Post ARbD18bO8Tp70LUTrM by avarowell@social.coop
(DIR) More posts by avarowell@social.coop
(DIR) Post #ARVsISnoLc5aqasLPE by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T21:53:56Z
2 likes, 3 repeats
Honest question: how exactly is just using the name of a group of people (marginalised or not), without any epithets or modifiers, disrespectful or offensive? (“because some members of that group have said so” isn’t valid).https://blog.nativesintech.org/apache-appropriation/#Apache #OpenSource #FreeSoftware
(DIR) Post #ARVsQP4q5A31bsctFo by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T21:55:22Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
How can one know, by looking at the name alone, whether the name is homage or mockery, admiration or contempt?
(DIR) Post #ARVsh7FzaeXhGToQTI by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T21:58:23Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Imagine a brand “Printers Scandinavia”. By itself it would be perfectly neutral, right? Of course “Printers Lousy Scandinavia” or “Printers Great Power of Scandinavia” would carry some connotation. But just the name?
(DIR) Post #ARVsvuQfZ8wrp8rOvQ by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T22:01:01Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
The #ASF (Apache Software Foundation) is, to most people familiar with it, a good institution with a noble cause. At worst, it would be a neutral organisation, in moral terms. How can the association between the name of a group of people (marginalised or not) and a good entity be bad in itself?
(DIR) Post #ARVt2SJyT8pafwqmrA by bonifartius@qoto.org
2023-01-10T22:02:08Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@tripu what’s more interesting to me is: why are almost exclusively long standing free software projects and organizations targeted by these bullshit actions? FSF, apache, those all are things objectively making the world a better place.really makes you think ™️
(DIR) Post #ARVu6Nc21AhPBTjPv6 by inference@plr.inferencium.net
2023-01-10T22:13:12.618818Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@tripu The same crap was said about GIMP, and "master" and "slave".
(DIR) Post #ARVu913ILwMK5EjzXs by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-01-10T22:14:38Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@tripu Greetings from berserker.town, the viking-themed fediverse node.
(DIR) Post #ARVuOstkR9OjQZqGHI by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T22:17:27Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Lastly, and by the same (flimsy) logic, 500+ million native #Spanish speakers would like to have a word with any entitled English speaker who pontificates on the word “apache” being used as a disrespectful cultural appropriation: you guys stole the word from our language in the first place. We could be offended too, or withdraw our approval for you to use it. Just use your own word!/s
(DIR) Post #ARVvPjWmrRYobs4S1o by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T22:28:48Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
To recap: a group of people in what is now known as North America (the Apache) use, to refer to themselves in the language of one of their colonisers (English), a loanword from the language of another of their colonisers (Spanish), which is an approximate transliteration of the word that a rival group of people (the Zuñi) used to mean “enemy”, sometimes referring to them (the Apache).
(DIR) Post #ARVvdU27GareblHV9E by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T22:31:20Z
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I don’t know where the Zuñi got their word for “enemy” from in the first place, and whether in turn it was a disrespectful appropriation (yes, it was).
(DIR) Post #ARVwGDMLC2fsBmD3Vw by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T22:38:20Z
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So: some Apache are angry that a benign non-profit is calling itself “enemy” using a word that moved from Zuñi to Spanish and from Spanish to English, and assert that they and only they can be “enemy”.
(DIR) Post #ARVwPE89hATXBes7Vo by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T22:39:57Z
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@anthropoidI was thinking of Amazon, but Iceland is an even better example.I love “cultural appreciation”.
(DIR) Post #ARVwWYO8m91M2hqISW by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-10T22:41:12Z
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@bonifartius But those whimsical campaigns are also affecting large companies, universities, product names, etc, right?
(DIR) Post #ARVyB749MeR98AOceO by avarowell@social.coop
2023-01-10T22:59:47Z
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@tripu I would think that ‘because members of that group have said so’ is a perfectly valid reason.
(DIR) Post #ARW10tXj5TUo9m37lw by lucifargundam@qoto.org
2023-01-10T23:23:14Z
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@tripu @anthropoid Although I am well-cultured, I am not subject to cancel-culture. Furthermore, unless given functional, reasonable cause- I do not change my ways unless presented with more-efficient options. The accuracy of my maps and graphs will reign true through the most harrowing storms.That being said, although such groups have my sympathies- I do not relent without meaningful dialogue about the entire circumstance. From beginning, end, and theoretical fourth-wall.In this context, if such groups established civil, functional communication with affected organizations- there would be the grounds to be potential change of whatever sort. But simply saying 'dont use my name in your name' means nothing unless originator have a relatively meaningful establishment to uphold. If Apache tribes started their own IT company or were trademarking Apache, then there might be some merit to it- even if it were in sympathetic retrograde. In the meantime, it's just name-squatting and it's just hindering any potential positive affect that could be attributed to it.
