Post ARPwNaXOFY5l9a8OMi by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
(DIR) More posts by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
(DIR) Post #ARNTuOe6XL8ClpRmFc by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-06T20:37:19Z
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It seems that much of the world is coming to accept "the EU approach" to regulating content moderation. I'm going to argue that it's actually bad and dangerous, and the US approach remains superior. https://www.techdirt.com/2023/01/06/if-you-dont-want-eu-style-censorship-to-take-over-the-internet-support-section-230/
(DIR) Post #ARNTuP66rDX6AgY8u0 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2023-01-06T20:42:52.444425Z
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@mmasnick This and the attempts at destroying E2EE while somehow still claiming to have it are my two biggest gripes with EU regulations by far, indeed they want to have it both ways because they simply cannot see any possible way to compromise. Not sure how to persuade people tho, there’s simply too much tech illiteracy among both politicians and civil society overall.
(DIR) Post #ARPJrhmeJe161zRRVw by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T00:23:47Z
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It seems that a lot of people on here falsely believe that me defending the American model is defending "no moderation" or saying that "amplifying hate is good."But... that's not what I said and that's not the American model at all. The American model is that companies get to experiment with moderation choices without fear of liability, and that has driven them to actually be VERY responsive to users/advertisers/partners, and to experiment with better moderation models.
(DIR) Post #ARPJriNA7tDvrEWbQW by kevix@toot.cat
2023-01-07T00:27:52Z
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@mmasnick is that caused by Section 230?
(DIR) Post #ARPJrisiEaSdR5HnbU by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T00:36:08Z
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@kevix it is helped by sec 230, but it's really backed up by the 1st amendment
(DIR) Post #ARPJrqoOkVlO21KSzQ by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T00:34:15Z
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@mmasnick the US model led to a murderous coup attempt attacking the capital 2 years ago. Unchecked libel and propaganda has costs that I would like to see addressed
(DIR) Post #ARPJrrEHCISnKHR8KG by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T00:34:52Z
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@TrexPushups that's simply not true. libel remains against the law.
(DIR) Post #ARPJrrdnfOscbRNW6q by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T00:38:14Z
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@mmasnick sure if you libel a specific person. But libeling transgender people as a group? That's happening on Twitter right now. Specific people get smeared as groomers and we get murdered yet Matt Walsh and libsoftiktok face 0 consequences. Rowling etc can silence critics with lawsuits but trans people are rarely even involved in discussions about us.
(DIR) Post #ARPJrsA3jSgUDUTHOK by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T00:40:12Z
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@TrexPushups and you'd prefer to give governments like Orban's the power to declare LGBTQ people groomers, and force companies to moderate that "dangerous" content?Do you not see how this all backfires?
(DIR) Post #ARPJsM8KIT7jAntJr6 by orc@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T00:58:25Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups Orban is already doing that (as well as most of the fascist-controlled parts of the USA.)
(DIR) Post #ARPJsN6agPKUBi5Rmy by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T01:01:43Z
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@orc @TrexPushups and, again, the EU approach gives him cover to do that. While the 1st Amendment is knocking down the American attempts to do that.That's the key point.
(DIR) Post #ARPJsjZ3BHANqLZUCe by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T00:43:25Z
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@mmasnick Orban is already doing that and so is Florida. So we have bigots allowed to say what they want but queer people are silenced. But your right about not trusting governments. I'm an anarchist. Clearly a system that enables fascism while allowing its targets no response needs re-thinking.
(DIR) Post #ARPJsjyvd3rn8bg9XU by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T00:44:38Z
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@TrexPushups and DeSantis is losing in the courts, thanks to the American underpinnings of the 1st Amendment. There are real problems that need fixing, but we fix them with more competition, especially from decentralized systems. Not with top down gov't setting the rules.
(DIR) Post #ARPJxZZ5mlSGHLtkv2 by ericfreyss@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T00:37:00Z
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@mmasnick I am sorry to say that viewed from Europe, US companies have totally failed in applying any sort of efficient moderation (against illegal content such as hate speech, or cyberharassment, against disinformation during the COVID, and so on...), in particular Twitter... which resulted in the DSA being voted eventually, harmonising national approaches.
(DIR) Post #ARPJxa2s03H3lhpXKi by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T00:38:53Z
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@ericfreyss that view from europe is based on a myth. it's fake news, based on a misunderstanding of how these things actually work.
(DIR) Post #ARPJyGpCwitaRmljVY by Kurious1@mas.to
2023-01-07T00:36:46Z
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@mmasnick Regarding your comment, “The American model is that companies get to experiment with moderation choices without fear of liability, and that has driven them to actually be VERY responsive to users/advertisers/partners, and to experiment with better moderation models.” With your comment, how does this compare with a more European-centric model?
