Post AQbOdaPphHS8dER2S8 by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AQbKyvvUW5jJbuAOFk by jeff@newsie.social
2022-12-14T14:48:29Z
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The number of servers — or “instances” — blocking the journalism server, journa.host, has nearly quadrupled since the Columbia Journalism Review first reported on the issue in last month.See:https://thedesk.net/2022/12/mastodon-journa-host-lgbt-instance-server-blocked-170/#socialmedia #mastodon#journalismPS. You should follow Matt Keys Here: @matthewkeys.
(DIR) Post #AQbKywOYm0yx43lbYu by abid@microblog.club
2022-12-14T14:53:55.289023Z
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@jeff madness, i guess... Instead of trying to find solutions, at the end most instances could finish as not-federated wall gardens (like Trump's)... Just my $0.02
(DIR) Post #AQbKywxefX3SouBdGS by mike@thecanadian.social
2022-12-14T15:05:35Z
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@abid @jeff This is how Mastodon could potentially eat itself.
(DIR) Post #AQbKyxTujarKQxHOXw by jeff@newsie.social
2022-12-14T15:09:35Z
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@mike @abid Yes and no.See Gilmore's Law "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it"The lesson take-aways for me are :- Creating "gated elitist communities" on the fediverse is only marginally better than corporate social media like FB and Twit.- Journalists and news orgs should be on their own branded instances sooner, rather than later.
(DIR) Post #AQbNRyOyaiv1auvuTY by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-14T15:44:26Z
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@jeff This an incidents like it exemplify the need for https://UFoI.org and reassures me that we are on the right track.
(DIR) Post #AQbNWnHXMXd2YQkgtM by Howard@mastodon.lifebystills.co.uk
2022-12-14T14:53:57Z
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@jeff I also have a journa.host account, but when I foresaw this happening due to some of the behaviour of some members, I decided to create my own server as I didn't want to be investing a lot of time into an account based on a blocked server.The thing which gets me also is when I tried explaining to other members that their actions were likely to get journa.host blocked, they just ignored or blocked me.I hate to do this, but this is a big "I told you so" moment.
(DIR) Post #AQbNWnrhC6YIMZfZFg by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-14T15:45:17Z
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@Howard What actions? So far I havent seen anything from them to suggest they should be blocked.@jeff
(DIR) Post #AQbNrHZsQuuWJ56GnY by jeff@newsie.social
2022-12-14T15:49:01Z
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@freemo Interesting project.However would like more transparency on who the current members are.Not even entertaining considering it without that.
(DIR) Post #AQbO6nogqsMadbQgRk by Howard@mastodon.lifebystills.co.uk
2022-12-14T15:51:49Z
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@freemo @jeff From what I observed myself, there was the whole debate about adding CW tags which many were really against and claimed it was "censorship".Sure, people are free not to use CW tags, but don't complain then if people who prefer you to block you.My perspective was not necessarily saying blocking was deserved or not, but simply an observation that blocking would likely happen, which is why I decided to pay for my own server and invest time in my own account on my own server.
(DIR) Post #AQbO82q6U0FJWHgOq8 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-14T15:52:02Z
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@jeff Yes the way it works right now is members are only tentative, the names are kept secret until launch to mitigate harassment (people are trying to stop it before it launches).. It is also for boot strapping.Right now members will remain secret as we publicly discuss and refine bylaws. Right before launch all members will be revealed to eachtother and then members can report any problematic members (and/or leave themselves).. the remaining members get voted in and thent he list made public.We originally had the names public.
