Post ARlHUX18mWRaWTPHsW by simsa04@gnusocial.net
(DIR) More posts by simsa04@gnusocial.net
(DIR) Post #ARiNobfJE8ywyqGscq by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-15T21:45:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
"Everyone should be able to program."#Poll #EvanPoll
(DIR) Post #ARiNoc9nOnMuVOXE92 by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:23:12Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Wow. A lot of ambivalent feelings here and in the comments. It's an intense topic!I am a strong yes, but my definition of "programming" might be different from yours. I think of programming as "creating programs", that is, creating novel computer behaviour.The main way we've done this, so far, is by writing code in a programming language. It's so engrained that most people think coding and programming are synonymous.But code is just one way to create programs.
(DIR) Post #ARiNocgPRXSM8XnGym by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:27:53Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
Writing code mostly sucks. It's a tedious process with a lot of busywork. Most people find it needlessly byzantine.I think computer scientists and software engineers self-select for people who understand and enjoy coding. We think it's great, so we don't try very hard to explore other modes for software construction.When we do, the visual programming or 3GL systems we create are limited and less powerful than our existing coding model, so we don't put much energy into them.
(DIR) Post #ARiNod6zqgivT0EVQ8 by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:31:38Z
5 likes, 3 repeats
I think everybody should be able to program the same way I think everybody should be able to attend a city council meeting. If there are systemic impediments to people exercising that power, that's a problem with the system, not the people.There's an engineered helplessness in most people's experience of technology. I'm a software developer, and about 75% of the time I feel like a total victim of the software I use. It sucks.People deserve to control their tech and share it with others.
(DIR) Post #ARiNoe2mNqwcMDGeUC by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:36:46Z
3 likes, 3 repeats
One really dark part of this thread is how many people respond that it would be terrible if everyone were forced to learn how to code.Like, what an awful comment on the state of software construction that is. Our idea of making software is so miserable that we imagine a horrible dystopia where people are *forced* under duress to use our shitty programming toolchains.
(DIR) Post #ARiOCoYovyexvNmOP2 by glent@aus.social
2023-01-15T21:53:04Z
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@evan This is "everyone should be able to service the car they drive" territory. A view strongly argued in some pubs until about 20 years ago.My view is that it is a useful skill, needed more in some careers than others. If it's complicated then hire a professional. Just like cars.
(DIR) Post #ARiOCpF0P8P62DW59k by theblazehen@hachyderm.io
2023-01-16T15:05:32Z
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@glent @evan Agree. Not everyone needs to know how to service their own car, however they _do_ all need to know how to _drive_ their car
(DIR) Post #ARiOCplcRsUXfMm7zU by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:38:51Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@theblazehen @glent what if we invert that and say that cars should be simple enough that the average person can service their own?
(DIR) Post #ARiOD2nryp1466vbns by lindsey@witchhat.house
2023-01-15T21:53:18Z
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@evan I think computational thinking is a bit different than programming and arguably more important. I also feel like an understanding of privacy and how the modern internet uses and abuses information is much more important.
(DIR) Post #ARiOD3P5kQn3xYLKoy by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:39:57Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@lindsey I think that having the agency to control and modify your experience is important, too.
(DIR) Post #ARiOE5Je7kSiBCHtDc by garbageman@mastodon.online
2023-01-15T21:54:21Z
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@evan That is so depressing
(DIR) Post #ARiOE5kaVa0rWktPDE by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T03:00:22Z
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@garbageman why?
(DIR) Post #ARiOE6FQeugP4PK2Hg by garbageman@mastodon.online
2023-01-16T14:53:55Z
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@evan The thought that everybody has to align themselves to the machine. It's dehumanising. Most people will never be more than users/consumers anyway and personally I think it's good if we have (lots of) people around who don't see everything in computer terms...
(DIR) Post #ARiOE6kGoFLwc3kfM8 by garbageman@mastodon.online
2023-01-16T14:57:44Z
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@evan Don't get me wrong, basic computer skills are a necessity these days but I see that as a long way off from "everybody has to know how to program"
(DIR) Post #ARiOE781NwLrnirdNQ by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T15:01:12Z
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@garbageman check the question again!
