Post ARwMAY6Bgj4eavcM3E by icedquinn@blob.cat
(DIR) More posts by icedquinn@blob.cat
(DIR) Post #ARvvSo7q8tzskas9Oy by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T11:31:54.089563Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
what are market systems without capitalism called though :blobcatwaitwhat2:
(DIR) Post #ARwBhrAUi65pnXJOT2 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2023-01-23T14:32:02Z
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@icedquinn You've got your pick depending on which central tenet of capitalism you drop and what you replace it with.Using Wikipedia's definition, you can drop either private ownership of capital or you can drop the operation for profit.If the state owns the capital and operates it for profit, that's state capitalism. Though is that still capitalism?If there's a different system of public ownership, then it's some kind of socialism.You could also have a non-profit only system.
(DIR) Post #ARwBhra1BCVf4hFmFc by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T14:33:54.028414Z
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@urusan capitalism is such an overloaded word its hard to tell.
(DIR) Post #ARwCihNegbYVgZQusi by urusan@fosstodon.org
2023-01-23T14:35:49Z
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@icedquinn Either way, they're still just market systems. Only free-market capitalism concerns itself with the specifics of the market system.Well, I mean I guess there's other less popular market ideologies like mercantilism too, but you get the idea.
(DIR) Post #ARwCihq0zAEz6WhZ5M by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T14:45:16.316731Z
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@urusan agorists seem to say everything stays the same just without venture capitalists, or something.
(DIR) Post #ARwDJvN5dCTbnAv3Qm by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T14:52:00.324771Z
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@icedquinn market socialism / left market anarchism, for instance
(DIR) Post #ARwEHOJLg5EcdGWcz2 by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T14:54:24.844580Z
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@Hyolobrika @icedquinn They're indeed an option but they're not the only option. Market Commerce is better if you ask me.
(DIR) Post #ARwEHOt9WxsIQJHDn6 by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T15:02:45.796000Z
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@colinsmatt11 @icedquinn what is that?
(DIR) Post #ARwKEHpju7gzOmZwGG by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T15:07:08.663351Z
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@Hyolobrika @icedquinn Just people trading for what they need and want. No VC, capital and bs.
(DIR) Post #ARwKEIOpndlV9czxxo by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T16:09:25.088173Z
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@colinsmatt11 @icedquinn OK, but how would you make that a reality?
(DIR) Post #ARwMAXYrgcQ2va1k6y by AE2X7HNRuTgLtujRjs.satchlj@owlper.ch
2023-01-23T16:26:52.627374Z
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@Hyolobrika @icedquinn @colinsmatt11 not that i advocate this necessarily, just curious
(DIR) Post #ARwMAY6Bgj4eavcM3E by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:31:04.388118Z
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@satchlj @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 for me i take more of an anti-work stance that labor should be seen as a punishment that needs to be minimized.start by killing the protestant work ethic lie.
(DIR) Post #ARwMrP8AuGPHEVyxX6 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:38:54.268255Z
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@satchlj @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 under money magic the fed prints cash in some complicated staking and IOU scheme and then apparently gives it to banks who are then supposed to in turn loan it to prospects that would be profitable.if you kill the fed this model might be OK-ish. bankers would prove their worth by surviving but there needs to be the absolute understanding that help is not coming if they fail. per Graeber default is the only risk a lender takes and without risk they have nothing to force a survivor bias of banks that make good investments. Taleb mirrors this but from a different angle with the whole bob rubin trade / investors who don’t have skin in the game to balance the game out.there doesn’t appear to be evidence that bankers are actually any better at allocating capital than people who actually consume the services. c.f. NGOs who continuously fail to help anyone in Africa because the NGOs are stupid and routinely fail to understand things like “supply chains.”UBI is usually trashed for inflation but we already live under inflation. all that changes is instead of rich people print and spending the poor people print and spend. there’s been a handful of pilot tests on this and most of the poor people actually don’t do nothing forever. they tend to ‘recover’ and then get restless and find something to do.there are some mild and limited forms of usury i’m willing to entertain (this is simple interest of the i give you 10 and you owe me 15, or carried interest which is i give you 10 and you owe me 1 a month until you pay back the original 10.) but with the caveat the lenders still have to be faced with no bailing clauses.:blobcatpolicedonut: oh yeah and death penalty if someone tries to restart the federal reserve
(DIR) Post #ARwN0jHNMfCiKQjT7Y by AE2X7HNRuTgLtujRjs.satchlj@owlper.ch
2023-01-23T16:34:56.743521Z
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@icedquinn @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 😂😂there’s an argument for this, but i’m a big believer in the protestant work ethic lie myself i think work is vital to live a fulfilling life, and many people won’t work if they don’t have to, so we should live in a society where people have to work in order to survive at least a moderate amount, probably 40 hours is more than ideal
(DIR) Post #ARwN0jlrXJafqyzodk by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:40:31.713422Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@satchlj @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 there is no evidence that people will do nothing if someone isn't holding a gun to their head.there's growing anecdotes out of anthropology that tribes actually spend less time working because they just need to hunt, cook, and then the rest of the time fiddling about making random shit out of bones
(DIR) Post #ARwNAhiM2NzON46jyK by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:42:22.549745Z
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@satchlj @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 i do stuff *all the time* but people are largely unwilling to pay me for most of it. we have a lot of similar cases with foss developers who spend large amounts of time making public works and they get paid basically nothing even though PNG and JPG are foundations of the entire friggin internet.
