_lion I agree, and actually that's what I'm hoping will work. Application-level user-controlled algorithms could be great.
(DIR) Post #ASD1wCf3tsxOeo89xo by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:34:23Z
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@john Interesting. And yet Mastodon is explicitly non-algorithmic. And Facebook's weirdly named concept of "pages" are explicitly asymmetric for just this reason.
(DIR) Post #ASD2ZenTE73NDCsPey by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:41:33Z
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@mike Yes, Facebook added a specific mechanism for it (because Facebook was trying to be an everything app).I'm not sure where in this conversation everyone got the idea that I was arguing that algorithmic timelines are a great idea – I explicitly say the opposite in the first post – my point is that Mastodon competes with big social networks, and algorithmic timelines are a competitive advantage for many, many people. We need to give them something competitive.
(DIR) Post #ASD2hhWixd9fzlsaKu by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:42:58Z
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@john What, other than algorithmic timelines, would be competitive?Also: why would algorithmic timelines delivery you more potential-customer eyeballs than chronological timelines?
(DIR) Post #ASD3XSGMxLnviJuKrg by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T17:52:19Z
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@mike Algorithmic timelines are actually two things mashed together: 1. A filter, prioritising the most popular posts from the people you follow, which is meant to keep the entertainment value high2. A recommendation engine, which is meant to aid in discoveryWe can probably do without the first. The second gets to the huge discoverability problem on Mastodon. People don't know who to follow or how to find stuff that's interesting to them, and they often give up.
(DIR) Post #ASD5MS3rZ8dvoLwH32 by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T18:12:45Z
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@john I am certainly 100% in agreement that discovery is very poor.I think the answer to that is search, but we've already discussed the short-sighted cultural factors that have so far prevented this.
(DIR) Post #ASD5gdzutdP2cfinia by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T18:16:22Z
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@mike I'd like to see search and a recommendation engine API of some sort. The engine would have to be _very_ carefully built though.
(DIR) Post #ASD5mAbJ6eWRBfqUTo by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T18:17:23Z
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@john I'm not sure what recommendations would get me that searches didn't. But I have no argument against it being tried so long as it's strictly opt-in.
(DIR) Post #ASD5uarfLFlqxZVvRw by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T18:18:53Z
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@mike You have strong interests and intent. A lot of people just don't, they use social media for light entertainment, and that's fine by me.
(DIR) Post #ASD5wOa9yiJfRiBWiG by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T18:19:19Z
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@john Fair point. Whatever I am, I'm not typical.
(DIR) Post #ASD6T6oT44lNtMTaZU by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T18:25:07Z
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@mike I'm thinking more of a "StumbleUpon for the fediverse", rather than a "silently alter your feed based on feedback you didn't even realise you were giving".
(DIR) Post #ASD6dKszb35uQzT9e4 by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T18:26:59Z
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@wolfteeth I mean, I'm biased here because I know how much artist rely on breakout hits to increase their viewership. Algorithms tend to amplify that.
(DIR) Post #ASD7FsqTmhBElIftXk by john@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T18:33:56Z
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@dannekrose @mike See, I've been here a while, and I don't know what they are, or how to opt in. This probably needs to built into Mastodon mainline to work.
(DIR) Post #ASDDU2agwoT8lXQLuy by mike@sauropods.win
2023-01-31T19:43:45Z
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@john @dannekrose Strong agreement on this. Nudge Theory and all that. People mostly only see what's in front of them. Me included.