Post AQa7FflaG5iJtkf0AS by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
(DIR) More posts by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
(DIR) Post #AQa7FVEbPrOFEZ9WN6 by gregory@magpie.masto.host
2022-12-03T14:18:00Z
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The #Fediverse and #Mastodon are experiencing some recent growing pains. There is a risk that developments could lead to the network fracturing into walled gardens of individual communities that are isolated from each other. There are also people who want to assert centralized control over the network. These dangers are described and a bold solution is proposed here:https://ufoi.gitlab.io/constitution/united_federation_of_instances_proposal.pdfJoin the conversation by following @ufoi #UFoI #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonAdmin
(DIR) Post #AQa7FVlvPy2qtuk8JM by raboof@merveilles.town
2022-12-13T08:02:58Z
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@gregory @ufoi I'm not convinced. I'll admit I don't manage a fediverse instance, but from my experience in other online spaces, all this emphasis on "due process", "evidence" etc sounds good in theory, but breaks down quickly in practice as it gets abused by bad actors who have fun "technically not breaking the rules". It is also putting the burden on the wrong side imho. Requiring participants to federate with instances from certain lists seems problematic.
(DIR) Post #AQa7FWVIhGLDAdyN2O by raboof@merveilles.town
2022-12-13T08:13:04Z
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@gregory @ufoi "The Problem" describes "those who block an instance often demand every instance they federate block the same instances as them, and if they do not, then they get added to the suspend list as well".I agree such "transitive defederation" can be a problem when taken to extremes. To be honest I haven't really seen it happen "often" and without evidence, but possibly I wasn't paying attention.The solution would be simply to "stop doing that", though :)
(DIR) Post #AQa7FX2GigiEotOhQO by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-13T15:58:00Z
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@raboof@gregory @ufoiGood points in both posts. I've been here for a few years now and it's become clear to me that #Mastodon has zero chance of ever becoming a viable platform.I believe this is by design: there are half a dozen+ ways of silencing people. Zero ways of encouraging consensus.It's a system that's *designed* to be insular and foment extremism (as your world view is never challenged, only reinforced).
(DIR) Post #AQa7FYVjEds7OYBjyy by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-13T16:13:41Z
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@raboof @gregory @ufoiAs you say also, those instance "rules" aren't worth the bits they're written on.Even on the few instances not run by single individuals, the "rules" are simply ignored and the admins do not give any explanations.
(DIR) Post #AQa7Fa979gyGSzci0m by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-13T16:14:23Z
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@raboof @gregory @ufoiFor instance, my account simply disappeared from one well-known instance when I asked what exactly were the accusations against the new #Twitter. I'm not saying there was a causal link, it might just have been a software glitch, but there is no way of knowing since the admin does not reply to my requests for clarification.
(DIR) Post #AQa7FcY0E84FulHc5A by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-13T16:14:59Z
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@raboof @gregory @ufoiOn another well-known instance my account had been blocked for a while. I thought it was a glitch but when I queried it, turns out I had been blocked, apparently because someone disagreed with something I said and the admin did not even bother to check if a moderation report had any real basis other than "I don't like this opinion".
(DIR) Post #AQa7FeITioq1LC2FA8 by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-13T16:19:58Z
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@raboof @gregory @ufoiThat account was later unblocked but to this day it remains shadow banned, just because. 🤷There are also the examples of @Raspberry_Pi, with people being horrible to them because of one of their employees former career.Or the #skiffmail guy banned from a large instance despite breaking no rules. Ironically, he had to go to #twitter to bring attention to his case.
(DIR) Post #AQa7FflaG5iJtkf0AS by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-13T16:27:39Z
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@raboof @gregory @ufoi @Raspberry_PiI'm a big supporter of open protocols and interoperable solutions and I dislike silos and invasions of privacy, which is why I don't have social media accounts.But if this is the alternative, paying $8 to Twitter, Inc. starts to sound like an attractive option in comparison.
(DIR) Post #AQa7OhznL7p7PzcG48 by jstorrs@mastodon.world
2022-12-13T20:04:35Z
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@34a3cff1fb40 @raboof @gregory @ufoi @Raspberry_Pi The problem generally is that admins seek things that make life easier for admins and user pain is never truly an admin problem. Particularly when it's volunteer driven.Something like ufoi sounds good to admins because it addresses admin problems. For users ultimately admin remain judge, jury and executioner. Users have no teeth in the game.We're not even ad revenue here.
