Post ARAGuuY46CZhFu3fZQ by ben@mastodon.adida.net
(DIR) More posts by ben@mastodon.adida.net
(DIR) Post #AR7F6vJmHTkvjc60DA by J12t@social.coop
2022-12-30T00:04:27Z
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@ben has an interesting idea: native support for the #Fediverse in #Firefox.He's glossing over a few of the details -- like what's actually "in" the browser vs backend infrastructure that Mozilla would have to run -- but his use cases are good ones. Maybe the best way to think of it would be "merge a dedicated Mastodon client" into Firefox. Server still required. I am all for it. Except: can Mozilla pull something off that's not the browser? Track record is spotty. https://benlog.com/2022/12/28/firefox-should-become-the-best-freaking-fediverse-app/
(DIR) Post #AR7F6vianDbayZhotE by john@sauropods.win
2022-12-30T00:41:39Z
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@J12t @ben I'm pretty hopeful about Mozilla putting its weight behind the Fediverse. They've been drifting a bit since they lost the browser war to Chrome, and this could be a great direction for them.
(DIR) Post #AR98fJnpRWyy9hWdii by hackbyte@friendica.utzer.de
2022-12-30T21:14:25Z
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@J12t @ben But why mastodon? It's the worst implementation of them all....
(DIR) Post #AR98fKF7o2ohWMIRGa by ben@mastodon.adida.net
2022-12-30T21:28:06Z
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@hackbyte @J12t Totally worthwhile discussion. Mozilla should absolutely evaluate if there is a better ActivityPub-compliant service they should run, augment, write, etc.Mastodon is probably a good starting point because of its popularity. But, totally worth considering others.
(DIR) Post #AR98fKiu1KdV0iEDgG by hackbyte@friendica.utzer.de
2022-12-30T21:50:56Z
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@ben @J12t Right, it for now makes the most popular entry point for a _lot_ of people.But then again, it is more or less a singular software in a sea of lots of others...My personal reason why i despise mastodon is. This weirdo post length limit, the fact that it actually filters out text formatting which you can use virtually everywhere else.. And it just can't threading.... Like, well just look at my friendica view on this thread: https://friendica.utzer.de/display/e1892e4b-9753319b27370c81-353a62c9It's a completely different world. ;)So in essence. Starting off with basic mastodon alike functionality could be nice. Building it up to a embedded fediverse messaging thing... sounds complex but could be way more nice. ;)The point from @webmink about thunderbird is valid too.In the long run. Having full browser capabilities within some sort of dedicated fediverse client could do some real good. Just starting with simple points like (getting rid of) all that JS stuff which is needed for the UI of most implementations... hhm...
(DIR) Post #AR98fL6eb1dQCNLBhY by ben@mastodon.adida.net
2022-12-30T21:58:58Z
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@hackbyte @J12t @webmink Strong disagree on the thunderbird idea. The tight web integration is the key use case. Not to mention that Thunderbird has effectively zero relevant users compared to Firefox.
(DIR) Post #AR98fLammzjnhpRFfU by webmink@meshed.cloud
2022-12-30T22:02:10Z
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@ben Setting aside the user-base for a moment, what is the web use-case you have in mind? ActivityPub is a message-based protocol carrying structured text and Thunderbird seems excellent for that while Firefox seems less-so.@hackbyte @J12t
(DIR) Post #ARA6BMyD638qXcvtRY by torresjrjr@qoto.org
2022-12-31T09:45:52Z
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@J12t @benTerrible idea. Should not happen.
(DIR) Post #ARA6GlULMjIo20XGts by J12t@social.coop
2022-12-31T09:46:48Z
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@torresjrjr @ben I like your reasoning. Wait… where did you put it?
(DIR) Post #ARA6fxQo6CaQJMtVFQ by captainepoch@stereophonic.space
2022-12-31T09:51:11.072415Z
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@torresjrjr @J12t @ben I agree, we already have too many clients for the Fediverse. Suggest other stuff more important.
(DIR) Post #ARA7ZCwS8JyWLL2daC by torresjrjr@qoto.org
2022-12-31T10:01:23Z
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@captainepoch @ben @J12tOh there are so many more problems.Privacy, anonymity, security, centralisation of the Fediverse, the proliferation of the Mastodon API and quirks in place of ActivityPub, inspiring proprietary browsers to do the same in order to embrace-extend-extinguish, the inevitable commercialisation of the theoretical Mozilla Fediverse instance, inevitable breaking changes when Firefox introduces their own "helpful" features... Firefox is a bloated, controlled-opposition browser. And it needs to remain at the very least a browser. Considering some kind of fedi integration is rediculous.Terrible idea and article (no offense).
(DIR) Post #ARA7g99mbW8WdCaM3k by torresjrjr@qoto.org
2022-12-31T10:02:38Z
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@captainepoch > @torresjrjr I agree, we already have too many clients for the Fediverse.And not enough server software!
