Post ARPluJR9kdHyB4cVM0 by clive@saturation.social
(DIR) More posts by clive@saturation.social
(DIR) Post #ARPhFjveI1PWa1544G by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-07T22:21:09Z
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A Swedish car magazine did a shoot-out between an old 2005 Volvo and eleven modern carsThe modern cars had touchscreens -- the Volvo, buttons and leversThe test: After spending time familiarizing themselves with the controls, the test subjects were asked to drive while changing controls on stuff -- the AC, the radio, etcNo shocker: Using the touchscreens took much longer than knobs(Caveats: Not scientific; longer familiarity could make touchscreens more nimble)https://futurism.com/the-byte/study-finds-that-buttons-in-cars-are-safer-and-quicker-to-use-than-touchscreens
(DIR) Post #ARPiqdRD99kLBkCUk4 by doncruse@appellate.social
2023-01-07T22:39:01Z
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@clive I’m inclined to believe the study’s conclusions, and I find UI changes to virtual button placement during car software updates maddening. But when I clicked all the way through to see what car “buttons” this particular study was testing, I was underwhelmed. A few of these (climate, interior lighting) are adjusted in the first instance by the electronics, such that there might actually be less need to fiddle with them while driving.
(DIR) Post #ARPj7xft9zdgsHKNjE by uastronomer@mastodon.monoceros.co.za
2023-01-07T22:42:00Z
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@clive naah. Touchscreen can never be as fast or safe or intuitive, because there's no tactile feedback. The only way to know you're touching the right control is to take your eyes from the road and watch the screen while you tap. Because cars are dynamic environments. They move and bounce and shift, which means the screen moves under your finger. You can't trust that a control will be where you remember it being a second ago. With physical knobs and buttons, that doesn't matter because you can fumble for the right control by feel alone. Try that on a touchscreen and you'll only end up mis-tapping.
(DIR) Post #ARPk1PAYdZNQ4h6uCu by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-07T22:50:14Z
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@doncruse Yes, very good point
(DIR) Post #ARPk8klqioYl673c0G by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-07T22:52:55Z
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@uastronomer That's generally how I think about it, too -- and I know some automakers have been returning to tactile switches and knobs after finding that touchscreen slow down responsesA lot of touchscreen-car-owners, particularly Tesla owners, tell me they rely heavily on voice commands ... I suppose another test should do shoot-out between those and knobs/buttons?
(DIR) Post #ARPkToAnGcv9jNlSYy by ike@im.im
2023-01-07T22:52:56Z
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@clive @JKuznicki interestingly, I have a mid-2010s Toyota with a touch screen. I specifically went and got a Car Thing from Spotify, just because it added knob and button functionality. (Also voice command, but that will replace tactile long before the touch screen does. Too dangerous, no good haptics)
(DIR) Post #ARPkTs5Gj6sVrPD6VU by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-07T22:54:08Z
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@ike @JKuznicki Aha, I'd heard a bit about Car Thing -- what's it like?
(DIR) Post #ARPkhdHqXSmE1Qeh2O by ike@im.im
2023-01-07T22:59:03Z
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@clive @JKuznicki I like it. Works as advertised, and they’ve brought the price down. I have two kids in college, both driving cars with Bluetooth but not modern Bluetooth. (No CarPlay, etc.)I got them each a Car Thing, just as a safety issue. (Also got them dash mounts for the phones, to use navigation. Keeps it out of their hands while driving) But yeah - I’ve bought three of them.
(DIR) Post #ARPl2OHJXG41YTIwO8 by Setok@attractive.space
2023-01-07T23:03:27Z
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@clive @uastronomer I utterly hate voice commands. They interrupt my thought process, and my music, and just feel dorky, especially as they are often not understood. But I have also been in many dangerous situations due to having to fiddle with the Tesla touch screen.
(DIR) Post #ARPl8Qc9lKxaXPvrnc by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-07T23:03:44Z
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@ike @JKuznicki Cool to know! I suspect that after my existing 2010 Hyundai Elantra bites the dust -- which might be never, because it only has 66K on it and I don't drive it much -- I will stop owning a car and just rentals/ride-hail and, locally, tons 'o cyclingBut! If I ever got a new car I'd want to either avoid a totalizing touchscreen, or if that's unavoidable, augment it with things like Car Thing
(DIR) Post #ARPlFzQKjzAsWZ0Xz6 by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-07T23:05:37Z
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@Setok @uastronomer Ah, damn, that sucks to hearI admire the overall engineering of the Tesla cars otherwise, and the amazing network of charging stations the company has made ...I wish they hadn't leaned so hard into the touchscreens
(DIR) Post #ARPlNY7m7g08Aovqfg by jamal@mastodon.au
2023-01-07T23:06:25Z
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@clive apart from speed for drivers it’s also about length of distraction. On my traditional dash cars when I need to stay focused on the road I use dash buttons by “feel” without using my eyes. I know my cars so I remember button layout. Only better software is voice but as of 2023 no car has nailed that feature yet.
