Post ARds0ckP3UDIe7V6pM by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
(DIR) More posts by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
(DIR) Post #ARds0ckP3UDIe7V6pM by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T16:26:41Z
0 likes, 4 repeats
OK, language weirdness question.Someone recently said:"I just about caught the train."Did they catch it or not? Perhaps it depends whether you think of English as (one of) your first language(s).As always, if you're happy to do so I'd be grateful if you'd boost for reach, and to get beyond my circle of followers.Thank you!
(DIR) Post #ARds0gPzPKGG1xyrZ2 by mansr@society.oftrolls.com
2023-01-14T18:28:22Z
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@ColinTheMathmo The phrasing feels weird to me. Where is the person who said it from?
(DIR) Post #ARdvUekAUuVRO4P30y by robinhouston@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T16:44:53Z
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@ColinTheMathmo Is this a “divided by a common language” thing? It seems unambiguous to me that they caught the train, but apparently I'm in a minority of English-speakers with that interpretation. Wondering if there's a UK/US divide.
(DIR) Post #ARdvUfFMcvSYwozxdg by copiesofcopies@social.coop
2023-01-14T16:48:29Z
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@robinhouston @ColinTheMathmo “just about” has always meant “nearly” in my US English speaking world
(DIR) Post #ARdvUfpWSUNokxuq00 by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
2023-01-14T18:58:11Z
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@copiesofcopies @robinhouston @ColinTheMathmo I think that's it - in UK English we don't see "about" as a modifier for this, so we see it as "I just caught the train" or "I only just caught the train". Excuse me as I just have about 2 minutes to catch my train now
(DIR) Post #ARdvUh0Y4ynUPS59pA by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T19:01:22Z
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@KevinMarks I disagree. To me:"I just caught my train" means either I did it recently, or succeeded by a small margin."I just about caught my train" means I missed it by a small margin.@copiesofcopies @robinhouston
(DIR) Post #ARdwJ8IOti5NWLU4Ho by JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk
2023-01-14T19:16:29Z
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@mansr @ColinTheMathmo It is a very British way of saying you either only just caught the train or you only just missed the train, depending on how and where you said it.
(DIR) Post #ARfFTdjcxGiYD6u1lQ by gmcgath@liberdon.com
2023-01-15T10:26:04Z
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@ColinTheMathmo My reaction, as a literate, native English speaker, would be, "You what?"
(DIR) Post #ARfG6zcvUlA9OuX84m by LexStarwalker@zirk.us
2023-01-14T19:39:25Z
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@ColinTheMathmo "Just about" means "not quite". So another way to say the same thing is "I didn't quite check the train". They missed the train. Native English speaker and writer here. 🙂
(DIR) Post #ARfG70Fv9mM3LqmGrA by kentindell@mastodon.social
2023-01-15T00:21:12Z
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@LexStarwalker @ColinTheMathmo But “we have just about enough fuel to reach our destination” means we do have enough fuel.
(DIR) Post #ARfG70jhN4AqqCi3Gq by gmcgath@liberdon.com
2023-01-15T10:33:10Z
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@kentindell @LexStarwalker @ColinTheMathmo US native (NH) here. I'd take that as "We may or may not have enough fuel to reach our destination." To me, "just about" usually means "right on the edge." "I just about caught the train" means "I may or may not have caught the train" to me, which just sounds weird.
(DIR) Post #ARfGsoTCHO8ChLmj3Y by kentindell@mastodon.social
2023-01-15T10:41:48Z
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@gmcgath @LexStarwalker @ColinTheMathmo There are two definitions of “just about”: one is “almost”, the other is “but only just” (both are given in the Collins English Dictionary). Outside of England, what is and is not commonly used can be different. See for example the use of “couldn’t care less” in England, which becomes “could care less” in the US.
(DIR) Post #ARfJ9mMfYm4503wvIW by gmcgath@liberdon.com
2023-01-15T11:07:18Z
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@kentindell @LexStarwalker @ColinTheMathmo To me it's in between the two. For example, if I say, "We're just about finished," I mean, "We may be finished. Have we forgotten anything?"
(DIR) Post #ARhHRRixEE6EbYabdQ by vickwick@mastodonapp.uk
2023-01-16T09:35:10Z
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@ColinTheMathmo Are you asking British English speakers or US English speakers?I'm British and if I "just about" caught the train, I got on it with seconds to spare.