(DIR) Post #ARwNdJdkckO26Vb75c by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:47:33.648895Z
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@Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 @satchlj the main problem with the protestant work ethic lie is that working hard does not actually equate to success and/or more money. if it did then it would be a workable system.being an effectual sociopath tends to get you more success and money than being the hardest worker in the room. sociopathy is extremely present among all the top earners. simulations also show that most of the time the top earners are only slightly above average and their wealth is largely just getting lucky. https://iceworks.cc/z/ckqmxwf9f0000lzuqsudtenz6.htmlbe slightly better than nothing and be a massive attention whore. that's the system we have. it's not a functional technocracy.if it *was* a functional technocracy one could be forgiven for having elites that suppress everyone. they would have actual cause to be in charge (being the best / most effective of a given field) but they generally do not and the top list of world wealth are evil men with basically no skills and connected families.
(DIR) Post #ARwNdVvCxfTsC7rDxw by whiteline@shitposter.club
2023-01-23T16:47:22.981134Z
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@icedquinn @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 @satchlj the protestant work ethic is that good (constructive) works are good, e.g. it's inherently good to plow a field that provides food for people or build furniture or whatever. non-constructive labor is not part of that and money is most certainly not part of it. this is such a part of our culture that we take it for granted but there are plenty of cultures where "doing good works" is not particularly valued and you're supposed to just be powerful and control lots of resources instead.what US people tends to call "the protestant work ethic" is nothing of the such
(DIR) Post #ARwNitI5VGe47W7hMO by AE2X7HNRuTgLtujRjs.satchlj@owlper.ch
2023-01-23T16:47:29.964181Z
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@icedquinn @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 oh I agree with you to a large degree that most people won’t choose to do nothingbut “people shouldn’t be forced to get a stupid job when they really want to make art for free” wasn’t your original point you talked about minimizing work, which I think is the wrong angle
(DIR) Post #ARwNitsbJVqtwlCrGy by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:48:30.525436Z
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@satchlj @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 people shouldn't be forced to do stupid work was always my point :blobcatdunno:
(DIR) Post #ARwNqoeOdhEY2tKwng by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:50:00.231291Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@satchlj @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 if there's 500 people churning butter society considers those people valid because they're sitting there slapping titty milk hours a day.someone invents a machine that does it for you and those 500 people are out of a job.what happened is that human specialization meant there is now butter with only fractional effort.what society *does* is say those 500 people are now worthless shits who deserve to starve to death because they are no longer serving a capitalist.
(DIR) Post #ARwO8Sylx3ZI2tHfRh by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:53:11.430859Z
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@Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 @satchlj the lie part of the protestant work ethic lie is that you are just told to work hard to make capitalists money. then they fire you the moment its convenient to do so. and people all propagate that you need to serve some abusive fucksticks to be a valid person who deserves to exist and be loved, which business owners aren't real keen on changing because an infinite supply of disposable goons is very suitable for their purposes.if i was a sociopath who ran a business i would kinda prefer if everyone under me believed they would go to hell if they didn't do everything i say always and things like "wanting to go to sleep" is just bad lazy union-satan behavior.if that work ethic *actually matched reality* i wouldn't call it a lie and i would be supportive of it.
(DIR) Post #ARwOJ2R6ygQUuSa33Q by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:55:06.134603Z
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@Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 @satchlj tl;dr its a nepotism driven society running on the backs of people who've been convinced its a technocracy and they are serfs because they deserve it.
(DIR) Post #ARwOQF86BNokIw7fyi by AE2X7HNRuTgLtujRjs.satchlj@owlper.ch
2023-01-23T16:54:40.750809Z
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@icedquinn @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 no disagreement with your butter churning analysis but my point is that productive work has inherent value, aside from money
(DIR) Post #ARwOQFbWPzLxmBtAq8 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2023-01-23T16:56:20.931063Z
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@satchlj @Hyolobrika @colinsmatt11 productive work is fine and anti-work people don't write it off but the goal is to minimize the work people need to do rather than glorify working hard.
(DIR) Post #ARwOYi3eVnCsLB52R6 by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T16:36:54.953661Z
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@satchlj @icedquinn @Hyolobrika There's a difference between work and job. People will work wheatear they like or not, job are a choice.
(DIR) Post #ARwOdtl0RRcO4aph4q by Jens_Rasmussen@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T16:58:53.399550Z
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@colinsmatt11 @satchlj @icedquinn @Hyolobrika From what I've heard it's "If you get a job that you love doing, you won't have to work at all". Although that seems utopian to say the least.
(DIR) Post #ARwUCupYwSQ9JCTsUi by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T16:12:52.397644Z
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@Hyolobrika @icedquinn First, abolish stock market.abolush banks.Encourage people to buy only stuff they require.But I believe I need a better plan than this.
(DIR) Post #ARwUCvsR3GJSYOpgbw by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T16:13:38.337006Z
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@Hyolobrika @icedquinn Capitalism was invented by the Dutch in 1600s, it's possible to remove it.
(DIR) Post #ARwUMY58NObTeNMF9M by AE2X7HNRuTgLtujRjs.satchlj@owlper.ch
2023-01-23T16:26:08.597808Z
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@Hyolobrika @icedquinn @colinsmatt11what about same system but no interest
(DIR) Post #ARwUMYUeqV1IvXIcvw by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T18:02:56.925240Z
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@satchlj @icedquinn @colinsmatt11 idk. not an economist
(DIR) Post #ARwdbkSzVlkDzZq6FM by pixelherodev@fosstodon.org
2023-01-23T14:18:38Z
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@icedquinn What, like a market but without the financial sector? Just people trading for mutual benefit?
(DIR) Post #ARwdblg90LrNkf07O4 by colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com
2023-01-23T14:33:08.663167Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pixelherodev @icedquinn That's called commerce