(DIR) Post #AQbOEXqO7avfPruojY by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-14T15:53:13Z
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@Howard I've actually never seen a server blocked for not using CW... even 100K plus servers usually dont have CW rules and arent usually blocked. @jeff
(DIR) Post #AQbOda257aSDRZK4Qq by punkscience@linernotes.club
2022-12-14T15:55:46Z
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@jeffThis is baffling to me. Why would you block a whole journalism instance? Instance blocking is a threat to the integrity of Mastodon as a reliable service. @matthewkeys @freemo
(DIR) Post #AQbOdaPphHS8dER2S8 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-14T15:57:40Z
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@punkscience The toxic blocking shit is out of hand lately... I tried to create the UFoI, simply a bunch of servers that promise not to suspend eachother and promise to keep a shared code of ethics... some people are blocking whole instances just for wanting that, its absurd.. which ironically is why it was created.@jeff @matthewkeys
(DIR) Post #AQbOgGoN2diOhPBykK by Howard@mastodon.lifebystills.co.uk
2022-12-14T15:58:14Z
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@freemo @jeff There were certainly concerns from within journa.host in the beginning which linked the use of CW, or rather the lack of use, with being blocked. And it was the attitude of some choosing it as a hill to die on which I thought could have resulted in more blocks happening.Although there are obviously other reasons too for journa.host being blocked. Like I said, just what I foresaw may happen hence I decided to build my own server.
(DIR) Post #AQbOo1C2zdrUZpxfI8 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-14T15:59:38Z
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@Howard Honestly the fedi has turned pretty nasty and toxic since the twitter influx... I am not surprised people have gotten so crazy about it they are blocking instances just for not using CW... in my 5+ years ont he fedi this is depressing to see.@jeff
(DIR) Post #AQbUOLjoaN9wUUtozA by Howard@mastodon.lifebystills.co.uk
2022-12-14T17:02:13Z
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@freemo @jeff What genuinely surprised me was that the CW function was genuinely considered a sensible hill to die on. I didn't quite understand why it was so "controversial" to some.
(DIR) Post #AQcRZeCSBCD4ELwyzA by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T04:05:15Z
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@Howard After having seen how toxic some in mastodon can be, demanding more and more from you under the threat of being suspended over increasingly insiignificant things I do kinda get the push back.I will CW over things that would get you trouble in work or images of violence that can be really harmful.. But I try not to go too crazy with it either.@jeff
(DIR) Post #AQcYjl1sLHYzzDlpoW by Howard@mastodon.lifebystills.co.uk
2022-12-15T05:25:37Z
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@freemo @jeff I just treat it like a headlining function to be fair. I rather like it and I have found myself CWing all of my posts lol.I wouldn't want a news website for for me to read every article it had, as I choose what I want to read by headline. So that's kind of the approach I'm taking with it.
(DIR) Post #AQcYrKY0gUwKAhPcW0 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T05:26:59Z
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@Howard I dont mind if people use iot, even if they use it a lot... but to suspend/b;ock someone or a server over it is an astonishing turn for the worst for the fedi.@jeff
(DIR) Post #AQcZS6t6QyY2WMoew4 by Howard@mastodon.lifebystills.co.uk
2022-12-15T05:33:38Z
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@freemo @jeff I wonder if I'm less bothered by this if I should be... Hmmm.This is the way I look at it...X does not like to the way Y behaves, even if others are in okay with Y. X has a choice to not associate with Y.It's not saying Y doesn't have a choice to do what Y wants. Just X doesn't want to see Y do what Y wants to do.If Y wants to associate with X, then Y will have to think whether to get opportunity cost of changing Y's behaviour is worth the association with X.
(DIR) Post #AQcZYha6v9NQ3u4lcG by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T05:34:48Z
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@Howard You humans make this shit so complicated :)@jeff
(DIR) Post #AQekZAvJJddIsOL97I by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-14T15:43:26Z
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@jeff @matthewkeys Someone creates a server designed for journalists with some sort of vetting process. Then other servers block that server for doing the things that journalists do: Looking for stories, building audiences, and occasionally publishing information and points of view that others disagree with. This kind of mentality will make it harder for Mastodon to compete as a space for public discourse.We can't have the benefits of the Fourth Estate without a little sunshine.