(DIR) Post #ARPJyHCxWPtVdRshWq by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T00:38:06Z
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@Kurious1 EU model is much more top down, demanding companies follow certain (vague, amorphous) best practices, or risk massive fines for making mistakes. that leads to less experimentation, and a lock-in of existing methods, rather than more innovative attempts at moderation.
(DIR) Post #ARPK0IpwRALjGY5692 by orc@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T01:11:40Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups Is knocking down some of the time. But it's after the fact, and then the laws keep popping up again like a horrific game of whack-a-mole.The house is afire now, and the fash already control most of the legal system. If the courts won't convict, the first amendment no longer matters
(DIR) Post #ARPK0JEOyDuoUPWdGq by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T01:16:09Z
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@orc @TrexPushups so you wish to give those in power even more ability to silence marginalized groups? why? I honestly don't understand this urge.
(DIR) Post #ARPK4Ru4fZMOXmzWlc by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T01:00:59Z
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@orc @mmasnick "it will backfire and they will use the rules to hurt you" is absurd when they are already silencing and killing us.
(DIR) Post #ARPK4SHpFGMJjS6Umu by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T01:03:35Z
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@TrexPushups @orc it is not absurd. it is the history of how these things always play out. I highly recommend reading this book: https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/jacob-mchangama/free-speech/9781541620339/The powerful always exploit any crack in free speech laws to silence critics, the marginalized, and the powerless. Do not let them have that power.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIC6vdmT5wnBXkW by sashafox@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T01:02:26Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups That's Florida. You're talking about Florida.
(DIR) Post #ARPwICYE0IIpJRxLIO by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T01:04:40Z
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@sashafox @TrexPushups florida, where the 1st amendment has now allowed the courts to throw out nearly every attempt by desantis to push those laws. So I stand by my assessment. The American approach is to block those kinds of things.The EU approach is to encourage them.
(DIR) Post #ARPwID2MCGPCou3PGK by sashafox@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T01:12:28Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups At least 32 trans people were murdered in the US last year, while no trans people were murdered in Canada last year, so I think that's a win for the Canadian approach to say inciting hatred against trans people isn't allowed.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIDgPnKRqp8nOhU by IronCurtain@mstdn.social
2023-01-07T13:15:42Z
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@sashafox @mmasnick @TrexPushups Maybe the Canadian prohibition on guns also has something to do with that, and the fact that Canada has 1/10 the population of the US?
(DIR) Post #ARPwIEF9iAEmYt38qm by sashafox@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T18:18:21Z
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@IronCurtain @mmasnick @TrexPushups The idea that inciting hatred would lead to hatred should not be this confusing a concept.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIEjzrUuK6XTlvE by IronCurtain@mstdn.social
2023-01-07T18:19:41Z
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@sashafox @mmasnick @TrexPushups The cops won't always protect the marginalized against hate crimes in Canada, as the Oka crisis has demonstrated.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIFNLVCNo4ZtCFs by sashafox@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T18:20:55Z
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@IronCurtain @mmasnick @TrexPushups How did it demonstrate what?
(DIR) Post #ARPwIG1l4wi25unTFI by IronCurtain@mstdn.social
2023-01-07T18:22:36Z
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@sashafox @mmasnick @TrexPushups Did you watch the movie Beans (2020)? French Canadians discriminated thoroughly against Native Mohawks and the police didn't punish the French Canadians at all.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIGdgnv3BzYXlMu by sashafox@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T18:24:47Z
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@IronCurtain @mmasnick @TrexPushups That's not an argument against hate speech laws?
(DIR) Post #ARPwIH4HD4JlK0yzoG by IronCurtain@mstdn.social
2023-01-07T18:28:06Z
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@sashafox @mmasnick @TrexPushups The cops didn't act on hate crimes that went ever further than hate speech. And yet you trust the *cops* to protect you?EDIT: Also, my point was that hate happens in Canada as well, hate speech laws or no.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIHbbDAyMzMZbkW by sashafox@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T18:36:43Z
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@IronCurtain @mmasnick @TrexPushups Why do you think minorities are better off without any protections?
(DIR) Post #ARPwIIMkNsgdLadGEq by IronCurtain@mstdn.social
2023-01-07T18:38:02Z
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@sashafox @mmasnick @TrexPushups I don't. I just don't think Hate Speech laws should be among those protections (I do think crimes such as murder, assault, graffiti, vandalism, etc. should qualify, though).
