Post AS7T3onO337alm7XXM by T2oofei8ht@mastodon.lol
(DIR) More posts by T2oofei8ht@mastodon.lol
(DIR) Post #ARN2B718XE4qIqP0uu by jeff@newsie.social
2023-01-06T14:33:10Z
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I have become anecdotally aware of several (smaller) mastodon instances that are considering shutting down because they cannot afford their server bills.If you are a #mastodonadmin of an instance that is 1000+ users and considering shutting down please reach out to me.We may be willing to take over your instance and save your users if you are compliant with the Mastodon Server Covenenant (https://joinmastodon.org/covenant)
(DIR) Post #ARN2GiZAMATkCrzadM by stux@mstdn.social
2023-01-06T15:33:11Z
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@jeff Good job Jeff! ❤️ I did the same until it was also for me a bit too much to handle at some point :blobcatgiggle: Luckily moderation teams do sucha great job! 💪 Keeping stuff running is the easy part :blobcatgiggle:
(DIR) Post #ARNHtzqNYEe2OlEOEy by Mower@know.me.uk
2023-01-06T18:28:21Z
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@stux @jeff I suppose that's the thing. It's needs a lot of helpers like Jeff? Sharing the load?
(DIR) Post #ARNWxMo87yapngFDSy by kinyutaka@masto.ai
2023-01-06T21:15:02Z
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@jeff I think that admins need to maintain transparency with their users, and if an instance is in danger of shutting down, users should be given time to jump to a different instance.
(DIR) Post #ARNWxNCEgLsL0RWT2W by jeff@newsie.social
2023-01-06T21:15:56Z
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@kinyutaka They should! They often don't.
(DIR) Post #ARRyeqYAYbDfxlm9w0 by justinz@social.opendesktop.org
2023-01-09T00:46:19Z
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@stux @jeff It's interesting, I saw this coming when the significant surges of users decided they wanted their own instance but had no idea it was going to cost money. I imagine in time there will mostly only be small and large instances. Mid-sized ones will be absorbed or vanish.
(DIR) Post #ARjTs8Qwe5AcMSZuRk by Wabu@mastodon.social
2023-01-06T16:25:41Z
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@jeff okay this is probably a unpopular opinion but fuck it: I wouldn't mind to see ads if this means it would help to run the server. Mastodon should implement ads with a easy opt in/opt out model (for the users) that server admins can choose to use on their instance. And maybe a easy one click donation implementation in the official app over the app store. Like I heard from a friend who works on apps: "With every additional click you will loose people that are willing to pay."
(DIR) Post #ARjTs91SSKNSBhf4MK by fauzruk@mastodon.top
2023-01-06T17:18:33Z
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@Wabu @jeff Technically speaking, wouldn't it be possible to fork the mastodon server to insert ad spot as regular message, the same way Twitter does it?Something with an #ads tag to let the user know what they are looking at.The mastodon clients would simply display it.This would be a "read only" change so it wouldn't require a protocol change.
(DIR) Post #ARjTs9VEfcCFg3aqm0 by jeff@newsie.social
2023-01-06T17:20:02Z
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@fauzruk @Wabu Possible but I strongly prefer to not fork Mastodon again. We did it as a test a few years ago.
(DIR) Post #ARjTs9thCflKtv2Nto by fauzruk@mastodon.top
2023-01-06T17:32:18Z
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@jeff @Wabu What is the stance of Mastodon on #ads exactly? I was thinking fork because it might be something they are totally against.I think server admins should have the #option as long as it is done in a #GDPR compliant way (i.e. targeted ads, involving third parties, etc).
(DIR) Post #ARjTsAPxGjZCVy89BI by yuki2501@hackers.town
2023-01-06T18:50:54Z
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@fauzruk @jeff @Wabu Most of the communities here are against ads. Furthermore, there moment you start serving ads, adtech stuff will start spreading and that has lots of privacy implications, GDPR headaches, etc.Crowdfunding is the simplest way to solve this.