(DIR) Post #AQa7OiVLRp3ozqNSF6 by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T01:05:39Z
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@jstorrs@raboof @gregory @ufoi @Raspberry_Pi> The problem generally is that admins seek things that make life easier for adminsI fully understand that.The problem is when admins decide to do arbitrary block/bans affecting who their users can reach or who can reach them. I say it's a problem because it traps users into bubbles, as mentioned above.
(DIR) Post #AQa7Oj1bVsrgbtTDWa by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T01:05:56Z
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@jstorrs @raboof @gregory @ufoi @Raspberry_PiAnd why do admins do it? In part because it's just too easy to. #Mastodon pretty much expects you to solve every problem with a ban of some sort, rather than via engagement and cooperation.So instead of cultivating tolerance and mutual respect, it breeds antagonism and hatred. IMO at least.
(DIR) Post #AQa7OjdBGAvGUR3E5w by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-14T01:09:50Z
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@34a3cff1fb40 One thing i want to add is to the point that bad actors tend to game the system by "technically following the rules"... this is why the UFoI has a human element.. we can always change the rules or vote that someone is going against the rules despite technicalities... it is a slippery slope of course, which is why there is a 2/3rds vote needed to change the rules.. but the point is that there is a human element and not just cold hard rules.@jstorrs @raboof @gregory @ufoi @Raspberry_Pi
(DIR) Post #AQcn2nWEhzVgZIwdUm by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-14T02:23:19Z
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@jstorrs @34a3cff1fb40 @raboof @gregory @ufoi @Raspberry_Pi "Everybody wants to rule the world" --Tears for FearsWe saw this in online text games back in the day. We see this on Minecraft and any other popular game where anyone can start a server, invite their friends to be moderators, then open it to the public to lord their godling powers over lesser beings and mortals... DAMN NEAR EVERY FSCKIN' TIME. I run several game servers (only one at a time) whitelisted so I don't have to put up with staff abuse. Me, @mikmaqpeek, her adult son, and a very few close long-time friends. I'd rather not bother, but it is in self-defence against the very human nature you describe with Mastodon.I even considered starting an instance JUST so I wouldn't have to put up with that crap. I'm very glad I found @freemo before it came to that.If you really want to solve the problem, redo the protocol so setting up an "instance" is stupid easy, doesn't depend on a "mothership" of any sort, and let everyone be the godling they claim they want to be AND enjoy every last consequence of it... in full, good and hard. Mastodon, as everyone deemed unfit by the "we hate fascists so much we are fascist about it" group is finding out. Mastodon has several forms of "motherships" and you'd best kiss the ring if you want to play.Yeah thanks. Pass.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2oFbzHo2q2AsDo by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T02:40:55Z
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@Romaq@jstorrs @raboof @gregory @ufoi @Raspberry_Pi @mikmaqpeek @freemoNicely put. 🙂But the other part of the problem is that of insularity.Apparently #Twitter are rolling out something called "community notes" which looks kind of promising.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2owVPo7Kz4F852 by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-14T03:06:22Z
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@34a3cff1fb40In my opinion, the root problem at the core is allowing people to act like people without having to deal with the consequences of their behavior. With the text games (and Minecraft servers, or any other game server) the eventual consequence was an empty server nobody cares about. Unfortunately, it left lots of lost hopes and dreams as well as people's time along the way.If you don't allow mob rule, you will either have insularity or some form of elitism that governs. Getting rid of all the people on the social media platform solves the problem. It creates a new problem, a useless "social" media platform, but you can't have everything.I do have short term hope for the UFoI pact, so long as it recognizes the limitations of asking people to not act like people. It's a start, anyway.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2pPDh35OQ7g3pw by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T11:39:00Z
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@Romaq> If you don't allow mob rule, you will either have insularity or some form of elitism that governs.It's not either/or.In the army you work as a team with comrades of all opinions and walks of life.In healthy democracies, you negotiate and consensuate laws so that everyone's interests are protected.At work, you park your non relevant opinions at the door at try to get along with colleagues.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2po2Cmw3f5HsW0 by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T11:40:23Z
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@RomaqI don't know if having a system that rewards consensus and discourages division would work.But it's certainly worth a try.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2pxbdCak8llWQy by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T02:41:15Z