(DIR) Post #ARiOE7glIm8nXT7NWi by garbageman@mastodon.online
2023-01-16T15:53:55Z
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@evan You mean should be able to vs has to know how to? Different tone, but basically boils down to the same thing.
(DIR) Post #ARiOE8D1Mpwf9WD8oC by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:40:24Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@garbageman how about, computers should be made so that everyone can program them?
(DIR) Post #ARiOILDkvocAfNYugq by david@snailedit.social
2023-01-15T23:14:00Z
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@evan As a one-liner, it's a bit like saying "everyone should be able to draft a contract". Basic familiarity is a useful life skill but it's important to know when to say "I'm out of my depth, let's hire a professional".If the question was "Everyone should be given the opportunity to learn to program", my answer would be very different.
(DIR) Post #ARiOILfPH0jU38Uzmy by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:46:35Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@david how about, contract law should be simple enough that anyone should be able to make and read a contract?I think the movement toward plain language in government and legal systems is a step in this direction.
(DIR) Post #ARiOhpRBiwARcZzwzA by lakelady@mstdn.social
2023-01-15T22:56:58Z
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@evan it's like saying everyone should be able to sing, or paint, or cook. Yes most can learn at least a rudimentary level but that doesn't mean their efforts will be valuable to anyone else in the world beyond themselves, and even that can be questionable for some folks.
(DIR) Post #ARiOhpwjpdP9CQl9A8 by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T22:43:28Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@lakelady why does it have to be valuable to anyone else?Everyone should be able to cook. Everyone should be able to sing.I'm not sure about painting per se, but everyone should be able to draw.
(DIR) Post #ARiPVOQ2S6AeIu5vKi by iceloops@lizards.live
2023-01-16T23:02:35Z
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@evan I say if they can't program atleast know some terminal/command line commands so they can fix their computer than maybe can understand some code. I know what sudo has to do something with root
(DIR) Post #ARiPmXDiyww8WXVbDk by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2023-01-16T23:05:09.219879Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@evan I don't think we have to imagine much to see people being forced to use shitty programming toolchains. Heck I think most of us have been there.
(DIR) Post #ARiRrRefIlC2cRZxmS by phire@phire.place
2023-01-16T18:19:08Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@evan “everyone should be able to” is different than “everyone should know how to”, imo. Everyone should be able to avail themselves of the resources and community to learn how to program, if they want to. Everyone should not need to know how to program, no.
(DIR) Post #ARiSE20MpkPNjAV3ya by simsa04@gnusocial.net
2023-01-16T23:13:31Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Your equation is misguided. "Freedom", "autonomy", and "responsibility" don't mean that people should become unpaid semi-employees of software companies that already abuse the employees they have. Programs are products, not commons goods; I am a customer, you give me the product. I pay for it and if your product sucks, I drop it and turn to the next vendor. Or do you expect everybody to able to grow their own food as well?
(DIR) Post #ARiSE2d0W5Jhf0ZvCi by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T23:18:04Z
5 likes, 0 repeats
@simsa04 I do think everyone should be able to grow their own food, at least in part.
(DIR) Post #ARiT0fiaU4EynPNRzM by lnxw37a2@pleroma.soykaf.com
2023-01-16T23:41:48.972304Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@simsa04 @evan > I am a customer, you give me the product. I pay for it and if your product sucks, I drop it and turn to the next vendor.The problem with this is that you may have new needs that no software company anticipated, but if you have a little programming skill (and even using VBA in an office program qualifies), you may be able to bend what they produced to make it meet your needs better. Until a few years back, employees of $EMPLOYER often wrote their own Excel macros and Access database applications to make their jobs easier. It wasn't us tech peeps that wrote or maintained their custom programs. It was the employees themselves. People *should* have that kind of ability ... and the software they use should grant it to them. It isn't that they have to use it, but it should be available if they want to use it. And we shouldn't make it seem so esoteric that they don't believe they can learn.
