Post AS8iWNPed2KCiC3VM8 by arclight@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by arclight@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AS8iUfVgNAACGC3p2G by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-26T21:25:30Z
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I was compelled to explain in a large training session that Excel and MathCAD are not, Not, NOT acceptable tools for performing QL-1 nuclear safety calculations.I absolutely hate that I have to keep explaining this to degreed engineers doing safety-critical work.
(DIR) Post #AS8iUgNDA8yuwD6ZTE by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-26T21:26:02Z
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I am going to die on this hill whether I want to or not.
(DIR) Post #AS8iUgymuR2Uokga2a by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-26T21:31:23Z
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This just makes me want to cry.Excel is suitable only for tasks less important than Girl Scout cookie sales tracking. Do not bet anything more valuable than a box of Thin Mints on Excel.
(DIR) Post #AS8iUha0g2oUgC6J3g by mhoye@mastodon.social
2023-01-28T00:41:55Z
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@arclight Excel is not a spreadsheet. Excel is a full-featured virtual machine running a smalltalk-inspired REPL whose display layer happens to resemble a spreadsheet.Something like a third of the world’s money goes through Excel every single day, and the reason you don’t think Excel is a Real Programming Language is because if we admitted that, we’d have to admit that most of the most important software in the world was written by underpaid women in pink collar jobs, and we can’t have that.
(DIR) Post #AS8iUi6cimtwJLMLtQ by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-28T03:22:49Z
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@mhoye I think we're on the same page here. Excel is the world's most popular functional programming system. The problem is that it's sold and viewed as an easy-to-use tool for "non-programmers". The problem is that it is in fact a programming system, spreadsheets are software, and should be treated with the same rigorous review process as software written in traditional languages. Hiding the programming aspect of the system has a secondary effect of making them virtually impossible to verify.
(DIR) Post #AS8iUinAAcveRHGKCO by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-26T21:35:00Z
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People advocating that Excel, MathCAD, etc. are suitable are required to show difference listings between two versions of a worksheet and demonstrate they can perform a code review of a hundred page worksheet. I've done V&V on >100 page MathCAD worksheets so I know about that which I speak.
(DIR) Post #AS8iUkP8AwtTRK2A1A by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-26T21:45:01Z
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MathCAD has two very interesting failure modes - off-by-pixel errors (code execution order depends on typographical position on a page) and keming errors (rendering of unary minus is indistinguishable from fraction solidus leading to negation operator visually disappearing)
(DIR) Post #AS8iUlu0bdBg5NUKmm by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-26T21:50:20Z
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I have been on the losing end of arguments over whether a 100+ page MathCAD worksheet was considered "Software" (which requires QA) or a "one-time-use program" (which does not) when the "one-time-use" MathCAD was turned over to a client as a reusable tool.I don't work there anymore.
(DIR) Post #AS8iUmJX4jbVMXQiZM by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-28T03:30:50Z
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@mhoye I can't really speak to the pink collar aspect; I'll have to forward that to my wife who is the Excel expert in the family ;)
(DIR) Post #AS8iWMuoThefAXcsHg by mhoye@mastodon.social
2023-01-28T04:19:47Z
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@arclight my guy, you just referred to excel as a child’s toy only suitable for tasks less important than girl guide cookie sales and then referred me to your wife as the family excel expert.Just tell her how little you think of her, don’t involve me in this.
(DIR) Post #AS8iWNPed2KCiC3VM8 by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-28T04:27:38Z
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@mhoye I think you're really misunderstanding what I'm saying and that we're probably in furious agreement.My wife works in emergency management and is regularly called on for complex Excel tasks. She is _literally_ the Excel expert in the household.It's not that I consider Excel a toy, I consider it a tool used far outside of its intended scope of use by people who are not treated as programmers, not given adequate training or tools for their work. That's a problem.
(DIR) Post #AS8ia16fVLQIgkuX8i by cdemwell@hachyderm.io
2023-01-28T16:25:07Z
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@arclight @mhoye The technical point you are making - that the lack of verification systems for Excel makes it unsuitable for applications where correctness is important - is not unreasonable and it's possible that it's true. The way you've talked about this though uses language that resonates with misogyny. If you don't want that, it's worth debugging what you have internalized that you can identify and unlearn. If you think it would be helpful, I can point out some of the cues I see here.
(DIR) Post #AS8ia1WXx87hz11CTY by arclight@mastodon.social
2023-01-28T17:14:41Z
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@cdemwell @mhoye I understand that; I've chosen my words carefully and am open to clarification and questions. However, I'm not interested in arguing over words I haven't said, positions I don't hold, or hair-splitting over terminology or tone. Sorry/thanks.
(DIR) Post #AS92STlT4KjSKvg4NU by byterhymer@mastodon.social
2023-01-29T08:02:42Z
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@mhoye I am biased, insomuch as I was a minor when I was first using Excel at version 1.0.My dad used to have me write spreadsheets for his business. Unpaid of course (or risk being beaten & not having a roof over my head).So while I sympathize with the un(der)rpaid part: please don't emasculate me, I contended with enough of that BS.Excel has *limits*. 1,048,576 rows by 16,384 columnsMaximum file size for uploading to a document library: 50 (MB) default. 2 (GB) maximum@arclight
(DIR) Post #AS92SWIVeSLoBz9U9o by byterhymer@mastodon.social
2023-01-29T08:05:03Z
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@mhoye Contrast that with say, a "real" database.I'll be kind & use SQLite: "The largest possible setting for SQLITE_MAX_PAGE_COUNT is 4294967294. When used with the maximum page size of 65536, this gives a maximum SQLite database size of about 281 terabytes."So, no Excel is not suitable for "serious" work.A lot of things are done in Excel.Yet if you have more rigorous CS issues, please provide code with COMPLETE source.That disqualifies basically EVERYTHING from M$, period.@arclight
(DIR) Post #AS92YGLfrWPYStN2W0 by JdeBP@mastodonapp.uk
2023-01-28T18:47:18Z
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@mhoye @arclightA major problem with #Excel isn't anything to do with sex or age.It's to do with domain applicability. "Everything is a nail."The number of times that I've seen people do database work laboriously in Excel when _there's a database tool right there in Microsoft Office_ is depressing. I haven't yet personally seen someone do word processing or mail merge in Excel, but I would not be at all surprised by it.Too often the problem is that of using only one tool everywhere.
(DIR) Post #AS92YGrDyDeG2k8Egy by Rustymarble@home.social
2023-01-29T18:52:40Z
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@JdeBP I had a boss in Human Resources who wrote entire Memos and letters in excel. They used the page break preview and never resized the cells, just worked within the page size. It was incredibly frustrating how hard they worked to NOT use the correct tools available to them.
(DIR) Post #AS98EDDgNwfuh6SH4a by publius@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-01-29T20:26:11Z
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@JdeBP @mhoye @arclight I know people who make maps, and develop spacecraft, in Excel. It's mind-boggling.