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@Romaq @jstorrs @raboof @gregory @ufoi @Raspberry_Pi @mikmaqpeek @freemoAIUI the idea is to provide context to potentially misleading messages by adding notes approved by a consensus of people that normally disagree with each other.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2qOC2LrJTECksK by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T11:42:19Z
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@RomaqThat doesn't mean that we can't have our own divergent opinions. It means that we also try to discover what we have in common, not just what we disagree on.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2r7vIKRFl3bH9c by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-14T12:30:04Z
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@34a3cff1fb40Which of course works fine so long as those in charge (the elites) don't have a problem with one's divergent opinion.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2rzo3zXYSAoJ8q by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T15:21:30Z
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@Romaq> Which of course works fine so long as those in charge (the elites) don't have a problem with one's divergent opinion.Just as an aside:It is perfectly possible to have a problem with someone's opinion and still allow it to stand, or even defend it, without sharing it.One just has to be professional and self disciplined about it.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2sOcZjODh8Q7ou by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-14T15:54:52Z
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@34a3cff1fb40 "... just have to be professional and self-disciplined about it."You are suggesting people not act like people? As in the way this whole mess made UFoI a thing?
(DIR) Post #AQcn2sqGuvVX4tMCv2 by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T17:29:21Z
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@Romaq> You are suggesting people not act like people? I don't think I understand, could you rephrase?> As in the way this whole mess made UFoI a thing?Was this because someone wanted to add qoto.org to the #Spamhaus like block list?
(DIR) Post #AQcn2tJh9X2kY97hmS by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-14T18:37:28Z
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@34a3cff1fb40"One just has to be professional and self-disciplined about it.""Professional and self-disciplined" behavior is outside of the human default unless there is a hand on one's wallet or a boot on their neck. In my view, this is exemplified by the Mastodon dev that took qoto.org off the list of instances for newbies to consider... the very list that led me to join qoto.org.You might see typical human behavior differently, but given my POV while I am often disappointed, I am rarely surprised.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2ti9gabpm0ZEuG by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T20:57:13Z
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@RomaqThanks for the clarification.> "Professional and self-disciplined" behavior is outside of the human default unless there is a hand on one's wallet or a boot on their neck. You might be right. Then again, we're a social species so I guess in many instances we do need an alpha individual to lead the group. I don't really have a problem with that, as a principle. Take the #Linux project, for instance.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2u8k5jsP6T0TLc by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T20:57:48Z
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@Romaq> In my view, this is exemplified by the Mastodon dev that took qoto.org off the list of instances for newbies to consider... the very list that led me to join qoto.org.Why did he take it off? A holier than thou sort of chap?Funnily enough, qoto.org is one instance where my login "disappeared" all of a sudden. 🙂
(DIR) Post #AQcn2uf09ngGiW6Ed6 by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T00:06:24Z
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@34a3cff1fb40@freemo would have the link to what he's documented about that. I'm currently on an errand unable to look it up. Freemo can also address the account issue.
(DIR) Post #AQcn2v70Tg5A7NCbHU by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T08:05:43Z
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@Romaq Disapeared how? I can look into that for you.@34a3cff1fb40
(DIR) Post #AQcn2vf2R9Ivov7mKG by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-14T20:58:22Z
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@Romaq> You might see typical human behavior differently, but given my POV while I am often disappointed, I am rarely surprisedTo be fair, I think I might have a more optimistic view than yours. Sadly, I also have a habit of being wrong.
(DIR) Post #AQcnG62f9T3RmUSARE by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T08:08:13Z
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@34a3cff1fb40 I created the UFoI because a self proclaimed nazi named snow annoubced publucly he and a bunch if his followers were going to create alts on lgbtq servers and spread misi formation about qoto... it worked and now people are blocking for made up and silly reasons. Things i can easily disprove and no one listens.@Romaq
(DIR) Post #AQdR8IwLJFVhdLKvGi by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T15:35:00Z
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@freemo@Romaq> it worked and now people are blocking for made up and silly reasons. Things i can easily disprove and no one listens.Yup, because that's how the system was designed to work, as I've said before. That's why I believe (and hope) #Mastodon doesn't have a future.Being #FOSS and decentralised may be a necessary, but by no means sufficient, condition for an ethical & resilient social network.
