Post AQXwftEDLK5xMmQlyC by sophon@rdrama.cc
(DIR) More posts by sophon@rdrama.cc
(DIR) Post #AQXwb6p9MoAU5KQZo8 by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-12T23:59:26.832974Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
it's so cute seeing hackernews normies talking about Clojure as if it's some kind of amazing elite language when compared to CL it feels barely a step above other languages in terms of interactive development while also adding a lot of ugly syntactic noise. They cannot even mimic a fraction of our power :xf_lispalien:
(DIR) Post #AQXwftEDLK5xMmQlyC by sophon@rdrama.cc
2022-12-13T00:00:20.011967Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nyx julia tho
(DIR) Post #AQXxLGuQCew2gSuCMy by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-13T00:07:48.787570Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@nyx Because Clojure is in fact a synergetic combination of three things: the language itself, a way of working centered on interactive development, and structural editing support in editors for manipulating the code safely and efficiently[emphasis mine] where condition system
(DIR) Post #AQXxQHsk0tNj9JVkQa by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-13T00:08:42.563387Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hayley *vomits a JVM stacktrace at u* nothing personnel
(DIR) Post #AQXxTlnvDfs0ouuwu8 by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-13T00:09:20.050144Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@nyx return to Strongtalk
(DIR) Post #AQXxZmjuefIFSUuVwO by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-13T00:10:25.305859Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hayley Strongtalk army is the strongest
(DIR) Post #AQXy4QMtsdpf3KkxrE by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-13T00:15:57.623256Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@nyx
(DIR) Post #AQYIjh1eqr6VfemC92 by scathach@stereophonic.space
2022-12-13T04:07:28.781102Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@nyx I like Clojure because its tooling is more accessible and it's way easier to get into
(DIR) Post #AQYPUQNFBCwVMTXVa4 by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-13T05:23:11.417272Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@scathach CIDER is a bit more ergonomic by default and has better visual feedback I guess, but it's still nowhere near as good as SLIME/Sly once you get beyond babby's first lisp
(DIR) Post #AQYPaY6jL5WT5IjgbA by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-13T05:24:18.196147Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Arcana @scathach that's right :xf_slimegirl_2:
(DIR) Post #AQYPleOwHOsxn0XwUy by scathach@stereophonic.space
2022-12-13T05:26:18.006332Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nyx I haven't used Cider anywhere near as much as I've used Sly so I can't really judge that, I was referring more to CLI tooling like leiningen
(DIR) Post #AQYPw85wjZuamKex8a by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-13T05:28:11.970545Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@scathach oh right. yeah, I guess so. I haven't thought about it because when I was still using Clojure I was just using the default clj tool and deps.edn
(DIR) Post #AQZgWGzkuiRzEPyqES by cyberspook@soc.redeyes.site
2022-12-13T20:08:43.062726Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Lispers are hyping up their language so much that I want to become a programmer now just to see why it's so cool.
(DIR) Post #AQbyfFXHtYy4ns0xO4 by Gnuxie@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-13T19:34:10.105050Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
>babby's first lisp@nyx we've fought over the title of "lisp" before. The truth is that interactivity isn't something that should be taken for granted. The interactivity probably comes from everything that shared direct lineage with Maclisp and Interlisp (I'm bullshitting here). Which unfortunately accounts for almost nothing now. Even in terms of niche programming languages, Common Lisp's community is pathetically small. Held up by talented people who come and go.For anyone who hasn't bought into the interactivity kool-aid, I'm not writing this message so you can comfortably discount it and move on. As though nothing was lost, I'm just being bitter. You should be very worried.
(DIR) Post #AQbyfG89gUSUeDGOqu by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-14T22:41:25.840881Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Gnuxie yes you’re right ofc and I’m aware that strictly speaking a lisp doesn’t need to be an image-based interactive language (in fact I don’t think the ANSI CL spec even mentions anything about that style of programming). people nevertheless seem to associate lisp with that style of programming, if for no other reason than because historically lisp was one of the first languages to have a REPL, but it’s more or a cargo cult mentality I guess that leads to things like Clojure where it’s “interactive” in the sense that it has a REPL with some integrations in GNU’s enslaved lisp machine but ultimately is still just a stream that vomits text at you. true interactive programming has never been tried not tried enough
(DIR) Post #AQbyfOU4cskEYVa17w by Gnuxie@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-13T19:41:15.002111Z
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"So that you can comfortably discount it and move one"specifically discount the point that interactivity is important. You should be worried that we don't have the same level of interactivity in any language remotely in the mainstream anymore. Even though the bar is honestly ridiculously low. It could be very easily amended if we look at the wider context of how much $BB of turnover there is in this industry and how little is reinvested back into programming languages themselves. The languages that are actually directly used probably do not even get invested in enough. But I haven't done research on that. What does this mean for you? In some senses it does actually mean you can comfortably be employed for a lot longer because tech is only going to get more complex as the industry doubles down on its regressions. Though it also means programming remains a high bar, that literally no one knows how to do right.