(DIR) Post #ARW1B4F6A4WaEjBeqG by lucifargundam@qoto.org
2023-01-10T23:23:35Z
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@tripu @anthropoid Although I am well-cultured, I am not subject to cancel-culture. Furthermore, unless given functional, reasonable cause- I do not change my ways unless presented with more-efficient options. The accuracy of my maps and graphs will reign true through the most harrowing storms.That being said, although such groups have my sympathies- I do not relent without meaningful dialogue about the entire circumstance. From beginning, end, and theoretical fourth-wall.In this context, if such groups established civil, functional communication with affected organizations- there would be the grounds to be potential change of whatever sort. But simply saying 'dont use my name in your name' means nothing unless originator have a relatively meaningful establishment to uphold. If Apache tribes started their own IT company or were trademarking Apache, then there might be some merit to it- even if it were in sympathetic retrograde. In the meantime, it's just name-squatting and it's just hindering any potential positive affect that could be attributed to it.
(DIR) Post #ARW48vSM9nDSGo3haK by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-01-11T00:06:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@bonifartius (I used to be active in the ASF, incl board member in 2020)IF this was the only thing that "they" are coming after at the ASF, then it could easily be resolved. I vaguely recall that a name change came up ~20 years ago, and it was not far off to happen.BUT, the SJW/woke religion is infiltrating the core of the ASF (and others), taking away the core values, replacing them with DIE ideology, claiming that ASF isn't diverse and inclusive.@tripu
(DIR) Post #ARW4VPZerPLa38CDVA by niclas@angrytoday.com
2023-01-11T00:10:44Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@bonifartius I fought it for a long time, but eventually realized it is a losing battle and I didn't have the energy to hold the grounds. I have completely renounced my affiliations with the ASF, and the team their have done their best to scrub my name (as I have requested).Once the Chinese stop their enthusiasm about ASF and no quality contributions decline, ASF will whither and die. Activist don't write code, but want the credits for it...@tripu
(DIR) Post #ARW5yIruyDAhbZ4rnU by niplav@schelling.pt
2023-01-11T00:27:10Z
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@tripu hehe this should've been forseeable
(DIR) Post #ARWqcIXgCOHY4EcVt2 by bonifartius@qoto.org
2023-01-11T09:09:49Z
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@tripu not to this degree though, companies usually have enough money to just buy their way out. do some diversity hires for a diversity team and have them do whatever they like in their little enclosed zone.volunteer projects are destroyed by this shit. imagine if the FSF really just had kicked out RMS and gave in to all demands. they’d be like the FSFE now, a total woke club who usurped the good name of FSF.
(DIR) Post #ARWrYP0yIBxSwA1lcu by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2023-01-11T09:20:18Z
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@tripu I would take issue with some american company using the Serbian name despite never knowing or caring about Serbia in any way. It would separate Serbia from her cultural identity and traditions. I can see how someone could take issue with the ASF using their name and identity in such a way. Now, I don't know if this is the case and I would err on the side of caution when dealing with these things.
(DIR) Post #ARXKTbHk8nOcDSw18y by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-11T14:44:24Z
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@dusnmSomeone naming their company or product “Serbia” is either making up a backronym (neutral meaning) or displaying at least some level of knowledge and/or appreciation for Serbia the country (positive meaning).How could one possibly “separate [a country] from [its] cultural identity and traditions” by simply using the name of the country to designate a non-profit organisation based in the other side of the world?How in Earth would “Serbia Vacuum Cleaners Corp.”, headquartered in Vietnam, hurt Serbian people in any meaningful way?
(DIR) Post #ARXKtJ1YepZn6rcbDc by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-11T14:49:03Z
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@bonifartiusAgreed. Large companies have many more resources to weather (fake) controversies.OTOH, the general public doesn’t know or understand or care about “slave databases”, “master branches” or “Apache Foundation” remotely as much as they are familiar with Patagonia, Iceland, Amazon, etc, so the mobs there are much bigger and more vociferous.