(DIR) Post #ARiXJyPTc1LA5Othbs by simsa04@gnusocial.net
2023-01-17T00:04:42Z
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To me it sound a little bit as if you are generalizing from a very small and privileged percentage of the population. As you say, it has been employees of $EMPLOYER who wrote their specifications, i.e., trained programmers. For them such customizations and the ability to customize may be reasonable. But when a layperson uses an office suite or a browser, he doesn't need such skills. Even worse: If a layperson needs to be able to program in order for him to use an office suite or a browser, then that's not just bad product design, not just a waste of precious lifetime, but the willful abandonment of a defining feature of civilised society: the division of labour. What @evan tacitly proposes is thus some kind of neo-Amish self-sufficiency. Most of such endeavours don't work and lead to impoverished and destitute forms of existence. (There is a reason why most alternative communes working their own land went out of business 20 years ago.)
(DIR) Post #ARiXJytFpJ9xZkpU1Y by lnxw37a2@pleroma.soykaf.com
2023-01-17T00:30:07.196609Z
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@simsa04 @evan No, they aren't trained programmers. The employees in question range from building inspectors to customer service representatives. As I said, us tech people were not involved. They didn't need our help.A layperson doesn't generally need to write an office suite themselves. But office programs are large and complex, with a lot of functions that could be readily used to customize them for a specific need, if those functions are exposed in an easy to use fashion.
(DIR) Post #ARibtgB9GvY7mjTdNg by yuki2501@hackers.town
2023-01-17T01:18:39Z
6 likes, 5 repeats
@evan Everyone's should take a course about how computers work.Simple stuff. What's a hard disk, what's a USB, what's windows, what is a web browser, what are internet pages, what are apps, how they work and what in friggin' hell is this Cloud everyone keeps talking about.I get it - not everyone was born to be a systems engineer, but at least learn the basics of what technology runs your daily lives, people!I'm going to finish this post with a Carl Sagan quote:We've arranged a global civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
(DIR) Post #ARidhPRzqDvcKvdOqm by charliebrownau@pieville.net
2023-01-17T01:41:37Z
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@yuki2501 @evan Carl Sagan was a jewish kikeStatism is slaveryAssume everyone is stupid and brainwashed
(DIR) Post #ARjPzkY2w39emXH8K0 by philmyboots@mastodon.social
2023-01-16T18:21:28Z
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@evan define 'program'
(DIR) Post #ARjPzl0PEbq8CUXmWe by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T18:22:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@philmyboots I don't do specific definitions like that for my polls.It's up to you to define "program" for yourself, and then answer according to your definition.
(DIR) Post #ARjPzm6p8EZFcgYQAS by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-16T18:23:52Z
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@philmyboots it may be interesting for you to look over the conversation on this poll so far.https://prodromou.pub/@evan/109695408783994717
(DIR) Post #ARjQO0xvXzVWeKx2TA by peter_weyand@libranet.de
2023-01-16T22:38:23Z
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@evan It appears that you are teasing a method of programming using chatGPT or similar - and I suspect that you're promoting some method of programming that you want to sell. So, a couple of things. Many people want to learn how to program because they want money. Creating a novel way of programming computers that's accessible to everyone won't change that basic human drive. Let's suppose that you create a program that allows anyone in the world to create a web page by interacting with a chatGPT algorithm. Then the market for creating web pages will go to zero. So? What problem have you solved other than capturing the surplus of the people that made a living creating webpages and made the economy slightly more efficient? You've made yourself and your friends slightly richer, but I would suspect that at this stage in your life, and given that you are already comfortable, that isn't a driving life goal.Then there are people who like to program computers for a variety of reasons. There is a frisson in making the computer do what they want it to do. Perhaps your new programming language will satisfy this desire in some people. However, in others I have my doubts. There is a qualitatively different feel from making a Wordpress page, a video game, and a micro controller. Allowing everyone to "program" will not necessarily satisfy that constraint in the human mind that allows there to be a mapping between desire to some mathematical language and then from that language to a result. This borders on the religious in terms of the feelings that some people have from programming, so I suspect that what you're doing is saying to the masses "Yes, you too can self actualize like these people over here. You too can be happy." I don't think that people necessarily work that way. And this is coming from someone who isn't particularly good at programming.Perhaps you've created some chatGPT algorithm that programs interactively with another person at a low level. Will this allow someone to find this frisson of creation? Maybe. Maybe Maybe. But I suspect that once again, the easier it is to "do the thing" the less the market will value it. There is an intrinsic need for people to feel that what they are doing is important. That their lives are meaningful and that they're existence is special and privileged in some way, if only to