(DIR) Post #ARhHRSAFajvxyDMPBI by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-16T09:46:18Z
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@vickwick What has emerged (although it is known by others, and has been for some time) is that there is an idiom here that most people don't know about.If you "just about" do something then you don't, but you nearly did. So if you "just about" catch the train, then you don't.But in many place in Britain (but not everywhere!) to say you "just about caught the train" then you *did* catch it. It's an idiom - the meaning as a whole is not the meaning of the individual parts.So ...1/n
(DIR) Post #ARhHRSk3RcZdlG6zzM by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-16T09:49:02Z
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@vickwick ... the idiom exists in your dialect of English, but it doesn't exist in mine. To me, if someone "just about" caught the train then absolutely they didn't.By analogy, I've "just about" finished my homework means I have *not* finished my homework.The interesting thing is how baffled people are by the other option. People just don't know about this idiom, so the alternate understanding is unexpected.More, the idiom is not in all British English dialects, and not absent in ...2/n
(DIR) Post #ARhHRTInMSMZV0Mk8e by josh@squ.alid.pw
2023-01-16T09:57:28.442486Z
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@ColinTheMathmo @vickwick I'd query that actually as a native BrE speaker"I just about caught the train" => I'm on the train"I've just about finished my homework" => the homework is almost but not quite doneNot sure if the past tense is causing another wrinkle here, or if it's a sense of "achieved for the most part" somehow
(DIR) Post #ARhHRWznd1XqxFVd5M by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-16T09:51:00Z
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@vickwick ... in all US dialects of English, it's more nuanced than that.If you want to see a breakdown by country, you can see the polls here:https://mathstodon.xyz/@robinhouston/109693076166773714I hope you're finding it interesting!3/n, n=3
(DIR) Post #ARhJtpGxT9Xdei9ei0 by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-16T10:18:21Z
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@josh To me, if you say "just about" then it's equivalent to "not, but nearly". The fact that you *don't* read it like that is because it's an idiom, a phrase that must be understood as a whole, not analysed from its components.It's not the tense that's messing it up, it's the existence of the idiom in some, but not all, dialects. For my dialect, which doesn't have the idiom, if you "just about" did something, then you didn't.Neither is right or wrong, they are simply different.@vickwick
(DIR) Post #ARhJtq12hoP9xdiSXY by josh@squ.alid.pw
2023-01-16T10:25:02.539200Z
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@ColinTheMathmo I'm not disagreeing that it's an idiom, I'm pointing out that my idiolect (which does use the "successfully caught the train" interpretation) isn't consistent in its meaning.I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but that it's too simplistic to say that UK English, or even any subdialect of it, has or doesn't have it, since I have two sentences which completely naturally to me have the opposite interpretation. One hypothesis might be the tense; another is that "just about" simply means "near but not at the point of completion" and that context has to disambiguate further
(DIR) Post #ARhKUQN70pfF8rU6oi by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-16T10:28:44Z
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@josh Right, it sounds like we are probably just about in agreement.(see what I did there?)More seriously, yes.Primarily ... it's complicated. The victory here is getting people to realise just how messy it it, and how easy to be misunderstood, even when you think you've being clear.
(DIR) Post #ARhKaVtPOmVO0CUizw by josh@squ.alid.pw
2023-01-16T10:32:46.650305Z
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@ColinTheMathmo Yeah, I think this discussion goes very differently depending on whether one approaches from a descriptive-linguistics "huh what's going on there" point of view or a practical "how can I most clearly communicate what I mean" one
(DIR) Post #ARkBiX92JLxS5ZQwO8 by tn5421@fedi.absturztau.be
2023-01-17T19:37:26.372531Z
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@ColinTheMathmo they are "not quite" at the train, possible they missed it. This phrasing seems uncommon for someone that missed the train but not impossible.
(DIR) Post #B2WdJut9mg5JYekABU by ykonstant@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T16:31:54Z
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@ColinTheMathmo They caught the train for sure. Evidence: there's not a single swear word in there.
(DIR) Post #B2WdJwUloJlYXbLiS0 by david@social.tchncs.de
2023-01-15T09:47:40Z
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@ykonstant @ColinTheMathmo This. And would one not use "missed the train" if one actually just missed it? Thus, my uneducated guess (non-native speaker) is that the verb "catch" outweighs any nuances regarding the "about". Thanks for the interesting topic!
(DIR) Post #B2WdJxPUPR8VNVt0rI by blockforest@mastodon.social
2023-01-15T14:18:30Z
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@david @ykonstant @ColinTheMathmo I think that's the difference, I wouldn't say I just about caught it, unless I had caught it, because otherwise I would have missed it. I would say 'I missed the train', or 'I missed it by a whisker', or something similar, with additional swear words probably.