(DIR) Post #AS5fHicYc2RMo6Wv44 by thespoonless@epicure.social
2023-01-28T04:17:42Z
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@justinz @stux @jeff This is a good thing IMO. From where I'm sitting (poor user in a bad country) the mid-size servers are the ones that have been most easily weaponized. After the single-server-used-by-a-single-asshole-to-terrorize-others of course.The big servers, if they get weaponized, will be defederated, so there's more of a barrier to bad behaviour, and tolerance of it, than anywhere else.
(DIR) Post #AS7P9kn7RvPsGsZPUG by himbothyswaggins@hachyderm.io
2023-01-06T21:57:54Z
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@kinyutaka @rolenthedeep @jeff fair enough. I suppose some sort of membership model similar to twitter blue without the nonsense of search priority.
(DIR) Post #AS7P9lMZK7ly2p9ik4 by himbothyswaggins@hachyderm.io
2023-01-06T22:00:43Z
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@kinyutaka @rolenthedeep @jeff basically imagining something like the way the Ghost blogging software handles donations and memberships. But yeah I'll go back on that paid registration idea, that seems like a poor choice. But some fun cosmetic perks would be cool.
(DIR) Post #AS7P9lpzYjJBW4vDbU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T00:26:20Z
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@himbothyswaggins> that paid registration idea... seems like a poor choice.There's no silver bullet revenue model that will work for every instance. But I know of at least one that charges a regular membership fee, which is now covering their hosting costs. Although the admin and mods are still volunteers. https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/109754843774430927@kinyutaka @rolenthedeep @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7Q1VZuEAG0j51Q80 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T00:35:56Z
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One possible solution is hosting services like masto.host, where pricing is much more predictable for people or groups wanting their own instance. If more of these are set up as the 'verse grows, and we ensure easy migration between them ("like-in not lock-in"), this will help to prevent them becoming pseudo-centralized platforms.@himbothyswaggins@kinyutaka @rolenthedeep @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7QEvUhBSRurqz0W8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T00:38:31Z
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@himbothyswagginsAs a bonus, with a hosting service, the technical stress is outsourced to specialists, allowing the people running the instance to focus on community management (moderation, funding etc). @kinyutaka @rolenthedeep @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7T3o68dqWibdt07s by yoohooair@universeodon.com
2023-01-06T16:40:11Z
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@Wabu @jeff prefer no ads but if needed,how aboutYES: * other #MastodonInstances that can afford to run ads * #Mastodon-supporting, #proEarth, #proScience #nonprofits and #universities* #jobAds for #scientists #programmers #educators #artists* #recycling #sustainability efforts* #animalRescues * #LocalGovernment #StateGovernment #publicSafety #parksAndRec #historicPreservatione.g. #NationalGeographic #Smithsonian NO:* diets* Schemes (get rich quick)* Overpriced luxury goods
(DIR) Post #AS7T3onO337alm7XXM by T2oofei8ht@mastodon.lol
2023-01-07T02:46:13Z
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@yoohooair @Wabu @jeff @nathan #admin😠 NO ADS ON MASTODON 😨✊️ NO ADS ON MASTODON 😨But read this thread...
(DIR) Post #AS7T3pNBtvlGYos8LQ by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-07T03:07:03Z
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@T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff Mastodon will never have ads so you can forget that idea and any admins trying to push ads from their instance will be swiftly defederated. It doesn't take a lot of money to run a small Mastodon server and users will be happy to support their server especially because there aren't any ads or tracking.
(DIR) Post #AS7T3poqF7sZwZoDRY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T01:10:06Z
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I'm generally against ads as a revenue model, especially for media because of the ways advertisers can influence editorial/ moderation choices. Totally opposed to surveillance advertising in all its forms, of course.But..@nathan> admins trying to push ads from their instance will be swiftly defederatedOnly if they're pushing ads out to other instances. What if they just display contextual ads to accounts on their instance?@T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7TcYD1hxuDSlfuue by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-29T01:16:23Z
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@strypey @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff It goes completely against the ethos of Mastodon so if any admins do try it they're gonna have a bad time. We don't want that normalized here.
(DIR) Post #AS7WQzKlKhB3ybTIy8 by britishtechguru@techhub.social
2023-01-06T20:31:44Z
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@jeff What is needed bar a computer a domain name and ab internet connection to run Mastodon instances?
(DIR) Post #AS7WR020jtlw8jhqNc by jeff@newsie.social
2023-01-06T21:12:12Z
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@britishtechguru It's more than that. Large mastodon instances are hungry and thirsty and take some skill to setup and keep running and fast.Newsie is on 9 servers, not including email.
(DIR) Post #AS7WR0jc7meOJy6fLM by britishtechguru@techhub.social
2023-01-06T23:34:35Z
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@jeff I'd love to run my own instance with me as the only user.
(DIR) Post #AS7WR1KTui8oAJM6oC by darnell@one.darnell.one
2023-01-07T02:22:36Z
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@britishtechguru @jeff That is what I am doing. My costs for running a solo instance for me is about $35/month, although I had to upgrade due to running out of space (reducing content retention helped relieve pressure on the server).
(DIR) Post #AS7WR1tZoEDJv9m8Vk by britishtechguru@techhub.social
2023-01-07T13:18:03Z
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@darnell @jeff I already have webspace with a domain. I'd forgotten about that. I've not logged in for several years though. What I was thinking of was putting something like a Raspberry Pi on the network here at home then just getting a domain name to point at it somehow. As I have likely got a virtual IP address, that might be challenging.
(DIR) Post #AS7WR2Tjdn8ZjIh0s4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T01:47:25Z
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@britishtechguru> getting a domain name to point at it somehow.Dynamic DNS is good for this, from what I've read:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_DNSSelf-hosting distros like LibreServer (@bob) and @yunohost make use of it to enable home-based servers to work. @darnell @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7WYshLt6nniGnkZM by mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io
2023-01-06T22:29:10Z
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@jeff The replies to this post are interesting. "Fear of capitalism" often gets expressed as "fear of commerce." Paying for things doesn't mean capitalism. Paying for things preceded capitalism by at least 7,000 years, maybe 20,000.And charging for stuff doesn't need to have a profit motive. You charge your friends for stuff every time you split the dinner bill. 🤔 And I hope none of y'all are marking that up!Asking users for donations is pure and holy? But asking for subscriptions is dirty?
(DIR) Post #AS7XRQS2bw5229eHFA by MarkRNay@ravenation.club
2023-01-06T23:13:52Z
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@mekkaokereke @jeff sorry. Capitalism was not created. It exists because of human nature. Period. It has permutations depending upon the governmental rules in different places but it is a reflection of how humans function. Different societies place different limits on how commerce is conducted but the foundation is human nature.
(DIR) Post #AS7XRR3cME8buhEHoW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T01:59:11Z
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@MarkRNay> Capitalism was not created.I agree. It emerged as an interference pattern between aristocracy, mercantilism, and European colonisation, then got supercharged by industrialisation. David Graeber wrote about this history in Debt, and Douglas Rushkoff goes into detail on it in Life Inc.> It exists because of human nature.Depends on your definition. If "capitalism" = commerce, then yes. But @mekkaokereke pointed to another, more specific definition used by its critics.@jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7YZa4ioU7Y9WC4pM by britishtechguru@techhub.social
2023-01-29T02:11:37Z
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@strypey @bob @yunohost @darnell @jeff That's useful information. I think somewhere in the dusty recesses of my mind I probably once had that information. I knew it was possible.
(DIR) Post #AS7fNNSKbYTNDdMgnQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T03:28:06Z
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Please expand on how contextual ads, shown only to users who opt-in to seeing them by joining an ad-funded instance, go...@nathan> completely against the ethos of MastodonI agree it's not ideal, and it seems unlikely to become a common funding model (can expand on why if you're interested). But is it really such a terrible thing if it works for a few instances, and the people who would rather see ads than pay money?@T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7fhNEN9S5qJQN3C4 by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-29T03:31:40Z
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@strypey @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7meJdgkRiBz1hX2e by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T04:49:32Z
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@nathanOK, maybe it does conflict with the ethos of Mastodon. Although the mention of algorithms suggests the real target is surveillance advertising and the accompanying timeline manipulation, not opt-in contextual ads. Worth pointing out too that John Mastodon only gets to defined the ethos of the Mastodon project, not the whole fediverse. That's up to all of us to hash out and find rough consensus.@T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS7vsK0F5jqCkl0Ipk by the_Effekt@universeodon.com
2023-01-29T06:32:49Z
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@strypey @nathan @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff Instead of ads scattered throughout instances and becoming a mess, why not just have an instance totally devoted to ads? That way people can visit as needed without polluting their core instances?Keep it separate, but make it available. Admins can create accounts there and post ads that suit them. Then just link to them.It is less optimal than having ads on a regular instance, but you are forcing people to see them. That would cause a big stir on its own.
(DIR) Post #AS8GOdsyhXWSliIMM4 by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-29T06:53:35Z
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@the_Effekt @strypey @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff That's pretty convoluted and Mastodon isn't even needed for that, you could point users to a curated GitHub Pages site and it's basically the same thing. It's not going to make admins any money either way though.Mastodon doesn't need ads. People will happily support their instance. It's a non-issue.
(DIR) Post #AS8GOeoPG1SZdpADrs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T10:22:57Z
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@nathan>People will happily support their instance. In some cases, but not all. For example you're presuming everyone has spare money to make regular donations to the net services they use. The original business model of the net was for ISPs to supply hosting. But it turned out many people couldn't afford the net if the costs of hosting were included, so they were unbundled, and the ad-funded web emerged as a direct consequence. @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS8GzEK0i6kgCKNyMq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-29T10:29:34Z
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@the_Effekt> ads scattered throughout instances and becoming a messWhat's messy about seeing the odd ad related to the topic of the post you're reading? > why not just have an instance totally devoted to ads?Who organises and pays for it? Why not link directly to company websites instead of adding an ad instance between them? > It is less optimal than having ads on a regular instance, but you are forcing people to see themHow?@nathan @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff
(DIR) Post #AS8Jj2ASQmfDjQt088 by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-29T10:59:50Z
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@strypey @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu @jeff I'm speaking as someone who has run a Mastodon instance entirely funded by the community for the last 2 years which is currently bringing in $2,500/month in donations. Less than 1% of my users financially support the site and we have a healthy buffer to ensure the site stays online. A handful of people donating a couple of bucks every month easily covers the hosting costs of a small to medium size instance. Speaking from experience.
(DIR) Post #AS8iIwBKYsugUXwnse by CodexArcanum@hachyderm.io
2023-01-29T15:35:26Z
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@strypey @nathan I think the current state of the internet, and the history you just presented, should give pause to anyone living in the US. Our system doesn't work, and it hasn't been for a long time.Internet is almost always bundled now, often with streaming apps that simulate cable TV, or just with cable TV. Its expensive. And the people who couldn't afford it were preditorily monetized until the ISPs realized they could preditorily monetize EVERYONE to make even more profit.
(DIR) Post #AS8iIzLMo1iwIXfMRM by CodexArcanum@hachyderm.io
2023-01-29T15:35:26Z
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@strypey @nathan The internet is a utility or public service, like water and electricity and garbage pickup, and it should be regulated as such. In addition, all utilities and services should be under municipal or regional public control, subsidized by federal taxes, and distributed socially to everyone.Our current "market" system is just an elaborate con game to disguise how we exploit people and threaten them with slow death by exposure and hunger for not complying.
(DIR) Post #AS9bqc5xFFKXWDVHqC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-30T01:57:53Z
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@nathan> I'm speaking as someone who has run a Mastodon instance entirely funded by the communityThat's great. Long may it continue. But based on the OP by @jeff, it seems this is not a universal experience. As I said in my initial post in this thread, I'm no fan of ad-based funding models, and clearly nobody in this discussion thinks they're desirable. But the question here is, under what conditions might they be tolerable?@the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu
(DIR) Post #AS9dYEjNZbZbkgJENk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-30T02:17:06Z
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Another question that might be worth asking is how we - the broader fediverse community - could support struggling instances? Eg could we set up a funding pool that instances can contribute to when they have a healthy surplus? Who could be trusted (and willing) to administrate it, and what would the criteria be for getting a grant?@nathan@jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu
(DIR) Post #AS9ekvsN5RQQzd8IqG by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-30T02:30:14Z
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@strypey @jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu The reality is it doesn't cost a lot to run a small server (I paid $6/month for a long time) but advertising will earn you pennies. It's not a viable solution even if it was tolerable.Most public instances are community funded and if admins ask their community for support they will show up.
(DIR) Post #ASABozPlAZVlc5IBhg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-30T08:41:02Z
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@nathan> doesn't cost a lot to run a small server... $6/monthOther posts in this thread say their costs are much higher.> advertising will earn you penniesThis assumption is based on surveillance advertising, where the intermediaries make more money out of each ad sold than the media outlet displaying it. In contrast, many podcasters cover their hosting costs by selling a couple of ad spots per episode.@jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu
(DIR) Post #ASACLaWiiqvDyv5mdc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-30T08:46:48Z
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@nathanBut as I said, all of this is beside the point. Persuading me that funding stuff via ads isn't what we want is like convincing a fish not to ride a bicycle.I joined this thread to explore your claim that any instance who found a way to cover their costs via advertising would be defederated en masse. Given our discussion in this thread, do you still think that? @jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu
(DIR) Post #ASAEruhpQqclk0pVXU by EndlessMason@mastodon.lol
2023-01-30T09:15:09Z
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@strypey @nathan @jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu this sounds like the start of a sponsored post about linode
(DIR) Post #ASAS22rzEUNtMQk6Pg by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-30T11:42:04Z
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@strypey @jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu I can't do anything about people deciding to use AWS and paying hundreds in egress fees. Inexperienced people shouldn't be running public instances anyway. My opinion hasn't changed at all.
(DIR) Post #ASBM6TCKsjZNbjwnJ2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-30T22:09:59Z
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Ae, AWS is awful.@nathan> Inexperienced people shouldn't be running public instances anyway. I'd go further and suggest that public instances ought to be the exception, and the most sensible default for new accounts on new instances (regardless of software) is either invite-only (like Snikket in the XMPP world), or by-request. This reduces the likelihood of accounts being set up for spam and other abuse on instances with inexperienced mods.@jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu
(DIR) Post #ASBMQZKZn0VqQ7Ny8e by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-30T22:14:38Z
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@nathan> My opinion hasn't changed at all.So if an instance is showing ads only to people using it, how would the admins of other instances know, and would would it bother them? As long as the instance isn't disabling account portability features, but I think that's grounds for mass defederation with or without ads.@jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu
(DIR) Post #ASBMrxZrkVfHRFb9iC by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-30T22:19:37Z
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@nathanImagine a situation where a large sports club runs an instance for its members, and promotes local businesses there as part of a sponsorship deal (logos on team uniforms etc). Again, such ads would only be visible to club members using the instance, and perhaps visitors to the public-facing pages on the web, not to anyone interacting from other instances. Would the 'verse defederate from such an instance, and if so, why?@jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu
(DIR) Post #ASBNEXGnj4GoVXRhMe by jeff@newsie.social
2023-01-30T22:23:36Z
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@strypey @nathan @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu PerfectionAnd some would defederate simply "because ads" or "because capitalism" or because WHATEVER"That's ok.
(DIR) Post #ASBOSM8A2Rbvy4Yg3k by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-30T22:35:33Z
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@strypey @jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu A large large sports club doesn't need to do that. It's not a "we need to do this to keep the site online" situation. That's just trying to profit from your community for your own gain.
(DIR) Post #ASBS1huBNAzRUxZIdk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-01-30T23:17:19Z
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@nathan> A large large sports club doesn't need to do thatGranted, but I'm still curious about how you think admins of other instances would respond to that and why. @jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu
(DIR) Post #ASBSt2t85a6pvLVecq by nathan@mastodon.lol
2023-01-30T23:26:50Z
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@strypey @jeff @the_Effekt @T2oofei8ht @yoohooair @Wabu Negatively. People are very protective of Mastodon and I've seen over the years how many admins and users behave and respond to things which may negatively impact the Mastodon ecosystem and community.