justify to themselves the selfishness that is required to continue to exist in the world and still be happy. I don't think that making a thing easier for everyone necessarily solves this happiness problem, if that's what you want to do.On the other hand if you believe that making programming easier for everyone will lead to more physical goods and more of the basic necessities for life being available for all people, that I could get behind. Provided that the amount of value you extract from the market in terms of your own salary and the people you happen to automate out of employment is less than the value you provide to society as a whole. Even given utility maximizing constraints this is far from certain depending on the monopoly sized technological moat you're building around your product. People don't tend to be happy with just enough to get by, but they're miserable without it. So if what you're selling makes the price of food cheaper or lowers the rent you'd be helping millions of people find enough breathing room to work on their own path to Ataraxia and self actualization.EDIT - If you want to make a visual coding language I would think that the easiest way to do it would have a chatGPT algorithm or similar follow the pointer through the program and create a visual construction of how the files are all related in a sort of WSIWYG with code on the left side and the visual construction on the right. With parallel processing that splits the thread the WSIWYG diagram would likewise fork creating a tree view that shows how the computer is executing code. Then you would have chatGPT make suggestions on blocks of code in natural language, show how the execution tree (not a perfect tree as there could be Hamiltonian cycles obv) can be optimized and so forth. Going the other way around and attempting to have people code in a diagram in the beginning I don't think is useful or possible at the moment, but it might be later once well known efficient patterns were established. Just a quick thought I had. Implicit in this is the hypothesis that any program can be mapped to a graph (in the graph theoretic sense) - I believe this holds but I don't know how to prove it or if it's already been proven.There are people who are working on tooling. https://www.warp.dev is attempting to make the terminal more user friendly and is adding AI (which is OK-ish it gets some things wrong, but it's not terrible). VS Code and similar will fold AI and copilot into it's coding environment in the near future, if it hasn't already. This guy (https://project-mage.org/) was on HackerNews today (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34380373), but I don't know anything about the project and it looks like it just started. Outside of GUI environments, if you want to make the tooling better there has to be a way to make dependency management better. Currently, there are three major problems that affect all major coding environments of any complexity I've looked at. I don't know how to solve these problems or if there is a solution, just that it's a problem.- Nth level dependencies are broken. If I have a project that relies on dependency A and A relies on B and B relies on C and so forth, if there's a problem in that nth level dependency then I have to rely on that package being widely used enough to have the error being documented or be able to fix the error myself.- Mutliple dependencies conflict. There's an error that could be the result of several dependencies in which it's not possible to understand which dependency is causing the error, because you have a feature that depends on several dependencies and the error given is ambiguous. People on forum A will point to the people at forum B in order to solve the problem and vice versa.- Outdated dependencies. Not only can dependencies become outdated, but for any dependency in your project once the underlying dependencies are no longer maintained the project needs to be able to switch dependencies or it dies. Using dependencies in your project is a matter of guessing how much this will cost in the future.Whenever I've ever run into one of those kinds of problems I don't know what to do, because in a way they're unsolvable. I can fix this category of dependency problem this one time, but it will keep cropping up in one form or another into the future.One potential way to solve this is to unleash the chatGPT coding bots on dependency trees on the major repositories (Node.js, Crates.io and so forth) and have it look for any dependency issues and rate them based on their likelihood of breaking projects, although I don't know if such a system would be gameable by those people that want their projects at the top of the rankings. Right now though I don't know the best way of choosing the best dependency across a range of competitors other than the current number of active developers or github questions and the crossing my fingers that it won't be deprecated in the near future.
(DIR) Post #ARjQO1KGCxN7lbOsHQ by clacke@libranet.de
2023-01-16T22:58:44Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@peter_weyand @evan Wow, you read a lot of things into a very brief question. But that's interesting!To me the extrapolation of the question is "should we be teaching computing literacy and/or computational thinking in primary school" and my answer is an unqualified "yes". And then there's a lot of detail going into how to make that meaningful, what tools to use, etc.But today I think understanding on some level what computing and programming is about is essential civic understanding like the water cycle, the political process, literacy, the political process, how to cook, how to do laundry and dishes, basic woodworking and sewing, the economy, human rights, high-school-level natural science and history.
