Post AQkZFoSUgL739aBZQW by sehe@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by sehe@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #AQkZ4H6SM9e0WBNNJI by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T02:07:00Z
2 likes, 4 repeats
The group of people who are trying to divide the fediverse seem to have reached a new low.. They have a tool that lists how many instances block a particular instance, but it is highly manipulative.For starters it is hand curated.. so they exclude blocks against their own instances and only includes instances they actually dislike.Worse yet they curate a list ordered by "most blocked".. problem is they use the number of instances that block. They game the system by having large number of single-user instances. So instances in the top 50 may only be blocked by a few hundred people but still appear as if the blocks are significant....This is why we need transparency, its why we need the https://UFoI.org#mastoadmin #fediblock @ufoi #UFoI
(DIR) Post #AQkZFoSUgL739aBZQW by sehe@fosstodon.org
2022-12-19T02:09:05Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @ufoi Nothing screams #transparency like "Members of the UFoI will be temporarily hidden until the last stage of launch"
(DIR) Post #AQkZLJxSzjVKIOIcXw by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T02:10:05Z
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@sehe why would you care about the list before the members are actually officially members?The last stage votes the members into the UFoI and it becomes active... before that there is no list to share, just tentative instances wanting to join.@ufoi
(DIR) Post #AQkZrFS3HmrBaKpUTQ by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2022-12-19T02:15:45.715387Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
It should Also be noted that the #UFOI isn’t launched yet. Once it’s launched, I assume all members will be public.
(DIR) Post #AQkZt5QZWdPT4l0uzg by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T02:16:11Z
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@realcaseyrollins yup@ufoi @sehe
(DIR) Post #AQkZtR1VEWQe3NSCyO by sehe@fosstodon.org
2022-12-19T02:16:10Z
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@freemo Because it seems a highly political endeavour.For example, in your own toot you use wordings like "curated" and "they game" and "they exclude". Many points I am highly sympathetical with. But they could well have been phrased without adversarial affect ("this system of hand-curated lists can skew and also be gamed").You can probably see why I'm skeptical that your initiative is any better *in particular* because it seems to expressly require a... curated set of members to bootstrap.
(DIR) Post #AQkZvILgSJu1jGmRtY by sehe@fosstodon.org
2022-12-19T02:16:35Z
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@freemo I might be sniffing the wrong scent here, in which case consider it community feedback to improve communication.
(DIR) Post #AQka6BM2ngGRDr8lfc by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T02:18:34Z
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@sehe The acceptance into the UFoI will be transparent, transparency is key. If you think the system is gamed you can see it and it will be in the open. So you will be able to judge that yourself.We also encourage other federations to form and federations will either endorse enachother or not.
(DIR) Post #AQkfc7UZCDkaHSAvFg by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-19T03:20:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo The last bit of this (3/3) on the #BirdSite is missing. Either you didn't send it, or it was removed, or ... "something." It's all cool though, I knew to find you here. :)
(DIR) Post #AQko1wxxkjqonVkjIG by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T04:54:41Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@freemo @ufoi I'm extremely new here but if one of the oft-repeated criticisms of what seems to be some kind of network of admins with a shared strategy of cooperative moderation that has gradually become quite large and influential (the name of which that I haven't yet clearly been able to identify - fedifence? fediblock?) is that it creates a walled garden and as such is anathema to the free and open principles of the fediverse, proposing a competing system of large coordinated cooperative moderation strategy but it's better because it's run how i like it not how they like it will likely result in an outcome that is not appreciably different.
(DIR) Post #AQko9uAQ2lkMQuN8ee by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T04:56:06Z
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@mediocreape The big difference with the UFoI is we dont deal in block lists, we deal with an allow list.. So its about creating communities not splitting them.@ufoi
(DIR) Post #AQkoK1GoUOPjMJBbAe by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T04:57:58Z
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@freemo @ufoi @freemo @ufoi The difference appears to me to be one of opinion rather than function. The result is still a clearly defined 'inside' and an 'outside'.
(DIR) Post #AQkoQ7lNGHSdEYOLHk by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T04:59:02Z
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@mediocreape in that regard its an open-club anyone can join and the approval process is transparent. The rules by which one can join and are judged on are elucidated. So it is easy to judge if the cooperative follows its own rules and is truely acting in good faith....Functionally a pretty big diffrence IMO.@ufoi
(DIR) Post #AQkoajTjtIKJ6PCY9Q by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T05:00:59Z
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Again, that appears a formal difference rather than a functional difference. There will be a garden, and there will be a wall around it.
(DIR) Post #AQkpFk1elHrwficWw4 by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T05:01:47Z
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apologies, this train of thought continues thusly...
(DIR) Post #AQkpFkdwSwUgaSX6bw by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T05:04:26Z
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There is nothing inherently right or wrong with promoting this proposition as a design for a better walled garden but positioning it as an alternative to walled gardens appears disingenuous.