(DIR) Post #ARA7lky7Rpa9LnnxC4 by torresjrjr@qoto.org
2022-12-31T10:03:40Z
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@J12t @benhttps://qoto.org/@torresjrjr/109607707185525264
(DIR) Post #ARA8FVbZ8OoAO8RUgq by captainepoch@stereophonic.space
2022-12-31T10:08:44.161501Z
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@torresjrjr Well, we already have Pleroma, Akkoma, Soapbox, Mastodon, Glitch, and who knows how many forks of them out there.I think we need better implementations in better languages, but not yet-another-activitypub-server software...
(DIR) Post #ARA9HiDnIUEY3EwDq4 by torresjrjr@qoto.org
2022-12-31T10:20:38Z
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@captainepochWe can still greatly benefit from more server software. There's way too much Mastodon. Reinforcing interoperability with multiple implementations is good.
(DIR) Post #ARABWFFtTULYSyyg40 by captainepoch@stereophonic.space
2022-12-31T10:45:23.741822Z
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@torresjrjr There's too much mastodon because it's being promoted more than Pleroma. We should try to do a better job there, to be honest...
(DIR) Post #ARACCyE2fPr46LU6S0 by torresjrjr@qoto.org
2022-12-31T10:53:24Z
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@captainepochTrue.From personal experience, I've had people look at the two servers and said "Mastodon looks more official and put together". Pleroma has that kind of Y2K web design. So most people are drawn to Mastodon, even if they're equally capable.Of course, Pleroma ships with the Mastodon frontend, but many don't know that, and a novice won't understand that.
(DIR) Post #ARADfWVWttaGUIqL7w by newt@stereophonic.space
2022-12-31T11:09:23.436881Z
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@torresjrjr @captainepoch most of my friends use pleroma and misskey. The fact that you are on a mastodon instance is entirely your fault.
(DIR) Post #ARAGuuY46CZhFu3fZQ by ben@mastodon.adida.net
2022-12-31T11:46:08Z
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@torresjrjr @captainepoch @J12t Sounds like you don't like the idea. That said, your reasoning isn't really a reasoning, it's some vague opposition to anything that isn't small, artisanal non profit, spec-pure implementation of the fediverse.That's naive. The gravitational force of a growing fediverse will cause all of the things you mention. A large player like Mozilla that understands the open web is a very good way to prevent the worst of natural tendencies and network effects.
(DIR) Post #ARAKo7JcdI1MdpJnpg by torresjrjr@qoto.org
2022-12-31T12:29:43Z
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@ben @J12t > some vague opposition to anything that isn't small, artisanal non profit, spec-pure implementation of the fediverse.Yes, I believe it's important the Fediverse players are largely non-profit and spec-pure, with slow, careful improvements to ActivityPub and the network.Fee-based models are OK though. I pay for my email server, and would for my fedi.> That's naive.I think it's right, and a good ideal to aim at. It's also largely the current form of the Fediverse, so I disagree.I won't support another "kinda federated twitter but in practice usuable and centralised and dictated by Mozilla proxies".> The gravitational force of a growing fediverse will cause all of the things you mention.That's not a certainty. And if it was, I'd rather it happen slowly, and I think Firefox integration would accelerate those problems.> A large player like Mozilla that understands the open web is a very good way to prevent the worst of natural tendencies and network effects.I'm not convinced. And what about Chrome being inspired to EEE?I don't want large players. There's no need for large players. There's no reason for Firefox to adopt such a responsibility, especially when they can make things worse, intentionally or by accident.I trust random FLOSS volunteers, because they mostly have the same interests and vision for the network. And that's not naive, I argue.
(DIR) Post #ARALZTw6LbJwPNtzQe by ben@mastodon.adida.net
2022-12-31T12:38:17Z
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@torresjrjr @J12t I think you misunderstand how networked applications grow and evolve through inherent incentives and network effects, not because of any single choice one (even large) organization makes.I strongly recommend reading the Master Switch, by Tim Wu.If the Fediverse keeps growing, there will be significant centralization, significant commercialization, etc. All to serve very good reasons for millions of users. Google and others won't need excuses to get in the game.
(DIR) Post #ARAMh9nHDh88D0zwRM by torresjrjr@qoto.org
2022-12-31T12:50:53Z
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@ben @J12t I like to think I'm aware of those phenomemon, and that we still have hope. Oh well.I also see you have experience with Mozilla and software engineering. And your work on elections and voting.works looks great, btw!> I strongly recommend reading the Master Switch, by Tim Wu.Thank you!
(DIR) Post #ARASQAseWeyuNhnXDE by ben@mastodon.adida.net
2022-12-31T13:55:02Z
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@torresjrjr @J12tHope is good, i could well be wrong.I would just argue that sprinkling in some realism about how things evolve is the best way to ensure the core values you care about are kept. It won't be through best behavior by all, it will be through ruthless fighting for those values, finding the right allies, even if imperfect.