(DIR) Post #ARkZWRZXbMQIENbBuy by splicer@makersocial.online
2023-01-16T23:53:06Z
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@evan This raises important related questions to me because I’m a STEM/STEAM instructor inasmuch as I’m anything these days. Do we start at basic principles or do we start with something much more high level that hides layers of complexity? I tend to think demystifying technology is more important than the pragma around controlling it. But they shouldn’t be mutually exclusive, so my answer here is basically agree. Everyone should have access to learn programming (defined broadly)
(DIR) Post #ARkZWS2FsbOLfR27fs by evan@prodromou.pub
2023-01-17T00:01:38Z
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@splicer it's weird that we teach programming like "this is how to print out the first 50 Fibonacci numbers" instead of starting with "this is how to cross post to Tiktok and Snapchat"
(DIR) Post #ARkZWSRmLhoAwayVSS by feld@bikeshed.party
2023-01-18T00:04:01.151481Z
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Teach them how to solve a problem that matters to them and it will change their world
(DIR) Post #ARkadMCw2sHZZesyQK by tony@toot.hoyle.me.uk
2023-01-15T21:55:01Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@evan Everyone should be given the opportunity to learn to program and should be taught the problem solving skills that enable that.Everybody should be taught that 'making stuff' is not the sole province of large companies and anyone can do it, if they want to.
(DIR) Post #ARkajyKDEribWxRZgm by Leaflord@leafposter.club
2023-01-18T00:17:54.460340Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
On the other hand.... post collapse tech cults worshipping machines they only know how to roughly operate
(DIR) Post #ARkaqfJWJukaazJNj6 by po3mah@mastodon.social
2023-01-16T18:28:38Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@evan If you mean methodological, systemic, algorithmical, divide-and-conquer way of thinking about the world around us, then yes. It's very useful mind model (among others).
(DIR) Post #ARlHTaLIvuW4XvO3cG by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-01-17T16:14:19Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I don't like this thinking that software has to be products. first and foremost, it's an expression of will and culture. then, some more elaborate pieces are literature. some pieces can also be turned into products, but productizing software is something quite different from writing, developing and maintaining it.in a great brazilian movie, Central do Brasil, the lead character's business is to write and post letters, on behalf of illiterate people, at the central bus station of a big city.being dependent on such a basic service is what illiteracy brings. being computing-illiterate as to be unable script some basic automation brings a similar kind of dependence.just like various layers of illiteracy has negative consequences for democracy, facilitating control of the populace by ill-intentioned literate, so does computing illiteracy enable the ill-intentioned literate to control them, to keep them divided and helpless so as to better subjugate them. all these forms of illiteracy promote the opposite of autonomy and liberation: they condemn to alienated subjugation.
(DIR) Post #ARlHUX18mWRaWTPHsW by simsa04@gnusocial.net
2023-01-17T17:02:34Z
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I understand that you approach programming and computation (not necessairly the same) from a cultural angle. And I can sympathize with that. But that doesn't prevent sofware from being primarily a product, driven by capitalist, labour exploitative, and resource extractivist realities. In context of these realities I find it rather problematic to think of programming as something cultural as it tends to sugarcoat and disguise the aforementioned realities. The creeping in of a style of thinking that relishes in practical constraints with only technical fixes as accepted solution is just one of the impacts programming as style of thinking and as created result does have. At least IMO. But irrespective of this, I can see your point and cherish it as attempt to keep a humanistic outlook.
(DIR) Post #ARlHUXTV5583wQfw5A by lxo@gnusocial.net
2023-01-17T17:23:03Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I insist that this is a very limited view of software, that would be analogous to equating writing with some specific kind of literature, or with professional journalista one-liner script that does something you often do on your computer (handheld, laptop, desktop, whatever) is also software! even if it's created by recording clicks and drags and turning it into a "macro"! it's not high literature, but it's like recording your thoughts in a dear journal, or writing letters (or social media posts) to your friends, and it can be far more helpful and empowering (liberating, really) than any software product ever will be, because it addresses *your* *frequent* needs