(DIR) Post #ARPleHjYJfO2GHaA1g by atthenius@fediscience.org
2023-01-07T23:07:42Z
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@clive I don’t own a car anymore (yeah NYC), but I do rent.My least favorite digital upgrade: the parking break button & LED light indicator. Its apparently a step above the touchscreen according to this article, but a step down from mechanical brakes imho.The old hand brakes of stick-shifts, or push-in foot-breaks, were themselves an unequivocal indication of ‘securing’ the car from moving. The new little teeny lighted buttons, not so much. EGWith the engine is off… will your car roll?
(DIR) Post #ARPluJR9kdHyB4cVM0 by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-07T23:13:21Z
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@atthenius What I wonder about the parking break button is, what do you do if your car dies when it's rolling?Not hypothetical for me: Last spring, while driving my electrical-system-ailing 2010 Hyundai to the dealership for service, the electrics *totally* collapsed -- and, while going about 45 MPH heading east on the BQE, the engine cut out, power steering cut out, and the brakes diedI gradually eased the parking brake on to pull safely to a stop
(DIR) Post #ARPn8mldb9gv9VfIzg by atthenius@fediscience.org
2023-01-07T23:27:05Z
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@clive Agh! That’s scary (glad you HAD a parking break!) I keep thinking about that poor kid who played Chekov (Anton Yelchin) — his story goes through my mind every time I put a rental into park.
(DIR) Post #ARPoVTu20DSRG8yebA by CelloMomOnCars@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T23:41:56Z
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@clive @atthenius Wow!This is why every car needs a hand operated hand brake. Glad yours has one.<adds "must have hand brake" in requirements for my future EV>
(DIR) Post #ARPoew5eZUwfHsvD4S by GregStolze@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T23:43:37Z
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@clive Yeah, I think touchscreens are bullshit tho. And I say that from a household with one touchscreen car and one non.
(DIR) Post #ARPowOXO3g2EREDdWC by Thad@brontosin.space
2023-01-07T23:47:18Z
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@clive There was an episode of Strange New Worlds where the blind engineer was using a touchscreen, and I thought "I guess they've got better haptics in the future."#StarTrek
(DIR) Post #ARPrjNwjFFughbYoWO by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T00:18:36Z
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@GregStolze Yep, A/B tests are a good way to suss this out
(DIR) Post #ARPrqgdw832uiVFhce by arossp@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:07:05Z
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@GregStolze @clive This is a change we can (partly) blame regulations for. Government mandated backup cameras in new cars, beginning in 2018. This required that a large portion of the console be dedicated to a screen. Manufacturers then naturally used that space—which crowded out button space—for other things, as well. So the old no-screen-all-buttons interface is illegal for new automobiles.
(DIR) Post #ARPrqh8QIhQsF3W38q by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T00:19:19Z
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@arossp @GregStolze Aha, that's interesting!It makes sense, and that's a classic example of crappy knock-on consequences from an otherwise well-intentioned regulation
(DIR) Post #ARPrzlaB8LZ4dsp9Qe by gayfesh@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T23:57:11Z
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@Thad @clive there's an episode of Voyager where Tuvok has been blinded and he's able to still use his touchscreen. I think the ship's computer says something like "tactile mode activated" or something.
(DIR) Post #ARPrzm0lXUpdyLGNs0 by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T00:21:33Z
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@gayfesh @Thad Ah, interesting!A few years back I wrote a column for Wired about innovations in haptic interactions with screensThey had some fascinating techniques for making one's finger feel like it was touching raised surfaces on a flatscreenMaybe they mastered and commercialized it that timeline,heh
(DIR) Post #ARPsBQ8sfqK5cac3l2 by GregStolze@mastodon.social
2023-01-07T23:45:53Z
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@clive Then again, I'm a crusty old man who thinks electric windows are also BS.
(DIR) Post #ARPsBQZ76JJ4vwt0e8 by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T00:22:22Z
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@GregStolze There's a lot to commend to old-school manual windows!One less damn thing needing juice
(DIR) Post #ARPsHPgjH6q9x0IpWa by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T00:23:39Z
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@CelloMomOnCars @atthenius Heh, yesThere must be some models that retain a manual hand brake?Though I wonder if it's a fly-by-wire handbrake -- i.e. no actual cable, just a sensor that emits commands to the brakes ... and thus can die if/when the electricity dies?
(DIR) Post #ARPsQGeEFw2wWEM5Lc by arossp@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T00:25:07Z
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@clive @GregStolze I suspect we'd have ended up in a similar spot eventually, in the absence of the mandate, because touch screen are getting crammed into anything. But, if nothing else, it means a market for the alternative can't really develop, even if there's sufficient interest.