(DIR) Post #AQkpFlK7w6EohIGnMe by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T05:05:17Z
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(end of thought-train, all change please, your patience appreciated)
(DIR) Post #AQkpFlxpYTzsgQqVFY by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T05:06:29Z
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yet another apology, I appear to have dropped the @freemo and @ufoi tags off my response. The training wheels remain a little longer it seems.
(DIR) Post #AQkpFmZlHSL2a4anNA by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T05:08:21Z
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@mediocreape the diufference is that it is a wall with windows and an open gate... while there is some similarlity (an association), beyond that it is very different.. The fact that the difference is "formal" just means there are measures in place to help ensure those measures are executed, which doesnt make them less functional.
(DIR) Post #AQksns3JiybHH6MZLE by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T05:48:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo I think you misunderstand form versus function and are inadvertently arguing my case for me. I argue that the function of a walled garden is 'demarcate a space using a structure delimiting an enclosed inside and relative unenclosed outside'. The figurative windows and walls are indeed formal rather than functional, and holding the opinion that these formal addition make the garden more or less transparent according to what appears to be a 'publicly-accessible documentation' centric model of transpsparency do not change the essential walled garden.
(DIR) Post #AQksxA1oGDdxdE5Uxc by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T05:49:50Z
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@mediocreape The transparency comes in the functional how... All votes are recorded on git, an immutable repository with distributed backup.. So it would be impossible to fake the history without a public record existing to invalidate it... So it **forces** transparency.
(DIR) Post #AQkvElkhSMsbShboGG by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T06:15:24Z
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@freemo yet again, building walled garden with a transparent wall is a formal, rather than functional difference, regardless of enforcement.I am reserving all judgement as to whether "your" or "their" walled garden is "better", so your arguments as to why it may be so aren't particularly relevant to this specific thread.My sole contention is that, based on personal observation, your proposal attracts a degree of ridicule and pushback by virtue of appearing to claim to "solve" the problem of walled gardens by implementing the problem differently. My recommendation is as simple as it is impossible; relinquish the oppositional mindset. Let "them" talk however they will of you. The difference of experience within your garden will be the only rebuttal of theirs you ever need to make.
(DIR) Post #AQlhvQo40Hz6kfaguO by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-12-19T12:14:21Z
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where do you get the notion that it's a walled garden, though? joining and leaving is allowed at will, and it's not like blocking those who are outside is mandatory or even encouraged, they just don't necessarily share the same ground rules and processes to reinforce cooperative federation. what is this wall you allude to?
(DIR) Post #AQlhvRGmHWxABj1cfI by aebrockwell@qoto.org
2022-12-19T14:43:18Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@lxo @mediocreape @freemo @lxo makes a good point here. I think the "alternate walled garden" analogy is misleading. #ufoi is an agreement between gardeners that they will not build walls between themselves.
(DIR) Post #AQlhwsXWNUEF3QXkcS by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-19T15:21:02Z
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@aebrockwell Well put, I like that@lxo @mediocreape
(DIR) Post #AQmuv8eqyMjl1kQw7s by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T22:22:43Z
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@aebrockwell @lxo @freemo As a cooperative code toward moderation, it is an agreement that gardeners will not build walls within the walls of the larger garden.
(DIR) Post #AQmuv96rIF8eQbXImG by mediocreape@qoto.org
2022-12-19T22:31:49Z
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@aebrockwell @lxo @freemo The issue i have here is the painting of this group's moderation as inherently good due to an adherence to a ritual strucutre of centralised public documentation, another group's moderation as inherently ungood due to not adhering to that. It is a microcosmic example of the same mechanism by which western knowledge is reified as 'true' by mere virtue of being the product of western knowledge. However, based on the origin of the proposal in an academic instance, and the motto of said instance, this is practically inevitable.
(DIR) Post #AQmuv9iR2XCEJ97JLc by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-20T05:21:15Z
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@mediocreape Thats not what makes it good. What makes it good is a track record of being good proven out by transparency which adheres to good precepts and is held accounable for doing so @aebrockwell @lxo
(DIR) Post #AQmw3VZ1nBUmL8GOHY by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-20T05:34:00Z
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@mediocreape The argument is you cant call it a walled garden when the entrance is free to anyone to leave or exit and the process to do so is garunteed transparent@aebrockwell @lxo
(DIR) Post #AQndrvqIewL8LjdHU0 by aebrockwell@qoto.org
2022-12-20T13:44:55Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo @mediocreape @lxo There's an interesting (but paywalled) editorial board opinion piece discussing social media platform problems at https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/12/19/elon-musk-twitter-destroyed-fix/I reference it because, buried in after all the back-story is the following statement, which I like, and I think is also relevant in the context of this thread."What matters is that they’re set up to get it right, in aggregate, according to the public commitments they’ve made.That starts with something as simple as platforms committing to transparency, "This lines up nicely with the intent of the UFoI.
(DIR) Post #AQnh5x2pHpohzhrtCK by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-20T14:21:05Z
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@aebrockwell |Transparency is the most important feature of the UFoI, its the only reason all the other promises can work at all@mediocreape @lxo