(DIR) Post #ARXL5wLUHrlMXPy4US by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2023-01-11T14:51:19Z
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@tripu Emotions are a funny thing, they're not rational. It feels wrong because it does. "Serbia Vacuum Cleaners Corp." sounds appalling to me precisely because it has nothing to do with its namesake, Serbia the country, the people and the Serbian ethnic identity. It's also highly unlikely to be accidental, adding insult to injury.
(DIR) Post #ARXLbX9VUTBPfYQfIG by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-11T14:57:02Z
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@avarowell(It’s curious how you deleted one very important word when quoting my post.)If anything should be considered “disrespectful or offensive” to some group of people as long as “some members of that group have said so”, then we’re screwed.
(DIR) Post #ARXMWgZv7KV3PT2Hr6 by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-11T15:07:23Z
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@dusnm “Emotions are a funny thing, they’re not rational.”Precisely. That’s the crux of this. I think that everyone should strive to be rational in moral and political matters like these. Our instincts, biases and tastes lead us to unnecessary conflict. “It feels wrong because it does.”Apparently it does not feel wrong to some people. How would you persuade them, if not appealing to reason and rational arguments?
(DIR) Post #ARXN4DYNXNZXEjIuae by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2023-01-11T14:55:46Z
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@tripu Knowing nothing about the culture, making stereotypical caricatures and imposing romantic (or otherwise) expectations onto it is where I draw the line between cultural appreciation and cultural appropriation.
(DIR) Post #ARXN4E15ocXafmjqLY by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-11T15:13:25Z
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@dusnmI think that criterion is impossible to match in practice.My challenge to you: if I knew you just a little bit, I bet I could make a long list of “cultural items” that have their origin in groups/cultures/countries/languages that are foreign to you, and that you “use” without “knowing [anything] about [them]”, “making stereotypical caricatures”, or “imposing […] expectations”.We all do, all the time. It’s OK.
(DIR) Post #ARXN5UyKGGGfY53FVA by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2023-01-11T15:13:40Z
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@tripu I wouldn't persuade them. I have no reason to. I take issue with the stance that we should strive to be more rational in policy and ethics. I think that these things cannot be divorced from emotion. The very basis of morality is emotional, we don't want people doing immoral things because they scratch our emotional itch in a negative way.Reason is grossly overrated in such matters. It was perfectly rational what Josef Mengele did. It was however, horrifically immoral.
(DIR) Post #ARXNV4NzjJa0cgFd44 by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2023-01-11T15:18:16Z
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@tripu We all do to a certain extent, I agree. This is a very fine line, incredibly undefined and hard to do so. I however reject the premise that just because something is messy and difficult to traverse we shouldn't even try.
(DIR) Post #ARXNsbLdLPbTVrMqRc by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2023-01-11T15:22:31Z
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@tripu Another way of looking at this idea is accepting the fact that people aren't perfectly rational in a way a computer is and that this is, indeed, a good thing. Emotions are a necessary part of the human experience just as much as reason is. Prioritizing one over another leads to unwanted side effects.I get the sentiment, we like to think that everything has a clean, simple and intuitive answer, but the reality is that some things just don't. Human culture is one of those things.
(DIR) Post #ARXOcqvDlyaj8T4FSC by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-11T15:30:51Z
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@dusnmI think we couldn’t disagree more 😆 “I wouldn’t persuade them. I have no reason to.”Then why communicate at all? Why raise this particular issue? Just to vent a personal feeling that we know is not going to sway anyone or affect the world in any way? Why did you share your take on this? “The very basis of morality is emotional, we don’t want people doing immoral things because they scratch our emotional itch in a negative way.”I’d say we don’t want people to do immoral things because we have reasons to think those things are bad. Sometimes our emotional itch is triggered by the wrong stimuli (and vice versa: it overlooks reprehensible acts). “It was perfectly rational what Josef Mengele did. It was however, horrifically immoral.”You do realise that emotion works at least as badly here, right? As in: “to many people, it felt perfectly good what [pick your monster here] did. It was however, horrifically immoral.”We use reason to tame and bend our instincts in a purposeful manner. That leads to more progress overall than trying to do the opposite.