(DIR) Post #AQekZBSzIQZUYq62bo by DanBC@mastodon.social
2022-12-14T16:05:25Z
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@stanwise @jeff @matthewkeys Genuinely frustrating to see people with brand new accounts telling everyone how Mastodon should work instead of taking the time, making the effort, to understand how it does work.
(DIR) Post #AQekZCC0b2aGoT9zma by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-14T16:12:46Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys I don't know what to tell you except that it's genuinely frustrating to see others assume that people with new accounts know nothing about how online communities work. I guess I missed the sign stating there was a probationary period during which users' ideas are automatically considered invalid.
(DIR) Post #AQekZCfQpe7UHivUe0 by DanBC@mastodon.social
2022-12-15T17:25:15Z
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@stanwise @jeff @matthewkeys So far you've just said stuff that's been discussed pretty heavily in the past, and you've shown no awareness of those discussions. You're also not aware of why journa.host is being blocked which makes this convo a bit weird. You're pointing to trivialities and ignoring the big stuff. [1/2]
(DIR) Post #AQekZD75AqEnfTrZk8 by DanBC@mastodon.social
2022-12-15T17:27:17Z
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@stanwise @jeff @matthewkeys Virulant transphobic journos were joining journa.host, and people raised the alarm, and initially journa.host said they wouldn't ban until transphobia happened on Mastodon. That's fine, they can do that, but it means they're going to get rapidly defederated by other instances who need to protect their users. [2/2]
(DIR) Post #AQekZDel9dAzLvcTEe by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:09:10Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys You mean I didn’t illustrate any awareness of prior discussions in the four sentences I typed about the topic at hand while waiting for a meeting to start? I suppose I concede the point. You say I’m pointing to trivialities and ignoring the big stuff. I disagree, and the reason is that I believe whatever happened on Mastodon prior to Musk destroying Twitter matters less than what happens now. 1/
(DIR) Post #AQekZE4za69yfHtQ7k by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:09:55Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys Before, it was fine if Mastodon was a loosely connected series of gated communities, each one devoted to particular topics and enforcing certain behavioral norms. If the communities didn’t want to talk to each other anymore for whatever reason, it didn’t really matter. Mastodon was another Discord – a great place for forming homogenous, safe communities. However, it wasn’t very relevant. CNN wasn’t reporting on what public figures were writing on Mastodon. 2/
(DIR) Post #AQekZEbxbWX0JXJkVk by ceoln@qoto.org
2022-12-16T06:27:37Z
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@stanwise I'm honestly trying to figure out why I find this thread so completely annoying, and I think it's sentences like this: "Before, it was fine if Mastodon was a loosely connected series of gated communities, each one devoted to particular topics and enforcing certain behavioral norms."The implication is that this is no longer "fine", as if that is something you get to decide, and on further reading it turns out that the reason it isn't "fine" anymore, is that journalists might not swoop in heroically and cause Mastodon to become "relevant", where the standard of "relevance" is whether for instance CNN is reporting on what famous people are saying on Mastodon.I don't know if it's obvious to you why that attitude would be deeply repugnant to most people who use and like Mastodon. :) Perhaps it is, and that wasn't really the attitude you meant to convey. Or perhaps it isn't, in which case you don't really understand the people involved very well yet!@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys
(DIR) Post #AQekZF0m7GNfYUvZBo by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T06:45:26Z
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@ceoln @DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys Here's how this looks from the outside.Musk: Bans journalists for writing negatively about him.Everyone: That's nuts!Mastodon server: Bans tons of verified journalists because one of them linked to one of the few conservative columns at NYT.Everyone: Umm...OG Mastodon users: That's just how we roll.Everyone: So... how about we check out The Post?And that will be a shame because that place will be about the money.
