Post ARe8zH9TYmzobFAfp2 by Popehat@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by Popehat@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #ARdzfdQs72rKK3rrhw by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T19:48:53Z
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I got more pushback than I anticipated on one argument in my post about the Ninth Circuit decision about the MAGA-hat-wearing-teacher: the idea that a MAGA hat is not self-evidently outside acceptable public conduct. I certainly have a reaction to seeing someone in a MAGA hat — I figure they’d probably hate me, and I probably wouldn’t care to hang out with them — and I know some people have stronger reactions. But . . .
(DIR) Post #ARdzfe1jtyLkAP7JAm by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T19:49:24Z
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…I can’t wrap my head around the concept that openly supporting a former President, who got 75 million votes last time, who is still hugely popular among Republicans, is not only completely acceptable in my social circle or yours, but is completely unacceptable in a way that the law should enforce. It’s just not in the realm of reason. It’s one of the more striking examples I’ve encountered recently of in-a-bubble thinking.
(DIR) Post #ARdzfi3Iw5yiePscAS by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T19:49:52Z
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….. It’s actually scary to me that some people think that tens of millions of people should be treated as as-a-matter-of-law outsiders. It’s a terrible, terrible way to run a society.
(DIR) Post #ARe2TiOa8N2U6Qnw5A by LizardSF@universeodon.com
2023-01-14T20:22:39Z
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@Popehat The problem is, as I'm sure you know, a LOT of people, regardless of politics, really don't grasp the distinction between "No person should do this" and "No person should be ALLOWED to do this."I could fill up Mastodon's servers with my list of things I wish people wouldn't do, will passionately try to convince them not to do, will shun them for doing and encourage others to do likewise -- but which I don't think the law should prevent them from doing.
(DIR) Post #ARe2V6tkWF4OO032bQ by Tilopa@convo.casa
2023-01-14T19:51:11Z
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@Popehat Watching people harass people wearing those red MAGA hats made me cringe. Who are the intolerant fascists again?
(DIR) Post #ARe2V7lHJDt7415n2O by ldpm@wandering.shop
2023-01-14T20:08:22Z
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@Tilopa @Popehat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
(DIR) Post #ARe2V8ZcI49ba8dzV2 by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:22:05Z
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@ldpm @Tilopa Ugh, Popper. The problem with the paradox of tolerance model is presumes people will be rational and honest about what’s intolerant, instead of deciding that anyone who deviates at all is basically a Nazi.
(DIR) Post #ARe2fSicFJd4xNmDNg by jbminn@toot.bldrweb.org
2023-01-14T19:54:38Z
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@Popehat [incoming godwin nod]how long was the swastika tolerated in public before it became universally associated w/ awful people? the red hats are on that trajectory + where the hat-signaled ideology leads isn't difficult to imagine. data points exist, things have happened.
(DIR) Post #ARe2fT3WzYMM0FYuyu by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T19:56:22Z
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@jbminn So? You could argue that a leftist hat might eventually lead to Stalinism. The point is you’ve got a vastly popular and supported political and social movement and some people want the law to ban it.
(DIR) Post #ARe2fTPreWDx7W0knA by jbminn@toot.bldrweb.org
2023-01-14T20:02:39Z
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@Popehat point taken, but symbology is the key here. if [x] is widely viewed as a symbol of hate + potential violence, walk back to why that symbol came to be associated w/ that conduct.
(DIR) Post #ARe2fTpO7cdmOfx8Zk by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:11:01Z
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@jbminn Okay. But widely taken by whom? This is what I’m talking about. 47% of voters definitely don’t agree; they voted for Trump. I suspect that the vast majority of the 51% of Biden voters don’t agree either. It’s a relatively small group that’s trying to say the legal system should make the political iconography of a vastly larger group illegal.
(DIR) Post #ARe2oJO2JMNEcXN21Y by avram@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:28:16Z
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@Popehat I can't wrap my head around the concept that a guy can engineer a violent putsch and still be widely supported, but the nation is what it is.Anyway, I hope some student at that school is making bank with t-shirts calling the teacher a fascist bigot or something.