(DIR) Post #B2WdJyQacpbuXDPPDE by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-15T14:27:59Z
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@blockforest One could say "I nearly caught it" which, despite the presence of "caught" means you actually missed it.I read "I just about caught is" as equivalent to, but even more whisker-like, as "I nearly caught it".@david @ykonstant
(DIR) Post #B2WdOyKyODJXhZAIUq by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T16:53:53Z
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@robinhouston To me, "just about" implies failure. If I recount a success I would use "only just".
(DIR) Post #B2WdbrPXS8iZz6Rj2e by clickhere@mastodon.ie
2023-01-14T19:55:29Z
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@ColinTheMathmo @KevinMarks @copiesofcopies @robinhouston Hiberno-English has entered the chat: To me, "I just about caught my train," means I got the train by making it just on time.
(DIR) Post #B2WdbsOVnRUV2CyQ52 by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
2023-01-14T20:38:10Z
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@clickhere @ColinTheMathmo @copiesofcopies @robinhouston Hiberno-English vs Cockney is always fun.After in Cockney is prospective, in Hiberno-English its retrospective. I've witnessed this incomprehension.Cockney Barman asking for an order: What are you after?Irish customer: I'm after riding the bus, thank you, but could I get a beer?
(DIR) Post #B2Wddlay2vyQWihWEq by clickhere@mastodon.ie
2023-01-14T21:03:16Z
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@KevinMarks @ColinTheMathmo @copiesofcopies @robinhouston Yeah, that's a classic example, where the Irish language, having been almost eradicated by colonial power, has shaped the English language spoken here - with that example in particular, Hiberno-English translates directly from the structure of Irish language ("tá mé tar éis é a dhéanamh" - literally, "I'm after doing it," but meaning "I've just done it").
(DIR) Post #B2WdkTMUEjZQ0H7pQG by clacke@libranet.de
2023-01-14T19:12:25Z
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@robinhouston Which side of the divide are you on?I'm not a native speaker and for me "just about" means "almost" and that means they nearly caught the train but ultimately failed.But when I thought about it I had the feeling that US speakers would agree with me while UK speakers would probably register it as "caught the train" first, with "just about" as a qualifier that they almost didn't. I don't know if that's real or just in my head.Too bad the options divided native and non-native speakers, but not different native speakers.Also if the divide is as I guessed I'm curious which side Canadians, Australians and Kiwis would each fall on.@ColinTheMathmo
(DIR) Post #B2WdkUirB33gDwbCvg by basil@sarcasm.stream
2023-01-14T22:42:07Z
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@clacke @ColinTheMathmo @robinhouston I'm with Robin. I'm very surprised to be in the native speaker minority.I've used this phrase or similar many times and intend "just about" to be synonymous with "only just"
(DIR) Post #B2WdkccPosewiHeB04 by basil@sarcasm.stream
2023-01-14T22:45:10Z
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@clacke @ColinTheMathmo @robinhouston a solid point that this could be a UK thing, that admittedly makes no sense, thus the US responses put me in the minority.
(DIR) Post #B2WdmaPB1KYmQYOKIq by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T22:51:32Z
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@basil I think it's more finely grained than that. I know multiple UK people who think "I just about caught the train" means it was missed.It's not just UK vs US.@clacke @robinhouston
(DIR) Post #B2We3I6YJXEeane56e by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T22:50:14Z
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@basil I find that bizarre, so we should, all of us, stand warned that we might be misunderstood if we use this phrase.@clacke @robinhouston
(DIR) Post #B2We3SQlvDLocPBN0i by JoEnglish@mas.to
2023-01-14T19:16:22Z
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@robinhouston @ColinTheMathmo yep, also UK English and was very surprised to see so many interpreting it as missing the train!
(DIR) Post #B2We3SzrojQKNFbOiG by richardelwes@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T20:47:10Z
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@robinhouston @ColinTheMathmo Thinking boot this, I think there’s a subtlety. I’d say I am “just about 6 foot tall” meaning I am not quite 6 foot, but am nearly, and specifically *am near enough 6 foot for the shortfall not to matter for current purposes* (maybe a suit-fitting?!).I “just about caught the train” doesn’t fit into this framing as there’s no way to miss it so narrowly that for practical purposes one actually caught it.Maybe this is why it can resolve in two different ways. 1/2
(DIR) Post #B2We3TTe21F7rbXB7w by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T19:20:59Z
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@JoEnglish I'm utterly astonished that people interpret "I just about caught the train" as meaning that they caught it.Just. Astonished.I accept that this is how people seem to interpret it, and it's clearly idiomatic usage, but it seems completely illogical to me.If you succeed then I expect you to say "I just caught the train", or "I only just caught the train", but to say "I just about caught the train" clearly, to me, means you missed it.Language is weird.@robinhouston
(DIR) Post #B2We3afFJHgM9c12gK by richardelwes@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T20:51:15Z
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@robinhouston @ColinTheMathmoAlso:“Did you catch the train?”“Yes, just about.”sounds fine to me but“Did you catch the train?”“No, just about.”would leave me completely baffled.(UK Eng speaker here agreeing with @robinhouston.)2/2
(DIR) Post #B2We3p11x5QUfEJda4 by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T20:54:20Z
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@richardelwes "Have you finished your homework?" ... "Just about" ... means no, but I'm close."Are you six feet tall?" ... "Just about" ... means no, but I'm close."Did you catch the train?" ... "Just about" ... means ... ?I simply cannot read "I just about caught the train" as meaning that you did catch it, and while I must, based on the evidence, accept as an axiom that some people do, I am utterly baffled by it.@robinhouston
(DIR) Post #B2We3qVCQP9XH5RFFA by richardelwes@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T20:59:34Z
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@ColinTheMathmo @robinhouston Or:"Have you finished your homework?" ... "Just about" ... means “give me a second… hang on… yes”
"Are you six feet tall?" ... "Just about" ... means “I’ve got my shoes on, so yes”
"Did you catch the train?" ... "Just about" ... means ... ?