(DIR) Post #ARXOlsK1w7aI5HySES by amyvdh@mastodon.social
2023-01-11T15:32:27Z
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@tripu I can see your point. I am sure there was no evil intent (probably respect even) in the naming of the non-profit. However, it is a US-based organization being asked by a group not just discriminated against by the US but the targets of centuries-long genocide of an inconceivable scale [1]. That the Apache foundation uses a feather as their icon really points to the fact that their name is related to the Indigenous people. Change and respect can go together1. https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/world/european-colonization-climate-change-trnd/index.html
(DIR) Post #ARXP3N3utmNoLVmPFg by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-11T15:35:41Z
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@dusnmIt’s not messy or difficult. It’s impossible and damaging. You would have to strip your mother tongue of many loanwords. Your culinary palette would be impoverished. The items of fashion, art, music, etc you consume will shrink. Memes, nuance, humour, etc would suffer immensely.
(DIR) Post #ARXPAHweK4TSVCg9z6 by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2023-01-11T15:36:54Z
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@tripu All I'm trying to do is make an argument that emotions and reason are two sides of the same coin. Our policy is at least as emotional as it is rational. Our justice system works on the bases of emotion, just look at the words thrown around there like "closure", "deserved", "guilty", "despicable", "shameful". We have devised rational systems to contain and direct those emotions to a useful purpose, lest people take judgement into their own hands.
(DIR) Post #ARXPOAYIbbaTd0uN4C by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2023-01-11T15:39:26Z
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@tripu I agree that cultural exchange is a good thing. We love it around here, we take pride in people wanting to know more about our culture.I disagree, however, that the Washington Redskins changing their name had such a dramatic effect as you described here.This is a prime example of the thing you just denounced as impossible.
(DIR) Post #ARXpkyymOfv3CipiMK by bonifartius@qoto.org
2023-01-11T20:34:53Z
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@niclas i can completely understand that. it's sad for apache though. i think that meritocracy got replaced with wokeness will lead to the demise of most free software. hell, even corporate backed things like go (i know you don't like it ;) are getting objectively worse at a rapid pace: a project designed by old unix folks with simplicity & correctness in mind now has a butt ugly unusable "modern" documentation pages and a cache server for the the module system - which was designed to be decentralized and correct - is running ddos attacks against code hosters because they run complete git clones all the time. all over the time of like two-three years.i skim the pages of projects i think about using to look for virtue signalling. the amount of wokeness is inversely proportional to code quality. maybe i should just stop using computers :blobsadrain: @tripu
(DIR) Post #ARYzdOoAXiGgb3to7k by avarowell@social.coop
2023-01-12T10:00:15Z
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@tripu Curious? Naaah. I just missed it out mate. Put the word back in place if you like and I’ll still stand by it.
(DIR) Post #ARa67cBaABS7eobMSe by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-12T22:47:41Z
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@avarowellBe prepared then to readily admit that a word you use or an idea you espouse is disrespectful or offensive any time some members of a group say so, and (since I presume you don’t want to disrespect or offend people) to stop using that word or discard that idea. I wish you luck.
(DIR) Post #ARa6Je3v0qaAx4km5Q by avarowell@social.coop
2023-01-12T22:49:50Z
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@tripu 😂
(DIR) Post #ARbBgqwvxRXSViKe6i by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-13T11:24:47Z
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@amyvdhThose details are important for sure.Still, I don’t understand where’s the harm in just using a word.Also, if the majority of reasonable observers (you and I included) “are sure [sic] there was no evil intent (probably respect even)”, and the #ASF itself has repeatedly mentioned “reverence and appreciation” as their motive, and in fact there’s no trace (afaik) of mockery or disdain (in fact, the colourful feather looks beautiful to me)… shouldn’t we all be saying to those Apache who are complaining:“Don’t be silly. This is a non-issue, and you know it. You have no reasonable grounds to claim offence. That does not ‘erase’ you. Nobody can ‘appropriate’ a culture or a word. Don’t exaggerate and damage a good non-profit. Surely you have more pressing issues. Please move on and grow up.”?We can respect marginalised groups, acknowledge their predicament and try to help them, and at the same time criticise them when they are wrong.
(DIR) Post #ARbD17ykS8un4VPcdE by hughster@mastodon.social
2023-01-11T19:43:50Z
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@avarowell @tripu Is it, though?To take an extreme example, one will sometimes encounter people who are gay/lesbian who insist "homosexuality is a choice". Do we immediately accept that as the collective opinion of all gay/lesbian people, or do we ask if it's representative of the majority?