(DIR) Post #AQbyfaZ7hvuk1e2DfE by Gnuxie@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-13T19:48:47.273526Z
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How many problems that you solve at work do you think have been solved before? How many problems do you solve at work with a crap solution because there isn't time to do things properly, do you even know, can you even image what the right thing is? The software industry isn't about programming and it's not about improving programming, it's about selling software. You're not a programmer, you're not a software engineer. You're a tube of glue and you will be squeezed.
(DIR) Post #AQc1IhVa1n30lD9gg4 by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-14T23:10:59.882672Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nyx @Gnuxie eh, I'm not convinced that most associate Lisp with interactivity. The most common association is the proggithumor one, as I've said frequently. We do associate it with interactivity, evidently, but that's us.And indeed there's interactivity (look, I gotta REPL) and interactivity (you can do all your debugging live and do serious things in the environment).
(DIR) Post #AQc1WQsiduCpFPWgOO by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-14T23:13:28.137907Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hayley @Gnuxie hm, yeah I guess le parenthesis language and macros are more typical associations if you really get down to the lowest common denominator
(DIR) Post #AQc1mNsDauS4YFtkQ4 by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-14T23:16:22.507826Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@nyx @Gnuxie I would argue ANSI CL is designed to have useful interactive semantics though a CL system needn't be interactive. Consider e.g. update-instance-for-redefined-class doing something reasonable for class redefinition. And the condition system is set up to allow a nice debugger, as the stack is preserved when calling invoke-debugger even though none is specified.
(DIR) Post #AQc24IrwwHNEF9JikK by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-14T23:19:36.204889Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@nyx @Gnuxie But it's a hard thing to discuss. I would say Lisp is being recuperated by people trying to drag it into inferior environments like C/Unix and the JVM, but Lisp is not a synonym for Common Lisp, so what radical stuff was there to begin with? All I can say is that most Lisp sucks (as I did in By The Pound), which again makes discussion hard.
(DIR) Post #AQc2Qt3j4AeIr5atTE by hayley@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-14T23:23:41.244039Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Gnuxie @nyx (to be clear, evidently CL does survive on Unix and JVM hosts, I mean to make it act more in line with how they behave - I think some SBCL hacker made the distinction and it stuck with me)
(DIR) Post #AQc4MEyGN3EJH3x1Ki by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-14T23:45:15.349261Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hayley @Gnuxie for sure, in my own experiences with learning Guile and Clojure before later moving onto CL, it was obvious to me once I started with CL that it's in a league of its own compared to other lisps or indeed most other programming languages (since most aside from the Smalltalk family don't really care about interactive programming). it's bizarre frankly that whenever I see people compare CL to other lisps, no one seems to really notice that it has facilities like CLOS and the condition system that lend it to an interactive programming style. I suppose it's because like gnuxie said, the lineage of PLs that focus on interactive programming is small and largely forgotten, and I think most people don't even realize that when a language is designed with the right features in mind, it can dramatically (radically, in fact) change the experience of programming and simplify a lot of things that are really common when debugging something (e.g. it always is really jarring to me now when using like Java/Python/JS/etc. how I could save so much time writing hacky throwaway code to do stuff like print a result by just being able to like, actually look at an object and see what it's like).personally my take though is I think a lot of programmers don't think about these things though because they're also kind of fundamental, almost metatheoretical/philosophical questions about the experience of programming. most people are quick to assume that something must be a solved problem because everyone is already using a substandard solution.
(DIR) Post #AQc6smZ1D0AidSmuW0 by Gnuxie@social.applied-langua.ge
2022-12-15T00:08:30.009534Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@nyx @hayley and just think that for most programmers log.debug is the goto way to solve something...
(DIR) Post #AQc6w0F4oF3ZvWzoCO by nyx@social.xenofem.me
2022-12-15T00:14:07.945323Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Gnuxie @hayley it's like trying to hammer a nail with a rock when I have a nailgun right there =_=