Post AQDGHTcEptbPkD96Dw by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #AQCI4N220ducJI82CG by shelenn@nerdica.net
2022-12-02T02:08:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
For new admins (and others unaware), and users trying to find a permanent home, this is a good reference list related to instances that have been defederated at large.https://joinfediverse.wiki/FediBlock
(DIR) Post #AQCI4Na3y78O0q3DF2 by ceoln@qoto.org
2022-12-02T02:20:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shelenn Seriously? Not your fault, I know, but #qoto does NOT have "no moderation"; this is a complete myth. qoto is as moderated as any server. It's not some kind of "free speech" absolutist nuthouse.What qoto doesn't have (in most cases) is #defederation, and the reasons for that are nicely spelled out here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/109319817943835261I'm on qoto, and as far as I can tell the fact that it's been defederated by some other servers has no impact whatever: I see lots and lots of people, and lots and lots of people obviously see me.I really don't get it.k
(DIR) Post #AQCI4O10LwgXMOejEe by shelenn@nerdica.net
2022-12-02T02:34:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ceoln I've read the reasons why some servers defederate qoto and as with any admin, it is their decision based on their criteria and their rules. It's not my list but is a list used by many admins. That does not mean that all admins who reference the list agree with every entry.
(DIR) Post #AQCI4OOkvdgSY3lhFw by toxomat@social.tchncs.de
2022-12-02T13:15:44Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@shelennI am tempted to turn that around: An admin defederating that list without checking (that need is explicitly stated at the top) is an incompetent admin. So a new user better avoids instances that block #qoto unless their instance of choice gives a checkable reason to do that. @freemo gives a convincing story about how he got slandered by nazis for providing a safe space for LQTB+.@ceoln
(DIR) Post #AQCIMIZRKnlxgdIu12 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T13:19:36Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@toxomat @shelenn @ceoln The issue with the list is that it clearly suppresses evidence that is not in line with the operators opinions, effectively lying by ommitting relevant context to distort the truth.See my list on the talk page.. Despitte being respectful and showing a mountain of evidence to disprove the evidence claimed for QOTO on the block list none of this evidence was actually added (in fact in response they added another entry claiming I harassed her). Instead despite the polite mention I was blocked.https://joinfediverse.wiki/Talk:FediBlockThis isnt a case of "admins make up your own mind".. this is a case of explicitly lieing, presenting on the cherry picked out of context evidence to support your agenda and suppressing all evidence that disproves the claim int he block.Is that really a block list you want to support? I mean come on the majority of instances on the list dont even bother providing evidence.
(DIR) Post #AQCK1oCejL0jcW0KXo by satan@hell.social
2022-12-02T13:38:15.545Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shelenn@nerdica.net so, are you implying that #fediblock scrapes instances of their blocks/suspentions?
(DIR) Post #AQCNJqSJOTwVgIcSCu by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T14:15:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SecondJon Apparently being, even to shitty people, is a dog whistle, but only when those shitty people arent you :)@toxomat @shelenn @ceoln
(DIR) Post #AQCVrnws1MRPNucJ28 by ceoln@qoto.org
2022-12-02T15:50:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @SecondJon One of the things I've tentatively concluded in my journey from teenage libertarianism to old-guy leftism, is that being nice to shitty people is in some cases a bad idea. :)But regardless, as Jon says, preventing all of one's users from seeing qoto, not because of anything actually on the server, but in order to indirectly pressure its mod to behave differently, seems to be a pretty weird set of priorities to me. @toxomat @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCWQqOytJUX84TQOm by ceoln@qoto.org
2022-12-02T15:57:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@SecondJon @freemo Good heavens! That section of the talk page certainly makes it clear now the kind of thing that's going on. It really is just a Paula Don't Like You List, which is a fine thing for Paula to have, but it distresses me that it's being advertised as some kind of centralized list that people can use. Even though it says that everyone using it should check every item, people are lazy, and some aren't going to do that. The point that no mod should be that lazy is well taken, so maybe any such servers are no great loss anyway, but I feel sorry for their users.@toxomat @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCXHa9S2a2u4qMCBM by matrix@gameliberty.club
2022-12-02T16:06:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shelenn Looks like a great list of recommendations for new users on which instance to join
(DIR) Post #AQCYUC8gjG7jK5ZuF6 by justin@ser.endipito.us
2022-12-02T16:19:24Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @toxomat @shelenn @ceoln A list that blocks instances solely for "ancap, libertarianism" isn't credible. To be fair, I block the hell out of sites for "communism, Marxism." But that's just me. I'm not representing myself as an authority that others should follow in that regard.We do need a central library of instance categorizations so that people can make their own choices. This isn't it.