(DIR) Post #ARbD18bO8Tp70LUTrM by avarowell@social.coop
2023-01-12T09:58:41Z
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@hughster @tripu My dudes, it’s just a brand name. Besides, I recon the only people qualified to debate this ain’t here to do so. It’ll all play out as it will.
(DIR) Post #ARbD19F5kraAzU4BkG by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-13T11:39:38Z
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@avarowell “It’s just a brand name.”Precisely. Why all the fuss? “The only people qualified to debate this ain’t here to do so.”Linguists? Historians? Psychologists? Lawyers?/cc @hughster
(DIR) Post #ARbE1jcIcFZfl2lVb6 by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-13T11:50:58Z
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@dusnmOf course that one sports team changing their name is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.What I say is impossible is to broadly apply those stringent criteria to always avoid “cultural appropriation” and offence towards groups or individuals. To never use cultural items when we “[know] nothing about the culture, [make] stereotypical caricatures” or impose “expectations onto it”.
(DIR) Post #ARbxFV8LkwjqpZhA7k by amyvdh@mastodon.social
2023-01-13T20:17:35Z
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@tripu What if we didn't consider it as strictly "offense" but as heritage or identity? It isn't hurt feelings, but "we don't want x to co-opt our identity (and brand with its personal associations) for their business". Apache isn't just a neutral word like "chair". It's as if a company branded itself "Judaism" (using a Star of David) or "Dalit". Who are we, as non-indigenous people, to declare "No, your culture doesn't matter. We can use anything of yours we want"?
(DIR) Post #ARc8cX97XUGDEEF04W by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-13T22:25:06Z
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@amyvdhI appreciate those ideas, Amy! Some thoughts about the words you suggest to replace “offence”:
(DIR) Post #ARc8fE8Ah5jJ7e56HI by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-13T22:25:37Z
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“Culture” (the making of meaning, iirc from my Cultural Studies MA): culture is immaterial, infinitely reproducible, and owned by nobody. In my view, nobody owns or has special rights over culture of any kind. Cultures thrive when people are eager to use and rework their items, and nobody has to ask permission to do so.You know how someone effectively “declare[s] ‘no, your culture doesn’t matter’”? Ignoring that culture and not using its artefacts — not the opposite! The Apache culture became one tiny bit bigger and healthier when a non-profit chose to name itself after it.
(DIR) Post #ARc8hWlmMlmnVbhjjE by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-13T22:26:02Z
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“Identity” (“the distinguishing character or personality of an individual”). I honestly don’t know how someone or something can hurt or diminish my identity or the identity of a group I belong to. We alone create our identity. If someone imitated the way you speak, the dishes you cook, or the books you pay attention to… First of all, I think you could be flattered (isn’t it worse to be ignored?). Second, you could argue that you identity would be a bit diluted, since you would be a bit less distinguishable — but that would be so only because your character or personality had become better appreciated and more popular among other people (again, that sounds positive). Third, if having a strong identity were important to you, you could always change your character or personality to move away from what is mainstream or trendy.I always struggle to understand how the “identity” of groups of people can be “erased” or “denied”.
(DIR) Post #ARc8isIFpK52YMXLN2 by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-13T22:26:16Z
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“Heritage”: we use it to refer to two very different types of things: stuff that is physical and scarce (property), and cultural items (tradition, folklore). We all agree that property can be unjustly appropriated. But since the #ASF clearly has not “stolen” anything physical or scarce from the Apache, by “heritage” here we mean the latter class of things. But then again, culture, memes, tradition… all that can be copied infinitely without causing damage to anyone. Those things aren’t owned by anybody.I think I bite the bullet: yes, “we can use anything of yours we want”.I honestly don’t know what you could “use” from “my” culture(s) that would offend me or affect me negatively. In fact, in most situations I can imagine, I would see normal usage (as opposed to mockery) as a sign of appreciation.
(DIR) Post #ARc8kaFPtKnHAG1ZfE by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-13T22:26:34Z
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(Yes, we have some special, narrow types of “culture” and “identity” that can be owned, and that property is protected by the law: patents, brands, trademarks, copyright, etc. But none of that applies here, right?)