(DIR) Post #AQdRQvfc3BPOxvON2u by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T15:38:23Z
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@34a3cff1fb40 Very true.. but maybe instead of hoping mastodon fails maybe we should figure out what it lacks and add it... UFoI is my attempt at that, but I also made it open so we can work together to find that solution (rather than me just dictating it)... its a start...@Romaq
(DIR) Post #AQdRhnLEGmcQ3btrUm by mathlover@qoto.org
2022-12-15T15:41:33Z
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@34a3cff1fb40I still think that as more people enter into Mastodon and other ActivityPub instances, a lot of these issues with spurious and silly blocking will fade away.I suspect the problem is less people in general and more the kind of people attracted to becoming Mastodon admins when it was still very small and insular compared to now. @freemo @Romaq
(DIR) Post #AQdRjSGra1KLHteKUS by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T15:41:44Z
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@freemoThere is no life without struggle. I'd rather see Mastodon succeed as long as it takes for something obviously better to supplant it... IF IT EVER DOES. I suppose, as a guess, people are still using gopher: servers and USENET. They are certainly still using IRC. Did those actually "fail"? Would they have "failed" if nobody *was* currently using them?@34a3cff1fb40
(DIR) Post #AQdRwiAZmSiSMR1uoS by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T15:44:15Z
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@mathloverI tend to think there will be more spurious and silly blocking as more the kind of corruptible people attracted to the power of being any kind of "admin" will take it up and collectively assert power to urinate on things other people are doing they don't agree with. Problems such as this tend to become worse, rather than better with scale.@34a3cff1fb40 @freemo
(DIR) Post #AQdS2lXw8fDkZTqMmu by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T15:45:13Z
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@Romaq It will depend entirely on how the community responds.. if they cheer it on it will continue. If people raise up to object and stick together it wont.@mathlover @34a3cff1fb40
(DIR) Post #AQdS5OdZlpaEOAjfhw by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T15:45:40Z
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@mathlover I hope you are right.. I am skeptical but do know it can change for the better.@34a3cff1fb40 @Romaq
(DIR) Post #AQdcwBR6a7k6KsiCzA by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T17:47:23Z
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@freemo@Romaq> maybe instead of hoping mastodon fails maybe we should figure out what it lacks and add it.#Mastodon is an #API and some software implementing it.By the time you finished removing what doesn't work and adding what does… you'd probably be better off starting from scratch.Alternatively, if you view #Mastodon as a community, you'd have to figure out whether they can work cooperatively towards a common goal.
(DIR) Post #AQddVR7WGCxV7AMQwy by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T17:53:46Z
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@34a3cff1fb40 well before we try to figure out reasons it wont work first someone needs to identify the problem and how to fix it... I made my attempt at it, but maybe there are other ones to consider.@Romaq
(DIR) Post #AQddrjhRrYrJ6nndp2 by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T17:57:47Z
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@freemoIn my opinion, root problems tend to be people problems. Collective agreements forming peer social pressure towards positive ends tends to help. Technology solutions can strengthen the path. Encouraging people to not be bat-shite crazy would be a good start towards whatever technical issues hold #Mastodon back.@34a3cff1fb40
(DIR) Post #AQdeAj2OY5y0YbeUNc by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T17:58:13Z
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@Romaq@freemo> people are still using gopher: servers and USENET. They are certainly still using IRC. Did those actually "fail"?IMO, no. Gopher fulfilled its purpose until it became superceded by superior technology.USENET's problem was the conjuncture of a) spam and b) the success of the Google business model (have a siloed, captive audience that you can show ads to). But USENET did have an important element of success…
(DIR) Post #AQdeAjcuMLAqNqjeIC by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T17:58:26Z
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@Romaq @freemo…it didn't have a focus on "communities". Your university, workplace or ISP just ran a news server and apart from some very generic filtering (binaries or not, porn or not, etc) they just let the thing run. And your identity was decoupled from the actual server(s) you used.