(DIR) Post #ARe2vCgvbQCXsmUeFk by shermandorn@mastodon.online
2023-01-14T20:25:20Z
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@Popehat You provided a clear legal explanation, in an era when many Americans don't trust the stability of law (and I think for some pretty good reasons, hello Corruption SCOTUS, though I agree with your reasoning). As an historian of education I'd have put it differently. 1) There is a consistent pattern of people with power having used schools to punish those with dissenting views -- Jehovah's Witnesses, Communist teachers, LGBTQ educators and students -- ... 1/
(DIR) Post #ARe2vE5QPpOID2xj4i by shermandorn@mastodon.online
2023-01-14T20:28:30Z
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@Popehat ... and the argument on behalf of punishing the red-hat teacher is saying at one level, "the problem in the past is not the abuse of schools' power to punish based on identities and political views, but who it was punishing." And I think that's the wrong historical lesson to draw. 2) At another level, the argument on behalf of punishing is an argument AGAINST individual conversation, of using power to substitute for civil confrontation. 2/2
(DIR) Post #ARe4WHQL4PzjEEydl2 by Catawu@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T19:53:07Z
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@Popehat How would they feel about a teacher wearing a swastika? They’d lose their minds if a teacher wore an Obama or Biden hat.
(DIR) Post #ARe4WHpVYq7yUIkjzM by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T19:54:57Z
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@Catawu They’d probably feel differently because a swastika is very different than a MAGA hat. That’s what I’m talking about.
(DIR) Post #ARe4WIR5J8BYMqKkYi by h_albermann@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:26:04Z
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@Popehat @Catawu Swastika 1923 or 1945? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_PutschIs a state in which a relevant amount of the population is radicalized basically defenseless? Interesting perspective. Thus, the Third Reich was simply inevitable and the whole discussion about a special German responsibility is invalid.
(DIR) Post #ARe4WIxLNBzPytQVqC by h_albermann@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:32:04Z
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@Popehat @Catawu At what point is resistance appropriate? What criteria do you think must be met?
(DIR) Post #ARe4WJOziO6jMeMawK by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:39:47Z
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@h_albermann @Catawu Individual resistance is always appropriate. We’re talking about when the state should step in and suppress ideas.
(DIR) Post #ARe4ruObMuP6BBTgjA by vruz@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:40:24Z
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@Popehat It's a symbol of eliminationism and white supremacy, indistinct from KKK hoods and confederate flags.A terrible way to run society is to accept those things as normal without care for the existence of minorities that supremacists want to blow up, not always with 0% rate of success.Just outright racist.
(DIR) Post #ARe4ruptjQEpXqFUH2 by ML2@akkoma.sandhill.social
2023-01-14T20:52:28.748904Z
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@vruzThere's a difference between not accepting something and making it outright illegal, and Popehat is criticizing the latter in this case.@Popehat
(DIR) Post #ARe4ur3gEXP6hI641Y by killfile@newsie.social
2023-01-14T19:58:57Z
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@Tilopa @Popehat If someone walked around in a t-shirt that said "I 🍆 Tweens" that wouldn't be *illegal* but I'd expect people to shame and shun that person. Part of what holds society together is the definition of a set of acceptable ideas and the exclusion of others. Social change comes as we alter what is and isn't acceptable.There's no particular reason to be tolerant of fascism and I'd argue society is better not tolerating it.
(DIR) Post #ARe4urUyb3Eq3wrrZQ by Tilopa@convo.casa
2023-01-14T20:03:39Z
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@killfile @Popehat Wearing a red MAGA hat is the most inoffensive thing in the world. To allow yourself to be triggered by such a trivial thing ... My God, how do you expect to get through this life? Also, it plays directly into the MAGA narrative: We told you libs are fascists, & they are proving it by attacking us. It's bad tactics. If people want to broadcast their support of Trump - despite what you may wish - it's not illegal, just sad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2oLFKYNInQ
(DIR) Post #ARe4us0Aj4BxchSmC8 by andymoose@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:26:33Z
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@killfile @Popehat @Tilopa let’s apply this thinking to someone wearing a rainbow flag hat or t-shirt amongst MAGAs. How would that play out?
(DIR) Post #ARe4usi85dLzp21si8 by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:28:55Z
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@andymoose @killfile @Tilopa Depends on the MAGAs. Some wouldn’t care. Some would judge but ignore. Some would say unpleasant things or even do unpleasant things.