(DIR) Post #ARhHx23YCDz4GRHhZo by amyvdh@mastodon.social
2023-01-13T23:03:16Z
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@tripu I think the end point here is if you agree with the thinking: "we can use anything of yours we want" re: Apaches or any other marginalized group, then defining words like culture does not really matter. If you put your feelings, the things you (or the Foundation) wants to use above the Apache people's request about its name, it's use (or abuse), history, etc.I think there's no convincing you that what they say matters so I'll end here
(DIR) Post #ARhHx33wSFtJNwTWpE by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-16T10:03:11Z
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@amyvdhDefinitely, we see things very differently! 🙂I interpret “of yours” in this context differently. My demonym, my sexual orientation, my religion… those things are “mine” only in the same way the street where I live is “my street”: I say “mine” to indicate attachment or preference — but everybody else is free to use it too, and I can’t claim any special rights over it.Culture matters to me as well. But I want cultures to grow and combine as people see best. I want all cultures to be available to everyone. That to me is the truly progressive, enlightened approach. (Almost?) every restriction seems arbitrary or conservative to me.wrt feelings: in political and moral matters, I think we should leave feelings out of the public conversation whenever possible. Feelings muddle reason. When feelings clash, there’s little room for compromise or for rational argumentation: it’s either the strongest side wins, or eternal conflict. There’s a reason legal codes strive to be objective and to define transgressions accurately, instead of appealing to feelings and other subjective factors.No need to keep on arguing if you don’t feel like it, of course. I want to put my thoughts in writing — for my future self, if nothing else :)
(DIR) Post #ARwEhF8SPnzthgl43k by amyvdh@mastodon.social
2023-01-23T15:07:23Z
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@tripu We are coming from this from very different points of view. I understand "removing feelings from political matters" is a age-old attitude of those in power. But to me it's one which neatly maintains unequal status quos. It prioritizes the advantage of those who already benefit from an inequality, conquest or power dynamic (whether colonialism, wealth or power inequality, racism, etc.) by dismissing complaints or advocacy for change ("feelings") to make them neither heard or valued
(DIR) Post #ASAo9ZUmWl8DZAsmYq by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-30T15:50:40Z
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@amyvdhI don’t understand that, Amy. Since when are feelings “progressive” and reason “conservative”?Is there any evidence that social progress happened more often in History when society gave more weight to the feelings and emotions of minorities, thinkers or philanthropists — as opposed to paying more attention to better rational arguments from their part?
(DIR) Post #ASAotJIn4AdofF5Fbc by amyvdh@mastodon.social
2023-01-23T15:13:46Z
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@tripu "Works for me!" is certainly a common attitude. But the unsaid part of that in politics etc is '.. and I don't care if it works for others". Maintaining a status quo is a very efficient way to keep things comfortable for the group benefiting. However, it's not how society changes or progresses. I think that you would advocate for progress abstractly. I just invite you to investigate where that feels uncomfortable to you and if it's about others having new rights, why that bothers you
(DIR) Post #ASAotJqp1draMn0QeO by tripu@qoto.org
2023-01-30T15:58:56Z
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@amyvdhOK, I’ll think about that!Right now, I don’t see that I feel personally uncomfortable or threatened by any of this. It may be a blind spot.Of course, to the extent that some rights are a zero-sum game, I have something to lose when public attitude or the law change to favour any of my outgroups, even if it’s a small push at the margin. But then, that’s true for everyone.(Many rights and advances seem purely good for everyone; I’m sure we would be eye to eye about those.)
(DIR) Post #ASCuSl8ITL6PCaomFk by amyvdh@mastodon.social
2023-01-31T16:10:37Z
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@tripu I think that's too simplistic. Minority points of views are not just feelings - they are rational arguments based in history. Thinking without focus on humanity or ethics is not inherently better or higher than thinking which takes that into account.
(DIR) Post #ASERbv9A6Kr6Vm9u9Q by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-01T09:56:55Z
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@amyvdhI agree. Expecting feelings from victims and reason from those in power (or vice versa) is simplistic. That was my point.I was answering to this: “‘Removing feelings from political matters’ is a age-old attitude […] which neatly maintains unequal status quos. It prioritizes the advantage of those who already benefit […] by dismissing complaints or advocacy for change (‘feelings’) to make them neither heard or valued.”You are saying that “removing feelings from political matters” benefits “those in power”, or at least that on average it tends to benefit “those in power” more.But I think that “removing feelings from political matters” benefits… those who have better rational arguments. And that is a good thing. Sometimes a club of millionaires has the best argument, sometimes a prosecuted minority has the best argument.I discount the value of feelings as valid currency in public debates for all participants (not just minorities).And I’m sure you do, too:Nationalists lamenting the arrival of immigrants, nativists longing for the “pure blood” of their race, people against abortion who weep when they think of a 6-week fetus that won’t be born, people who experience profound disgust at the idea of two men getting married… those are feelings, very specific and strong feelings. Why don’t we (you and I) give credence to those strong emotions? Because their arguments are flawed.