(DIR) Post #ARPsx0lsJ2LwpnXr6G by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T00:31:44Z
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@atthenius yes!
(DIR) Post #ARPsxxk9371fjWBo5w by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T00:31:13Z
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@arossp @GregStolze yeah
(DIR) Post #ARPyi8BH4fStCEiH8C by GregStolze@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T01:36:48Z
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@clive Also preferable if you go off the bridge or through the ice and submerge. You can't open a car door against that pressure! You have to lower the window, but I don't exactly trust WET ELECTRONICS.I had to buy a specialized hammer.
(DIR) Post #ARPzHrXsOyeu1lK6Nc by badgergravling@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T01:43:14Z
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@clive Not surprising at all - and it's worth remembering car manufacturers spent 50+ years optimising manual controls, whereas many people still find modern touchscreens and UI fiddly even when they're not trying to drive at the same time...I've had the same old car for 10+ years and could probably do most of those tasks with my eyes shut thanks to muscle memory...
(DIR) Post #ARPzPg86jFDywHzs36 by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T01:44:39Z
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@badgergravling Same here -- I bought a used 2010 Hyundai Elantra in 2013, had it for 10 years, so I could now reach to all the knobs and levers blindfolded
(DIR) Post #ARPzVWBqb5JHqiWy8W by atthenius@fediscience.org
2023-01-08T00:46:17Z
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@clive @CelloMomOnCars Well THAT is enough to give one a healthy dose of paranoia. Is THIS a mechanical brake or just an electric semblance of one. ? (!!!)
(DIR) Post #ARPzVWxLkTJ8E2kuB6 by CelloMomOnCars@mastodon.social
2023-01-08T01:03:06Z
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@atthenius @clive One way to find out: google "how to fix hand brake on xyz model".If it tells you to connect the car to a diagnostic computer it's a brake-by-wire type.If it spits out youtubes with dudes that have the aura of my dad, patiently explaining where to apply your socket wrenches and screwdrivers, then you know this is what you want. 😎
(DIR) Post #ARPzVXXVa2EO2BfmXQ by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T01:45:33Z
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@CelloMomOnCars @atthenius Heh, yes yes
(DIR) Post #ARPzaw4hmlF5Zrm0eW by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T01:45:10Z
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@GregStolze yep, good point!
(DIR) Post #ARQF0TARNrz4lR5c5A by allenstenhaus@oddballs.vip
2023-01-08T04:39:17Z
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@clive I've been a DoorDash driver for two years. I am intimately familiar with the app on my phone, how it works, & what needs to be pressed where. My eyes are off the road far longer, in part because bumps cause me to tap the wrong part of the screen. That never happens with physical buttons. In fact, I made a point of making sure my stereo has physical buttons for that reason.I have no doubt that study is correct.
(DIR) Post #ARQFag3evzV1AWBOhE by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T04:45:57Z
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@allenstenhaus Ugh, yeah, that makes total senseI never come closer to crashing than when I need to adjust the GPS on my phone while I'm drivingHonestly I probably shouldn't, I should pull aside and do it
(DIR) Post #ARQHEUjOZBMdZoFr4i by boby_biq@toot.community
2023-01-08T05:04:21Z
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@clive I’m driving a 2015 Volvo with no touchscreen but half of the functions can be adjusted from the steering wheel too, it seems like the functions they mention are non essential to adjust quick while driving - also as you mentioned, to be familiar with the UI makes many things quicker. - for a month I drove a Skoda Octavia with touchscreen, didn’t matter much. For me Bluetooth and CarPlay is a must and radio volume buttons/up/hang up on the steering wheel too.
(DIR) Post #ARQKXUM8U8onmH7kPY by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T05:41:25Z
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@boby_biq Wheel-mounted controls seem great! My car is older but the cruise control is wheel-mounted, and using it is like second nature
(DIR) Post #ARQPh6QumgxgFTlN0i by brbcoding@indieweb.social
2023-01-08T06:38:44Z
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@clive I can't tell you how much I hate this dumb touchscreen-all-the-things trend in modern cars. It's done in the name of cost-cutting without any thought to how it might affect safety, and marketed to us as "futuristic". One of the few who have deliberately kept physical controls are Mazda, and it's part of the reason why they are a step above others in driving dynamics.