(DIR) Post #ARe4ut7eYjlp6ByGUi by Tilopa@convo.casa
2023-01-14T20:31:58Z
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@Popehat @andymoose @killfile As a gay man, and crossdresser, am I allowed to say that I find this totally offensive, and inappropriate? Pendulum, folks... pendulum..
(DIR) Post #ARe4utYwvFbYSqk42a by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:32:30Z
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@Tilopa @andymoose @killfile Why would you not be allowed to say that?
(DIR) Post #ARe4z4jXKcy0Gggg08 by debihope@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T19:49:51Z
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@Popehat I'm glad we can spot them before they spot us.
(DIR) Post #ARe55lb2sflCwWuFsm by AIaYYAle4i1uKmKpqy.gme@bofh.social
2023-01-14T19:50:03.537873Z
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Political regalia has no business in a public school setting no matter who’s team you’re on. Same goes for Joe Biden hats.
(DIR) Post #ARe55mA8mBpihNKHaK by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T19:54:08Z
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@gme That’s a policy that might have worked if the school here had actually had it. They didn’t. They singled out one message.
(DIR) Post #ARe55miAjf3UOvFSd6 by LizardSF@universeodon.com
2023-01-14T20:14:34Z
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@Popehat @gme It also runs into the question of "What's political?". To some people, a teacher with a picture of their same-gender spouse on their desk is being "political". There may be a narrower legal definition I don't know of, however.
(DIR) Post #ARe5KYiX31c9LISgMa by drahardja@sfba.social
2023-01-14T20:50:30Z
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@Popehat I’m trying hard to see this from a strictly legal and unemotional perspective, and I keep getting hung up on the fact that the Republican party tried to commit an insurrection and continues to deny the humanity of many.I don’t pretend to understand the balance between law and culture, but a person displaying symbols of a regime of domination makes for a hostile environment. Just because something is politically popular doesn’t make it not harmful.
(DIR) Post #ARe5KaREeIy0gENtgG by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:54:47Z
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@drahardja Everyone’s free to think that big parts of society are harmful. The question is (1) is “47% of society is extreme and should be legally treated as such” a serious sentiment? (2) is “47% of society is extremist and should be shunned that way” a serious sentiment? Or are these self-indulgences?
(DIR) Post #ARe5SY77AwOlmslnu4 by h_albermann@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:49:56Z
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@Popehat @Catawu An important difference. I don't have a good answer to my own question. Moreover, qualifying all GOP voters as fascist is surely wrong. Except that not all NSDAP voters were convinced fascists in 1933 either. They just gave it the votes it needed to eliminate democracy.The similarities to the situation in Germany before 1933 are nevertheless disturbing.
(DIR) Post #ARe5SYatOEDZHEhaJk by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:56:43Z
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@h_albermann @Catawu I agree that there are similarities between the American Right and the proto-Nazis that are troubling.I don’t think “let’s normalize making 47% of society be outside of society” is the way to ward off the danger.
(DIR) Post #ARe5eBT1CXKD1bYye0 by aburka@hachyderm.io
2023-01-14T20:50:41Z
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@Popehat of course it's not illegal and political expression shouldn't be policed by the government, but yes it is socially unacceptable. A bunch of people voted a fascist into office. That's a bad thing and they are bad people for doing it. The fact that they succeeded doesn't make it retroactively less bad. So saying "supporting a former president must be acceptable" is reductionist and circular.
(DIR) Post #ARe5hW2bAGBfhbnIhc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2023-01-14T21:01:47.076139Z
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@Popehat Wow, I didn’t think the implications of MAGA support flew over your head when you read this. I think it’s been pretty well stated by others the parts about dogwhistling and the comparisons with the swastika and the hood and robe.Overall, I think if 47% show support for unquestionably authoritarian and exclusionary ideas and figures, it’s probably dangerously close to collapse. Speaking from outside the US btw.
(DIR) Post #ARe8JpAKhudHvfo4Lw by jonbecker@edumasto.org
2023-01-14T21:01:20Z
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@shermandorn @Popehat I think I disagree with the Garcetti analysis. The question is not whether he had to wear a hat as part of his job duties. What teachers choose to wear at official job functions is done "pursuant to official job duties," especially where there are professional dress codes. (I will add that I tend to agree with where the opinion ends up, though not with how it got there.)