(DIR) Post #AQekZFgxaQ7nfKfFwW by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:10:55Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys But now that Musk is destroying Twitter by ruining the verification system and giving a free pass to people who have harassed and threatened others, Twitter’s role as a marketplace of ideas is waning. It is losing relevance. That relevance originally grew, in part, due to the actions of journalists. 3/
(DIR) Post #AQekZHFjmbXOVTwXmy by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:11:38Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys Public figures showed up on Twitter, and then the journalists showed up both to report what was said on Twitter and also to spread their work to a growing audience. (That’s a public service, by the way, in a democracy. An informed public makes better decisions in the voting booth.) 4/
(DIR) Post #AQekZJ4p09ziACqr3I by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:12:12Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys Mastodon currently stands as a platform that could potentially perform the role that Twitter is abandoning. In my short weeks on this platform, the potential to perform this role seems to be met with near universal acclaim. People here are encouraging others to join. People are happy when public figures and respected journalists show up. People who come here seem to be happy to have a place that isn’t (and could never be) subject to Musk’s whims. I’m one of them. 5/
(DIR) Post #AQekZKKSLW5w2zAr3o by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:12:39Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys Given this new spotlight and new potential for growth, the norms about which servers get banned and why might need some re-evaluation. These norms aren’t rules, of course, so they only work if the people who run the major servers agree to them. 6/
(DIR) Post #AQekZLmUwk7UYFIlPM by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:13:04Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys If the growth in relevance is going to continue, Mastodon is going to need the support of the journalists. We need them to provide us with educational articles, and we need them to boost the discourse that takes place on Mastodon to new audiences. 7/
(DIR) Post #AQekZO5iMGgBiQJ8dc by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:13:33Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys Having a server that performs some sort of verification of journalists is a HUGE boost to Mastodon legitimacy. That’s a big deal. However, having network-wide norms that make it likely users of that server will be cut off from great swaths of Mastodon seriously undercuts the value of that journalism server. 8/
(DIR) Post #AQekZPS5IaARw5mW92 by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:14:10Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys Because I’ve worked in media, I feel pretty confident that journalists are going to abandon this place quickly if they can be cut off from significant portions of Mastodon users just for practicing journalism. (Believe it or not, providing a space for opposing viewpoints is key to journalism ethics.) 9/
(DIR) Post #AQekZQlyO7fe245ume by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:14:42Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys Asking journa.host admins to police the content of legitimate news outlets like the New York Times is simply not feasible, and it is simply unethical to punish all journalists on journa.host because the editors at the Times published an opinion column that some Mastodon users find disagreeable. Much of what we read in legitimate news outlets will be disagreeable. That’s part of covering all points of view. 10/
(DIR) Post #AQekZS7zLksKEdP0jo by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:15:02Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys . That’s just part of living in a democracy. It’s up to the editors at the Times to determine what meets their standards. It’s not up to journa.host to impose its standards on all news outlets. (I’d like to note here that this wasn’t the complaint I was originally responding to. I was instead responding to the complaints about journalist behavior in general which were listed in the article at the top of the thread.) 11/
(DIR) Post #AQekZTTeKhnQQ6Xp8i by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:15:23Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys So, if you want to cling to Mastodon’s tradition of banning whole servers over pretty minor issues in the name of protecting users, fine, but then Mastodon will remain what it has always been instead of growing into the platform so many people hope it will be. 12/
(DIR) Post #AQekZUfNuYmG6n2i4O by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:15:51Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys It seems that you think the more important issue here is protecting users from seeing anything they might think is harmful. However, I think it’s pretty obvious that banning other servers does very little to protect the users of your individual server, and banning entire journalism servers makes your users less informed. 13/
(DIR) Post #AQekZVtxJs1jwGrrQ8 by stanwise@newsie.social
2022-12-16T05:16:17Z
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@DanBC @jeff @matthewkeys I do not intend to trivialize the issue of poor behavior by racists, sexists, bigots, and nazis. However, I think journa.host is wisely leaving the job of policing off-Mastodon content to the leadership of the individual newsrooms, especially when they are widely recognized as legitimate news outlets. Something tells me that journa.host will get involved when its users start posting crap from Alex Jones and his ilk. 14/14