(DIR) Post #AQdeAkEU6dEQGOJerY by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T18:01:10Z
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@34a3cff1fb40 The problem in my view is we live in a society that is highly polarized right now, that leads naturally to people having, and even wanting high insularity. The issue is that decentralization fundementally breaks down in insular communities due to its very nature.@Romaq
(DIR) Post #AQdeI69H1O0iGHNw36 by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T18:02:34Z
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@freemoWe need to get rid of all this polarization... you are either with me or totally against me on this!... Ok... I'll just see myself out now. :-/@34a3cff1fb40
(DIR) Post #AQdfLZ6RvSXQswHUg4 by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T18:14:23Z
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> why must it "fail"? Why *hope* for Mastodon to "fail"? Why not just use it and support the platform for its benefits until something more suitable@RomaqPlease note I said "I believe (and hope) [it] has no future". I didn't say it has to fail because IMO, the fact that we're having this discussion is evidence that it already *has* failed.I think @freemo does a good job of pointing at a possible root cause in the post above.
(DIR) Post #AQdfWRYmJLg4fyidPM by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T18:16:21Z
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@freemo@RomaqI subscribe every word of the above. I wish I didn't, but I'd be burying my head in the sand.
(DIR) Post #AQdfkuSleAqqN5o04e by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T18:17:44Z
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@34a3cff1fb40Ah... @freemo used the word "fail," while you specifically said, "has no future." My apologies. "... that we're having this discussion... already *has* failed."Wouldn't such discussions apply to most anything under the sun? Wouldn't that apply everything under the sun has failed?Or is there room for improvement for most anything?
(DIR) Post #AQdfkuqWDrqlYkuy5w by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T18:18:58Z
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@Romaq Just the things under the sun? You are more optimistic than me then :)@34a3cff1fb40
(DIR) Post #AQdfqg2ECeL7MS8rPU by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T18:20:02Z
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@freemoMy apologies for using literary license. I try very damned hard to be the most cynical person in the room.@34a3cff1fb40
(DIR) Post #AQdi5APUGWazWx3fhQ by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T18:25:53Z
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@freemo @RomaqThere's an element of the Zeitgeist for sure. My theory (peer reviewed by my mates at the pub) is that this was latent in there and the #covid pandemic acted as a trigger.I don't believe people are acting rationally across a wide spectrum of situations: #Ukraine war (funnily enough none cares about #Yemen), vaccinations, trade, economic inequality, migrations, human rights, corruption, … the list goes on.
(DIR) Post #AQdi5AxsCg6LFb98IS by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T18:26:03Z
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@freemo @RomaqThe #Mastodon design might have worked well in a different global context, but not this one.
(DIR) Post #AQdi5BPWXsDedM5DOa by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T18:29:03Z
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@34a3cff1fb40Personally, I'm not clear if anything is going to function well until we've had enough global civil unrest, economic devastation, needless death, and abject misery to decide on the whole as a species, "Ok, ok... enough of this, we're done playing now."@freemo
(DIR) Post #AQdi5C2AED7yZCA4ci by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T18:41:46Z
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@Romaq@freemoCivilisation seems to be cyclical indeed. I hope the dark ages are not going to last 800 years again. Especially not in a globalised world where have no escape. It's not like this time around we could just move to #Baghdad.This is why I'm very concerned about adding my voice to *any* kind of divisive rhetoric.
(DIR) Post #AQdi5CSkdMOXtebJ44 by 34a3cff1fb40@mastodon.world
2022-12-15T18:42:44Z
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@Romaq @freemoMind, that only means that I'm a candidate to be burned at *everyone's* stakes. 😛
(DIR) Post #AQdi5EJbkKGldsL25g by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-15T18:44:59Z
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@34a3cff1fb40 Relevant: https://youtu.be/HLNhPMQnWu4@Romaq
(DIR) Post #AQdlfLuzFvelVejpkO by Romaq@qoto.org
2022-12-15T19:25:13Z
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@freemoFor some reason, I keep getting kicked out of any collective I find myself in including Libertarians. For some reason.@34a3cff1fb40