(DIR) Post #ARe8JpdOxpsvNpPHf6 by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T21:05:29Z
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@jonbecker @shermandorn Except here there was no dress code and no general prohibition on political garb. That’s exactly the issue.
(DIR) Post #ARe8Jq2DTZjacn16LA by jonbecker@edumasto.org
2023-01-14T21:09:46Z
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@Popehat @shermandorn that's fair, but could the principal argue that there was an unwritten rule, of sorts? That everyone effectively knew what was expected by way of attire?
(DIR) Post #ARe8JqWheE7Y9LHRrM by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T21:29:23Z
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@jonbecker @shermandorn Unwritten rules don’t tend to fare well in First Amendment analysis.
(DIR) Post #ARe8htKsr1anoSDYwK by drahardja@sfba.social
2023-01-14T20:56:36Z
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@Popehat Is “percentage of population” a good measure of extremism, though?Many atrocities were very popular. I’m sure you can think of more than I can.But I understand you’re approaching this from a strictly legal perspective, and in that field I am woefully uneducated.
(DIR) Post #ARe8htof4JPbIo9LM0 by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T20:59:09Z
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@drahardja Let’s say we classify 47% of American society as dangerous fascists.What’s your plan?How do you see this as going?
(DIR) Post #ARe8huLH73V2vxPOBk by drahardja@sfba.social
2023-01-14T21:04:26Z
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@Popehat We outlaw Fascism and make it illegal to promote the philosophy, and follow through with persecution of those who break that law. I think it’s already illegal to foment insurrections, right?We did the same (admittedly badly) with slaveholders, and people who persecute religions and other protected classes.To me Fascism is not just merely an opinion; it’s a political movement that is inherently incompatible with democracy, and harmful to large groups of vulnerable people.
(DIR) Post #ARe8hvvTDy2xqVLoFE by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T21:06:16Z
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@drahardja OK you’re seriously scaring me now.
(DIR) Post #ARe8zF8L42tkL8cjlw by drahardja@sfba.social
2023-01-14T21:15:21Z
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@Popehat I’m probably mangling my arguments because I’m entirely out of my league when talking about law.From a societal point of view though, I think giving groups the ability to exclude people who promote views that are harmful to vulnerable people within that group is something worth protecting. MAGA’s association with intolerance, authoritarianism, and bigotry is pretty clear in my eyes.
(DIR) Post #ARe8zFeb86hbxBiV3Q by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T21:18:00Z
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@drahardja Well, the good news is you’ve reached common ground with MAGA people. They, too, think that society should be able to suppress dangerous ideas and the people who promote them.People like you.
(DIR) Post #ARe8zGEkxfcrlKdNPk by drahardja@sfba.social
2023-01-14T21:28:11Z
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@Popehat Yeah, that’s a fair point.I’m honestly not sure I know how to strike a balance between allowing freedom of expression and protecting vulnerable people from an existential threat like Fascism, and I think my legal opinion is poorly formed.
(DIR) Post #ARe8zGjb70IPIz40UC by drahardja@sfba.social
2023-01-14T21:34:31Z
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@Popehat What is your opinion on whether a school can exclude a teacher who wears a hat that says “All XXX must die” where XXX is some minority population, e.g. Immigrants, black people, gay/trans people, etc.? To me MAGA represents a lot of these bigoted views rolled into one. Should a teacher be allowed to display this and continue to do their work?I know this sounds like a reply-guy question, but be assured I am actually curious about your opinion since I have a bit of your attention here.
(DIR) Post #ARe8zH9TYmzobFAfp2 by Popehat@mastodon.social
2023-01-14T21:37:13Z
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@drahardja Something like that would likely be seen as inherently disruptive and fail the Pickering balancing test. More so if it provoked disruption, as it likely would.But the Ninth Circuit — famously liberal, the most liberal court in the country — clearly thinks the comparison is ridiculous, and so do I. And I despise Trump.
(DIR) Post #AReBolUEjeJBMIYshk by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-01-14T22:10:20Z
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@Popehat "Fuck the draft"
(DIR) Post #AReNcYDfR4i0BaknS4 by TurdFerguson@noagendasocial.com
2023-01-15T00:22:38Z
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@Popehat agreed