(DIR) Post #ASHVH12QytrH0R2EtM by amyvdh@mastodon.social
2023-02-02T16:52:31Z
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@tripu I do not discount the value of feelings in debates nor in making policy. I discredit the false idea of placing "rational" (thinking which ignores human aspects) arguments above those based on lived experience or strong feelings. I think I will leave this discussion here as I don't think we're getting anywhere useful for further understanding
(DIR) Post #ASHVH1RxS0H6Haycfw by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-02T21:22:06Z
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@amyvdhI will just say that there is nothing in #rationality that “ignores human aspects”. “lived experience” or “feelings”. That’s a false antagonism you are drawing there, Amy.My claim is that reason and evidence are the best tools we have for dialogue and progress, and that the scientific method and rational argumentation are useful even to discuss human well-being and cultural issues.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rationalityhttps://www.britannica.com/topic/rationalityhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality
(DIR) Post #ASJgKaDg7cEYne7NWy by amyvdh@mastodon.social
2023-02-03T15:50:00Z
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@tripu but if you dismiss emotions or personal experience how can you be making fully informed decisions about human well-being and cultural issues? Not all emotions are irrational. Earlier you mentioned nationalism. That's not an issue of emotions but one of learned or accepted bias. People who are anti-nationalist, progressive etc are just as passionate about their beliefs. Nationalism, racism, anti-semitism, colonialism are unethical beliefs but not unethical because they involve feelings
(DIR) Post #ASJgKaZentoZtoOvmy by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-03T22:35:25Z
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@amyvdhI think we are converging, actually :)Splitting my answer for brevity and to facilitate threads:
(DIR) Post #ASJgNwbzKDGl7H5jIe by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-03T22:36:02Z
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@amyvdh “If you dismiss emotions or personal experience how can you be making fully informed decisions about human well-being and cultural issues?”Emotions are instinctive and subjective, almost by definition. They exist solely for evolutionary reasons. They aren’t designed to disentangle complex ethical issues with fairness. They are designed to keep us alive and breed, above anything else. They are very useful heuristics in day-to-day life, but we can’t base morals or politics on them.Our “personal experience” can’t be but a sliver of what happens in the world. If I were to rely on “personal experience” I couldn’t have an opinion on almost anything. For most important subjects, I am not a member of that group, I don’t have that problem, I’m not in that tax bracket, I didn’t commit that crime, I don’t use that product — and no-one or almost no-one I know does. Also, we all live in bubbles, so our “personal experience” is hugely biased and not at all representative of what is statistically true out there.That’s why we have maths, statistics, surveys, simulations, logic, rationality, biology, psychology, sociology, the scientific method, peer review, philosophy, thought experiments, natural experiments in History. I trust all that much more to “make fully informed decisions about human well-being”.
(DIR) Post #ASJgQE3rQ2LPoYDTou by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-03T22:36:26Z
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@amyvdh “Nationalism. That’s not an issue of emotions but one of learned or accepted bias.”That right there is your bias, you see? Nationalism may seem like a bias for you. But a nationalist would counter that it is your globalist or nihilistic bias what blinds you to the necessity and the virtues of nationalism.And again: when I read/hear from/about nationalists, racists, people who oppose abortion under any circumstances, homophobes, religious fanatics… I see a lot of emotion in them. They seem genuinely outraged, concerned, worried, disgusted.Either we value all feelings and emotions and give them weight in the political discussion, or we dismiss all emotions. But you can’t have it both ways. You can’t use the feelings of the Apache or any other group as your “exhibit A”, and at the same time dismiss the feelings of a Nationalist or some other group as mere “bias”.
(DIR) Post #ASJgST4iZKcaxSgcxE by tripu@qoto.org
2023-02-03T22:36:51Z
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@amyvdh “People who are anti-nationalist, progressive etc are just as passionate about their beliefs.”Exactly.So we have very passionate people experiencing very specific and strong emotions on both sides of every issue.But it can’t be that emotions so diametrically opposed are both well calibrated, useful, constructive.Therefore, emotions can’t be trusted.So: we have to confront objective data, reasons and arguments.