(DIR) Post #AQCYeFGhwtiLvN7bjk by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T16:22:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@justin Agreed, that is actually something I'm working on with the United Federation of Instances I am trying to build #UFoI The purpose of coalitions would be to basically curate lists using due process for various purposes, thus ensuring the lists are accurate and include all evidence. Which is what you are talking aboutt.See here for the current proposal, if your interested in it let me know and I can connect you more with the discussions (its democratic so all voices welcome as it is still inn formation):https://ufoi.gitlab.io/constitution/united_federation_of_instances_proposal.pdf@toxomat @shelenn @ceoln
(DIR) Post #AQCZwe8ELXvuCeUj7A by toxomat@social.tchncs.de
2022-12-02T16:36:07Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@ceolnfreemo is obviously evil b/c he used a scraper coded by someone associated with an evil webpage. Have to take that seriouly. I used ReiserFS in the past, please don't tell anybody. @SecondJon @freemo @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCaKNVToFZZajgZ4y by toxomat@social.tchncs.de
2022-12-02T16:38:21Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@ceolnMore seriously, I know @PaulaToThePeople as a smart & honest person doing considerable voluntary work for the good cause. Even though I don't agree with her on this issue at all.Maybe we all should try to become less personal and agree on something like "reason to block an instance should be apparent from looking at the local timeline for a while". Perceived admin's character shouldn't play a role.@SecondJon @freemo @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCaKNwmAlPIxOSMcq by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T16:40:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@toxomat I would have been happy if she just accepts evidence that is agains her conclusions just so others who use the list have an informed decision rather than a very intentionally cherry picked set of "gotchas" with everything proving it to be a lie just hidden away.... shows a lack of integrity to say the least.@ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCbETKPLvHbrZFpgm by toxomat@social.tchncs.de
2022-12-02T16:50:58Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemoI fear this "hard evidence" - talk is also misleading. The topic is inherently subjective. You have a way of formulating stuff subtly provocative. Might trigger (wrongly, I suppose) asshole-detection-heuristics in some people. But I believe the way out is simply not to try suss out admin's character but look at actual content at an instance.@ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCbR7hZ4Re4YQ7Od6 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T16:53:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@toxomat They dont have to agree with the conclusions fromt he evidence, but they should fell an obligation to provide it to others when you share this stuff publicly.When i am talking about someone if they reply with a counter argument and i later publish evidence against them I will go out of my way to include their counter argument even if I think it is nonsense, because of a sense of integrity to presenting all the information to my reader so they can make an informed, not forced, decision.But yes I agree with your final conclusion that any evidence against a server should be based on the content of the timeline.@ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCbZjOun21LnDV2hM by derickflorian@qoto.org
2022-12-02T16:54:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn It’s really disappointing that no one is interested in listening to unblocking qoto of those who are blocking us and delisting us. I think ample reasoning has been provided.It doesn’t look like there is a solution and even though it unfairly affects us it’s their decision. Just wanted to register my disappointment.I feel like they have adopted the right wing mantra that saying free speech is hate speech. Then it becomes a blank check to block any group of people you don’t like.
(DIR) Post #AQCbjEd838MdFrgD7w by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T16:56:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn The words "free speech" dont even appear in our ToS and we clearly moderate.As for a solution in sight, i disagree, and many other instance admins and users are working together to create the #UFoI, this should be a counter force to this sort of nonsense.@toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCcWpEIlIcExKiIqW by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:02:31Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Eh, I'm of the mind that there's no reason to get upset about it. QOTO doesn't block servers, so the servers decided to block themselves. It's self-selected curation. Anyone who wants their eyes shielded by another for arbitrary reasons is probably not the kind of curious, inquisitive person that I prefer interacting with on social media anyway.All one can do is try to publicize the fiasco so that those who are curious can leave the draconian servers and come to the light of reason and open discussion.
(DIR) Post #AQCcWprIQJo8uGxRcu by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:05:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LouisIngenthron On this I agree. Its just shame that many will buy this guff and assume their lies are reality and use it to make misinformed decisions, very sad.@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCdIi8GS8ukqNiu8W by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:14:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn To an extent, yes.But I believe that (even in a more general sense), we ascribe too much blame to the liars and too little blame to those who uncritically believe lies. The latter create the demand that affords the former their living.We, as a species, easily fall prey to confirmation bias. Those who refuse to fight it with critical thinking are absconding their duty to their community.