(DIR) Post #ARPwIIsIUZvKvROSPo by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T20:41:51Z
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@IronCurtain @sashafox @mmasnick congrats you just enabled a hate movement that led to a fascists coup attempt in the US 2 years and a day ago. All because you worried about the "free speech" right to incite violence and hatred more than what the fascists will do once they seize power. Nazis don't care about laws. You have to treat them like you treat any other terrorist network. You have to destroy their recruiting and propaganda apparatus.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIJUwAuperHTJdw by IronCurtain@mstdn.social
2023-01-07T21:57:13Z
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@TrexPushups @sashafox @mmasnick and you’re also saying our response to 9/11 was right, in the process.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIK8HocJ8pJsjya by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-07T23:31:48Z
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@IronCurtain @sashafox @mmasnick https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1611521943152238592?s=20&t=Pu5cQx3LgY0sGmhZKgrMwQOh look the first amendment not applying to trans people but sure let's keep letting the fascists targeting us speak as much as they want.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIKaI8Ui2EAz6cy by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:09:03Z
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@TrexPushups @IronCurtain @sashafox that's a clearly unconstitutional messaging bill that will go nowhere.
(DIR) Post #ARPwILOH8egwjCN1XM by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-08T00:14:37Z
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@mmasnick @IronCurtain @sashafox really?Before stonewall that was exactly how things worked for trans people. And the Supreme Court has just been filled with fascists stooges. So I have 0 confidence in the courts
(DIR) Post #ARPwILsPKcnKEeT5VI by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:16:03Z
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@TrexPushups @IronCurtain @sashafox Arizona currently has a Democratic governor. They're not going to sign that bill.Also, 1st Amendment jurisprudence is different today than pre-Stonewall. While I agree that today's SCOTUS is terrible, it would require them to 100% flip their positions on 1st Amendment, which seems... unlikely.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIMSDBVR01hDgJM by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-08T00:23:52Z
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@mmasnick @IronCurtain @sashafox given they just overturned roe I'd say it is pretty damned likely
(DIR) Post #ARPwIMx3Kq6XZLeJNo by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:24:40Z
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@TrexPushups @IronCurtain @sashafox Roe is different. GOP has spent 50 years trashing Roe, but standing firm on 1st Amendment.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIOXFRkeSTtajRI by letsbekind2@eightpoint.app
2023-01-08T00:25:08Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups @IronCurtain @sashafox scotus famously never reverses a decision 🙄
(DIR) Post #ARPwIP2nYRtA3kLvcG by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:26:16Z
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@letsbekind2 @TrexPushups @IronCurtain @sashafox I didn't say that. But it *is* rare.And it is especially rare on THIS ISSUE, where it's been the GOP side that has pushed for a broad 1st Amendment.The ones they've overturned, like Roe, have been things they've been working to overturn for years.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIPbBUbOVmORODI by letsbekind2@eightpoint.app
2023-01-08T00:30:48Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups @IronCurtain @sashafox if you think the party of book bannings and shooting up drag shows are champions of the 1st amendment, then they've certainly done a good job pulling the wool over your eyes.
(DIR) Post #ARPwIQ3tlqMZDRsJyC by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:32:11Z
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@letsbekind2 @TrexPushups @IronCurtain @sashafox You're moving goalposts.I am talking about the judiciary.I agree that GOP politicians are censorial jackasses, who are blatant hypocrites.
(DIR) Post #ARPwJY5PQDAEOP7W2i by TrexPushups@eightpoint.app
2023-01-08T00:33:24Z
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@mmasnick @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox the same judiciary that has people who think Lawrence v Texas was wrongly decided?Yeah sure they will save me
(DIR) Post #ARPwJYZtarYBuxNrYu by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:36:42Z
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@TrexPushups @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox *sigh* you keep moving the goalposts. Loving is a different issue, and, as far as I can tell, there are only two justices against it. I think both should not be on the court, but I'm just explaining to you reality and you keep moving the goalposts.I'm done. Good bye.
(DIR) Post #ARPwKReOpopiiqujia by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
2023-01-08T00:36:50Z
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@TrexPushups @mmasnick @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox Love ya, Mike, but I agree. Relying on the current alt-right SCOTUS to save us from alt-right politicians seems a risky strategy.