(DIR) Post #B2We3rlXj7ovC45oMC by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T21:01:12Z
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@richardelwes All of those still mean "no" to me.@robinhouston
(DIR) Post #B2We3sjS8Nk6Bs7ejo by richardelwes@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T21:13:14Z
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@ColinTheMathmo @robinhouston They mean “strictly speaking no, but for practical purposes yes” - but that doesn’t work when it comes to catching trains! You seem to have found a linguistic version of that coloured dress meme @ColinTheMathmo !
(DIR) Post #B2WfDE7q40Jn6KY5JY by jebeyer@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-14T17:08:34Z
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@ColinTheMathmo I believe this varies regionally: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/66816/divergence-in-meaning-of-just-about-between-uk-and-north-american-english
(DIR) Post #B2WfDFAiAoD6LWttQm by clacke@libranet.de
2026-01-22T00:07:20Z
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@jebeyer Oh, this answer is interesting.english.stackexchange.com/a/13…I was only aware of just about to mean very nearly [ . . . ] About 20 years ago, I noticed that some sports journalists were using just about to mean only just [. . . ] Interestingly, I recently noticed a football commentator use just about with one meaning in one sentence and then two minutes later used it with the other and completely different meaningAlso interesting is the comment saying that North English English and South English English differ on this point.(hello again from 3 years in the future)@ColinTheMathmo
(DIR) Post #B2WfDFcMW0KPjHpyWu by mudri@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-15T00:32:10Z
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@ColinTheMathmo This phrasing was well enough understood in the UK a few years ago to be part of Theresa May's “just about managing (JAM)” descriptor. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/21/theresa-may-jams-rhetoric-just-managing-families-autumn-statement
(DIR) Post #B2WfP8F7lCeWKddK88 by CanisMajoris@mastodon.social
2023-01-15T11:38:01Z
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@ColinTheMathmo (non-native speaker) I understand that 'just about' is generally used as 'almost' or 'nearly', so a simpler way to put it would be "I almost caught the train" aka "I missed the train", but at the same time, I intuitively feel like a modern speaker would phrase it like "I just about caught the train" if they meant to say "I nearly did not catch the train". It's breaking my mind to explain why I think this way, but yeah. That's my reasoning.
(DIR) Post #B2WfP9Vp2bbUGiSAnQ by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-15T11:46:11Z
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@CanisMajoris This seems to be a great example of how logical constructions, logical progressions, and logical analysis does not always match the "gestalt understanding" of utterances.People don't actually say what they mean, they say what will create the right reaction in their listeners. /A Priori/ logical analysis doesn't always help.I wrote about an example of this some time ago.https://www.solipsys.co.uk/new/NotIfYouHurry.html?wa15mnLanguage is weird, but that's because people are weird.
(DIR) Post #B2WfjcS99LgHonUekS by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2023-01-16T23:30:17Z
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@this_caroline@mstdn.social Yes, and the role of the listener is often overlooked. But when there's more than one listener one tends simply to speak and assume the message is being understood.This thread show that that is not always the case.A friend of mine write a PhD thesis in engineering about a new approach to "information" where the receiver plays a greater role, and it's not just about getting data from one place to another.I need to make it available and start referencing it.
(DIR) Post #B2WfjdsPrAHwEYn9Ki by stevegrunwell@mastodon.social
2023-01-17T13:49:41Z
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@ColinTheMathmo I (native speaker of American English, raised in Ohio) interpret this as “I almost made it on, but the train doors closed before I could board, so I missed it”Then I proceed to be jealous of other places having trains.