(DIR) Post #ARQS8X10GE0wQ0qkds by boby_biq@toot.community
2023-01-08T07:06:30Z
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@clive you must try a car with volume controls/ phone controls on the wheel, it’s fantastic. Having the speaker with Bluetooth combined with the controls made such a great difference (for me).(Yeah I love my car, unfortunately, I can go on about this forever so I gradually buzz off now 🤪)
(DIR) Post #ARQTFkiHpVH2sr6PLc by ev@fosstodon.org
2023-01-08T07:18:47Z
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@clive I often drive my EV with gloves on to cut down on heating, give me more range. My Bolt has buttons for almost everything but the seat heater, so I have to take off a glove to make it work:( The steering wheel heater has a button tho:) I like a nice mix of controls, with true buttons and beefy dials, and the Bolt has all this almost right. Mostly I like the UI, and the CarPlay integration is excellent.
(DIR) Post #ARQXanS5F4s5H8oVUm by Coocho@lingo.lol
2023-01-08T08:06:57Z
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@clive 👀 *when you realize that your 2006 car, the most advanced one you’ve ever owned, doesn’t count as a “modern car” anymore*
(DIR) Post #ARR1J9Mw0vqKf6uI0u by indigojo@mastodon.online
2023-01-08T13:40:35Z
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@clive @ShaulaEvans I've driven trucks with some essential features such as headlights on touch screens; it does take longer, because there are multiple menus to navigate (because the touch screen is multi function) and because the knobs were in a familiar place. IMHO, it more serves manufacturer convenience and "looks new" without being more (or as) functional.
(DIR) Post #ARR7g6OhpM0Tpd3xvE by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T14:51:59Z
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@ShaulaEvans @indigojo Yeah, that “looks new” thing is good for marketing I bet
(DIR) Post #ARR7tJMCxFdzn3C2Ea by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T14:52:36Z
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@Coocho Lol yeah My 2010 Hyundai isn’t either I guess
(DIR) Post #ARR81Y2MG8ORdSptjs by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T14:54:45Z
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@ev That’s great! How much driving without the heat extend the range, would you estimate?
(DIR) Post #ARR89INCNgGtN6HJrc by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T14:56:32Z
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@boby_biq LolI probably won’t get a car after my existing one dies, since I live in New York and drive it infrequently (primarily for intercity trips) I’m probably going to go back to just renting a car for long trips But that means I can try to make sure I rent a model with those wheel controls!
(DIR) Post #ARR8FEy7x2TCYCO0W0 by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T14:57:16Z
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@brbcoding yeah, I read a story about how Mazda is very intentional about that, based on their own research
(DIR) Post #ARRLGXsQR5Wet1fiE4 by ev@fosstodon.org
2023-01-08T17:24:10Z
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@clive I’d say I gain around 10-15% back. I feel like I lose around 20-30% of my ideal temp range in the winter with heat on, so every bit helps. I think the Bolt is the last EV still using resistance heating instead of a heat pump, and all other GM cars now use them, so future drivers won’t be as concerned. I don’t have charging at home, so I have to be a bit more creative in the way I delegate my electrons:)
(DIR) Post #ARRMbxS0eDVWEp5e6a by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T17:39:13Z
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@ev Aha, interesting!Were I to get a new car after my used 2010 Hyundai Elantra dies -- not sure I will (I might just stick with car-hire and rentals) I'd want to get an electric, so these questions intrigue me
(DIR) Post #ARRj8k2pi5ARCwLray by ev@fosstodon.org
2023-01-08T21:51:42Z
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@clive I vote for no car! My favorite living arrangement was when I lived next to the Eastern Market metro stop in DC and didn’t need a car. If you weren’t on a metro stop, I didn’t visit your establishment (screw you, Georgetown). If you absolutely must have one and only one car, look at a plug-in hybrid with over 40 miles of EV range. That’ll handle 95% of most ppl’s driving and you can take trips without dealing with our disastrous fast charging networks.
(DIR) Post #ARRlBtBaNb6qKs4fAm by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-08T22:14:42Z
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@ev Yep, I've thought of plug-in hybrids -- the problem is I live in Brooklyn where you can't easily plug it in to my house: I'd have to a) get lucky enough to find the sport in front of my house free, and b) run a cord over the sidewalkToo bad, because I have solar panels that produce more than I can use right now, lolI cycle nearly everywhere, so it'll likely be no-car (and probably a really nice lightweight ebike for my wife)
(DIR) Post #ARS2ZodKei7AO42zOC by ev@fosstodon.org
2023-01-09T01:29:32Z
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@clive Brooklyn complicates things for any kind of driver, lol. My favorite e-bike is the Brompton, which is perfect for the city, but not cheap. It’s extremely light for an e-bike at 32lb, and the Brompton fold takes less than 30 seconds. Here’s me putting my non-electric in the back of my Bolt. https://youtu.be/V5g3qmcxAUE
(DIR) Post #ARS2x3EKYFKgJoQryq by clive@saturation.social
2023-01-09T01:32:33Z
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@ev yeah, Brooklyn does indeed do that, hehI've read about the Brompton -- it looks amazing!