(DIR) Post #AQCdLxFIiYyQaPYrVg by skanman@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:14:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemoOh look on the bright side.Well if you've got a dystopian cyberpunk fantasy, societies headed in that direction. If you don't, get your nitrox certification, and you can drive a bit deeper/longer to escape it all. 😂 @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCf0AKNbBN2hFftiq by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:33:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LouisIngenthron These are good points, cant disagree.@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCf2qvKCPYdNuEkM4 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:33:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@skanman I can go down 450 feet... I am well past nitrox :)@LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCfCtlGVGgd57K0fY by derickflorian@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:29:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LouisIngenthron @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn That is a good point and I agree with everything you say, but I think the part that gets me is that they are making the decision to not see on behalf of others.I guess the best action is to just continue on and keep bring attention to it and the United Federation of Instances seems like a good vehicle/countermeasure for that.I do like the community on QOTO and all the other instance I have the pleasure of interacting with. I have blocked a lot of instances in the list that was shared by my own choice so it’s not an entirely bad list.I just wanted to vent. It just seems like one block after another for the flimsiest of reasons but your approach is definitely the correct one.
(DIR) Post #AQCfCuEKlBwGXGvDyi by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:33:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn "they are making the decision to not see on behalf of others"I disagree with this characterization. Those folks chose to join those servers. Sure, most likely, when they joined, they were ignorant of the blocking policy. But they can always learn about it and move.Some people may want to live in gardens with arbitrary walls defined by others. 🤷♂️ Who are we to stop them?
(DIR) Post #AQCfCvJKk5X3t4GjPU by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:35:35Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@LouisIngenthron The problerm is they **cant** learn about it, not easily... They are on a server where all dissenting voices are silenced, so they will never heard about it on network.They could look at the block list, but since they are blatantly lieing about the evidence they will again be unable to discern the truth.These people go out of their way to engineer it so their lies are the only thing anyone hears.. if you even try to discuss it or look into it you get attacked.@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCgQIQgCR1VJ4e58S by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:49:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Oh, come now. The idea that someone "can't learn about" something just because they're not spoon-fed it by social media is one of the more ridiculous fictions of the modern era.You're doing the right thing by getting the truth out there for people who are willing to look for it.Those who are happy with their ignorance can blissfully marinate in it. Those who aren't happy will start to ask questions and seek outside info.
(DIR) Post #AQCgXfx58pU2HuJuaW by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T17:50:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LouisIngenthron I'm not saying they **can't** learn about it.. im saying they are in a position where it becomes much harder to learn about, partly for technological reasons (blocking) and partly for social reasons (peer pressure and threat of being suspended if you even ask).@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQCjeRJeFvbqmhnBTc by antares@qoto.org
2022-12-02T18:25:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I am so disappointed and frustrated that free speech that was such a core value of liberals and academics when I was in college c. 2000 has now become synonymous with hate and the alt right.
(DIR) Post #AQCjmIekKuqwFAPPTU by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-02T18:26:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@antares ITs a shame people just listen for "dogwhistles" rather than bothering to understanding what someone might mean on a case by case basis and generalizing at all....@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQClsgA63Vhun6F52e by skanman@qoto.org
2022-12-02T18:50:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo yyyeeeaaah that's scary, are you bringing extra tanks? I wouldn't think you'd get much time at that depth, and a lot can go wrong. Have you gone down that far before?
(DIR) Post #AQD6bYm6MhsFzkhH8a by preem@qoto.org
2022-12-02T22:42:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemoWhen people abuse terms like TOS, hate speech, etc. to justify censorship, you aren't having a logical discussion. Some won't accept reality and need to exist in a protected reality bubble. No amount of discussion will change minds of those who don't want to hear certain things since they do not like them, disagree with them, lack tools to be around them or reject them. Reality is difficult and unfair and our job as humans is to make the best we can of it. Unfortunately it can be mislabeled as hate or non-supportive even though it's not the case. Keep working at it, your doing good things for the communities. I chose this STEM based instance because topics and discussions can be hard. And it's important and healthy to learn how to have those discussions, make mistakes, apologize, disagree, change yourself and keep going.Thank you for your blood sweat and tears.@toxomat @shelenn @ceoln @freemo
(DIR) Post #AQDGHTcEptbPkD96Dw by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-03T00:30:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@joaopinheiro I agree, and its why I think the #UFoI stands such a good chance of succeeding and counter that... the central idea is dialog, evidence, and due process.@toxomat @shelenn @ceoln
(DIR) Post #AQDIx3Pmq9WIYSH75s by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-12-03T00:59:52Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I would worry about their unknowing users strung along. 1. Make an instance that promotes positive values 2. Acquire many users in line with those values 3. Act against those values 4. Oops. All blocked. I think a lot of people that would be welcome here would be blocked. That is why we should absolutely go forth with freemos initiative. Not to protect qoto, but to promote human communication. It was always a thing, people breaking down communications to advance nefarious goals. I think we could even make a better world, if we could protect good faith communication from trolls.
