Post AS4OZWCZdGfV7jJn2e by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
(DIR) More posts by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
(DIR) Post #AS4OZRtddj93lqQbyK by ianbetteridge@mastodon.me.uk
2023-01-27T13:00:04Z
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At times of remembrance of the victims of the Holocaust, you are likely to see Martin Niemoller's poem quite a bit. You know: "First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a communist." Before you do so, I would urge you to think a bit. This thread is about why.
(DIR) Post #AS4OZSPBkQNlLhBo9I by ianbetteridge@mastodon.me.uk
2023-01-27T13:03:41Z
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First, there is Niemoller himself. He was a conservative Lutheran, and like many of that ilk he opposed the Weimar republic.In fact, in his 1933 biography, he praised Hitler's accession to power as a "great revival" of Germany. Again like many conservative Lutherans, he was also an anti-semite. While he opposed "Aryan paragraphs" which legally barred Jews from certain offices, he did so only for Jews who had converted to Christianity, not for those who remained followers of Judaism.
(DIR) Post #AS4OZSxZgZt74LHGkK by ianbetteridge@mastodon.me.uk
2023-01-27T13:05:07Z
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He only gradually abandoned anti-semitism. Even in 1935, he was still giving sermons which blamed the oppression of Jews on their refusal to become Christians.
(DIR) Post #AS4OZUG2rOFz5uvXAu by ianbetteridge@mastodon.me.uk
2023-01-27T13:07:18Z
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Then there is the poem itself. First, it's not accurate: The Nazis were explicit about what they intended to do to Jews as early as the 1920s, and the first law they passed barred Jews *and* their political opponents from public office. They didn't come for the Communists first: they came for Jews and those who could oppose them. By the end of 1933, if you were Jewish, you were barred from the civil service, the legal profession and from journalism.
(DIR) Post #AS4OZUmIvS3qhy1ISO by ianbetteridge@mastodon.me.uk
2023-01-27T13:11:03Z
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This is where it gets really uncomfortable. By putting things in an order (first communists, which was ignored, then trade unionists, then Jews), Niemoller is implying that *Jews* ignored what the Nazis were doing to communists and trade unionists. The poem - perhaps unintentionally - divides groups and blames Jews for ignoring what happened to trade unionists and communists. That, alas, is I think, a legacy of Niemoller's antisemitism and the belief he clung to that it was the Jews fault.
(DIR) Post #AS4OZVH94mjOFcRvWq by ianbetteridge@mastodon.me.uk
2023-01-27T13:13:17Z
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The sentiment that ultimately no one is safe in a Nazi-led country is better expressed by Peggy Seeger in "Song of choice":"The weeds are all around us and they're growingIt will soon be too late for the knifeIf you leave them on the wind that around the world is blowingYou may pay for your silence with your life."Read the whole thing. She put it better than I ever can. https://war-poetry.livejournal.com/1092662.html
(DIR) Post #AS4OZVj9Of8HeTYIBE by ianbetteridge@mastodon.me.uk
2023-01-27T13:14:34Z
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Actually, I can add one way of putting it which Peggy didn't: always remember, it's never too early to punch Nazis.
(DIR) Post #AS4OZWCZdGfV7jJn2e by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-27T13:35:43.762560Z
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@ianbetteridge @ianbetteridge So long as they are genuine neo-Nazis that would do worse than punch to the people they hate, I agree with you. Not if they are simply, idk, anti-abortion protesters, or white people who don't like "positive" discrimination (for reasons of fairness, not white supremacy).As for the poems, idk why but the second one seems to have less force than the first one. Probably just because I'm more used to the first one, though.
(DIR) Post #AS5DQQOuvTKyBkVrhw by sasha92@c.im
2023-01-27T14:42:14Z
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@Hyolobrika @ianbetteridge 🙄
(DIR) Post #AS5DYfIXQGrUhwSUD2 by domenick@c.im
2023-01-27T21:10:04Z
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@Hyolobrika @ianbetteridge "...or white people who don't like "positive" discrimination (for reasons of fairness, not white supremacy)."The word you're looking for here is racism - "for reasons of racism."
(DIR) Post #AS5DYfonUKfMJzYFUW by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-27T23:07:03.384633Z
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@domenick @ianbetteridge @domenick @ianbetteridge I don't think not wanting employers, universities, etc to be required by law to be biased against you is "racist".
(DIR) Post #AS5JWD9tflrKa4d6iu by domenick@c.im
2023-01-27T23:20:21Z
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@Hyolobrika @ianbetteridge As a white person, the number of times I've worried about an institution having a bias against me is exactly zero.Could I have experienced bias? Don't know, don't care. Because I do know that I benefit from positive white guy bias every day and most non-white people in this country experience the opposite, so I'm happy to just live my life and not worry about the slight possibility of being treated more poorly because of my race.
(DIR) Post #AS5JWDl7RNdKRW2pk0 by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-28T00:13:50.656227Z
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@domenick @ianbetteridge @domenick @ianbetteridge >positive white guy biasLike what?And why not just campaign to remove that bias instead of defending anti-white bias?
(DIR) Post #AS5L3UOKiqF7XPoXp2 by domenick@c.im
2023-01-28T00:16:49Z
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@Hyolobrika @ianbetteridge there is, effectively, no anti-white bias, and if that's really something a white person worries about...well, that's an unfortunate luxury.
(DIR) Post #AS5L3VE5cPdw7w1sUi by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-28T00:31:04.050118Z
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@domenick @ianbetteridge @domenick @ianbetteridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_actionAlso you didn't answer my question.
(DIR) Post #AS6ZeOcqiQCEt13Zr6 by domenick@c.im
2023-01-28T04:47:44Z
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@Hyolobrika @ianbetteridge I answered it. If anti-white bias is a thing you're concerned about, I don't know what to tell you.
(DIR) Post #AS6ZePE4U1yEkSTIsC by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-28T14:49:19.218928Z
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@domenick @ianbetteridge @domenick @ianbetteridge I just gave you a page of examples of anti-white bias. Don't bullshit me.
(DIR) Post #AS6i0y9o5d7Z5ckNP6 by domenick@c.im
2023-01-28T14:54:50Z
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@Hyolobrika @ianbetteridge No, you shared a page about affirmative action and apparently believe that's an example of anti-white bias. I do not.
(DIR) Post #AS6i0yf0De4geNLI1o by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-28T16:23:03.081608Z
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@domenick @ianbetteridge @domenick @ianbetteridge Legally mandated favouritism of particular groups is not bias? I think you are acting in bad faith here.