(DIR) Post #ARPwKS8B36eWDCqW8G by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:38:41Z
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@brianonbarrington @TrexPushups @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox I'm not "relying" on them. I'm just noting that the turn they'd have to make is massive. But either way, this proves the entire point of this conversation: the others in this thread are demanding new laws to "protect" them, ignoring that the current SCOTUS will be the ones deciding on those laws.I'm saying that's a dangerous strategy.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNYmYmB2Pi3DTjU by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
2023-01-08T00:40:15Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox SCOTUS will no doubt attack any legislation that impacts major campaign contributors and alt-right causes, but that should dissuade legislators from trying anyway. If they block enough common-sense legislation, it will help create a popular groundswell for much-needed court reform, including a larger court and term limits/ending lifetime appointments.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNZFd26I3ACoh2e by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
2023-01-08T00:42:01Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox Ugh make that should NOT dissuade. Incidentally, alt-right judges have upheld some pretty censorious speech restrictions recently, including Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill, so the notion that they’re free speech absolutists is more their posturing than actual reality.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNZtKeU379LOOvY by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:44:09Z
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@brianonbarrington @TrexPushups @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox they haven't upheld the law. they tossed out a poorly pleaded complaint and asked the plaintiffs to refile.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNaXOFY5l9a8OMi by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
2023-01-08T00:45:04Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox Which is, practically speaking, the same thing. The SCOTUS has not been particularly active at defending the free speech rights of everyday Americans.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNb7Y5710xj3Gj2 by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:46:11Z
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@brianonbarrington @TrexPushups @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox it is not, practically speaking, the same thing. And... that's wrong about SCOTUS. I'm sorry, it's just wrong. There are tons I disagree with the court about, and there are lots of areas I think it's been wrong and dangerous. And they are likely to get more wrong next term.But, your summary is just not true.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNbeW6XO2byTb72 by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
2023-01-08T00:48:50Z
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@mmasnick @TrexPushups @letsbekind2 @IronCurtain @sashafox It is, practically speaking, the same thing in that it achieves the policy objectives of the alt-right. The various technical argumentation, like “original intent,” is mostly pointless sophistry and ritual. The outcome is what matters, and on this count, the alt-right has been well-served by this court.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNcDG1NAyLijLGK by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:50:38Z
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@brianonbarrington @IronCurtain It's not the same thing, practically speaking, at all. A constitutional challenge takes time. Asking the plaintiffs to file a better case is NOWHERE NEAR the same thing as upholding the law.C'mon.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNccmUTancsfj2u by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
2023-01-08T00:52:34Z
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@mmasnick @IronCurtain I’m not a lawyer, I’m focused on actual outcomes. And in general, the wealthier and more powerful one is, the more likely he is to have his case heard and decided favorably. Thus, everyday Floridians must live under tyranny for years, while the Heritage Foundation can get a “money is speech” ruling rather quickly in comparison. It ultimately points to the continued institutional decay of the American federal system.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNciS9O85uTKFt2 by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
2023-01-08T00:54:32Z
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@mmasnick @IronCurtain For another example, the Dobbs ruling didn’t take a long time. There was a packaged challenge put together and the court returned a verdict on record time that aligned with its alt-right orientation. Stare decisis, original intent, etc. were all irrelevant (and even overturned by their “adherents”).
(DIR) Post #ARPwNdA6UaFPIEGKzA by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:54:07Z
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@brianonbarrington @IronCurtain Constitutional challenges always take time. No matter who they're for. You're wrong that other cases move faster. I'm sorry, but your lack of knowledge over this is showing. Yes, those laws are frustrating. But I'm just saying be accurate in what you're saying. The law has NOT been "upheld."
(DIR) Post #ARPwNdbkpmMifzCQ5I by brianonbarrington@mastodon.world
2023-01-08T00:56:36Z
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@mmasnick @IronCurtain Dobbs was decided within 18 months of the court being packed with alt-right jurists. When they want something quickly, they get it quickly. Lengthy delays and “patience” are for everyday Americans, not contributors and special interests.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNdh4W0cQwTgfNA by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:57:06Z
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@brianonbarrington @IronCurtain again with the goalpost moving. Dobbs case took over 3 years. And, you can't JUST keep pointing to Dobbs, a case that was in the works for 50 years, involving all sorts of efforts by GOP over decades to set it up.
(DIR) Post #ARPwNeJMDfFArDbF32 by mmasnick@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:57:32Z
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@brianonbarrington @IronCurtain False. Dobbs case was over 3 years. I'm sorry, stop making stuff up.
(DIR) Post #ARUVyxjFGJuwp34ljk by d3cline@opalstack.social
2023-01-07T00:25:42Z
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@mmasnick you are right, lots of socialists here think they live in a different system than capitalism. Or that its bad that it is a monetization problem that companies will solve with better policies. But I can verify it is 100% accurate. We entered this space with no fear because of a firm understanding of the DMCA. Our policy is driven by customer demand.
(DIR) Post #ARUVyyLWxyXgjmzLPc by mjgardner@social.sdf.org
2023-01-07T00:39:31Z
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@d3cline @mmasnick America is a deeply mixed economy sliding toward #socialism and has never seen full #LaissezFaire #capitalism. It is successful to the extent that the capitalist parts are begrudgingly allowed to function.But because our culture is threaded with the #altruist moral ideal of serving others first, trade and commerce only happen because they pragmatically “work,” not because of any constitutionally inviolate recognition of the moral right to life and property.
(DIR) Post #ARUVyyobDtnKBwaYim by TruthSandwich@toad.social
2023-01-10T06:04:50Z
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@mjgardner @d3cline @mmasnick Regulated capitalism is just good capitalism. Socialism is something else.