(DIR) Post #AQDJ2RH9YP4S0Onw0W by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:01:53Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@admitsWrongIfProven The one thing people love most about QOTO it is our friendly nature where we treat people like a friend at a coffee shop, not an enemy to debate.. lets hope the #UFoI can bring that feeling to the wider fediverse.@LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQDJChkDB8DNyhI7bE by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:03:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I would go further and say that the fediverse is a very friendly place. Those trolls exist, sure, but i have had a lot of positive experiences not only on qoto but all around. If we just ignore the trolls, that would be in danger.
(DIR) Post #AQDJuN7XDcK6kw1THM by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:09:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Freemo's idea is certainly interesting, and I'm keeping an eye on it, but ultimately, I think the solution will be much like what we use for email: RBLs. You get a couple dozen different groups to run their own block lists. Your server ends up on one or two, no big deal. But you end up on a bunch of them and you get auto-blocked by just about everyone until you resolve the issues with enough of the individual lists. That way, it democratizes the process further, and no one actor can take down a server unilaterally.
(DIR) Post #AQDJuPtSuNqrMASmGW by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:11:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LouisIngenthron That works fine for email systems where the admins are relatively impartial... doesnt work so well in a fediverse where people block you if you dont use their block list... We are seeing now just how easy to game the system is, you have tons of good actor instances getting targeted because of dumb reasons.@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQDK8ydOXWXl9otC5I by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:14:20Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn To hammer this down further: I come from not twitter, but another platform where insults are forbidden, but being mean is not something that moderators would react to. Accordingly, i built some neural pathways to accomodate. My mode of operation was "i can troll the trolls". Whoever is nice, nice. Whoever not, let's see who wins. So i was looking around here and thought "i hear negative things, i should troll the trolls". I have hence understood that this does not make sense in this environment. Even just being mean is so extraordinary that i do not need to. And that includes the users from other instances i have encountered. I even was sure someone was arguing in bad faith one time, but after i said i wanted to disengage that was honoured. This is a place that has no physical location, but a great appeal.
(DIR) Post #AQDKA4lvCpliTxOxoe by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:14:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Nothing is ever impartial; it's all subjective. That's why the key is correcting those errors through the law of averages.
(DIR) Post #AQDKLxn8z5euJAdqXg by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:16:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LouisIngenthron it isnt about subjective vs objective.. its about responsible due dilligance vs pitchforks and gossip... You cant replace due dillagnace by just averaging a bunch of people from a mob with pitchforks.@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQDKUPwqBQlbwzCzPE by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:18:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Eh, he does have a point. If the bad actors get blocked by most, the users will probably notice their fediverse is very small. It is a question of if you want to wait until all that joined a "bad" server have migrated, and if the platform as a whole will endure that long.
(DIR) Post #AQDKh2M3DLaEXd1AGm by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:20:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I'm with you here. It is hard, but not trying is the sure way to loose. Yes, even if we try we will get stuff wrong. No, it is not meaningless. People will notice we try.
(DIR) Post #AQDKuUiD5qrCFrndb6 by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:22:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I'd argue that you can, actually. What you can't do is change human nature and prevent the pitchforks in the first place. Instead, you just have to account for them and let the level-headed majority prevail. It's like how most people can't sing in-tune, but if you get a big enough crowd to sing together, their faults cancel each other out and they're in-tune as a group.If you try to build a coalition premised only rationality, then it will be destroyed with a sneeze by the first irrational actor who gains power within it. Instead, we have to plan for dealing with the real human condition.The way I'm thinking of it, it would be kind of like the Metacritic of the Fediverse. You could even have a survey of server admins each year about which block lists they trust the most and feed that into the weighting. Users could follow specific lists or aggregates.The more I think about this, the more I think I might try prototyping something this weekend.
(DIR) Post #AQDL0a87rWasnPp9pg by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:24:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @skanman @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Oh i can go down a lot further than that. We're talking about niveau, not diving, yes?
(DIR) Post #AQDL4qqvd7IPooofJo by freemo@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:24:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LouisIngenthron Level headed majority... Is this your first day on the internet? ;)@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
(DIR) Post #AQDN5m6exgp5IQk5c8 by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2022-12-03T01:47:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Easy to forget that the loudest folks aren't always in the majority :blobwink: