Post AQ15vTCcMSLMeZViTI by vivernu@springbo.cc
(DIR) More posts by vivernu@springbo.cc
(DIR) Post #AQ0NsNNZ9zMnjyLVuy by farooqkz@qoto.org
2022-11-26T18:53:31Z
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@freemo According to https://qoto.org/about/more says #hate_speech is against laws and one would be banned because of it. Does this mean that a #Muslim expressing their religious belief about man-to-man intercourse is a hate speech? According to #Quran this is a shameful deed and according to #hadith there is death penalty for both parties having such an intercourse.
(DIR) Post #AQ0NsNmNfjDSyvxKb2 by tonic@qoto.org
2022-11-26T19:18:12Z
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@farooqkz @freemo the idea is that if you should avoid pushing religion and pushing hate - what you identify as problematic is probably problematic so I’m guessing you answered your own question and I hope you know better than to preach & that’s it : a bit of maturity goes a long way.
(DIR) Post #AQ0NsOBCBT48DtZ9H6 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-26T19:24:51Z
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@tonic @farooqkz Anything you say will be evaluated the same whether its a religious beleif or a personal one... that said you are welcome not to be a homosexual yourself.. you are not spread rhetoric that is hateful or harmful to their community.
(DIR) Post #AQ0S8cf4VYrTaVXKEa by BobKerns@qoto.org
2022-11-26T19:57:01Z
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@farooqkz @freemo What is your real purpose in asking this question?Surely you don’t need to ask if advocating killing people is hate speech.A more interesting question is whether this is hate speech against Muslims.Consider this view is far from universal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_IslamConsider that Leviticus 20:13, in at least the King James translation, calls for the same thing.I can’t speak to the Jewish view here, but Christians view the Old Testament to have been supplanted by a less-harsh message of the New Testament.(Before making assumptions about the Jewish view of Leviticus, keep in mind that the King James translation contains 2 references to unicorns—down from Tyndale’s 4).Are you trying to incite hatred of Muslims from the LGBTQ community?I don’t think that’s your intent, but I do think you need to reflect on why you would present the #Muslim religion as a threat.Is defaming a religion a ban-worthy act? I don’t know. I’m new here.But I don’t approve of it.
(DIR) Post #AQ0S8d6iqkymyGTPKi by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-26T20:12:36Z
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If you were to say that you feel homosexuality should be punished by death, then yes thats hate speech and would get you suspended, as i said before, if a beleif comes from religion it will be evaluated no different than a personal beleif.
(DIR) Post #AQ0bNXtnOdb0kSc9Ee by farooqkz@qoto.org
2022-11-26T20:09:45Z
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@BobKerns @freemo @tonic There are many acts which are considered a crime(a sin which has a punishment) in my religion and the punishment of many of these crimes is death.Regarding "Advocating killing people", this is too general. In my religion I'm must kill someone who is aware and is trying to kill me and that I don't have any other way of defending myself(e.g. in a war). Also the punishment for intentional murder is also death. And so is punishment for two who had a man-to-man sexual intercourse. Given that these hadiths are "correct". Under which conditions? I don't know.Now if I narrate such a hadith and tell the others that it's correct and that's my belief, is this considered a hate speech?The reason I'm asking about this, is my future actions. As I am a user of this instance, I must know its rules well so that I won't post something which is against the rules.The reason this discussion is public is that it might benefit the others as well.#qoto
(DIR) Post #AQ0bNYQ3ShOsMVhuW8 by Pat@qoto.org
2022-11-26T21:12:48Z
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@farooqkzLots of Muslims believe that love is love, and they don't hate people for who they are.Maybe you should consider changing your religious beliefs. Have you considered that? @BobKerns @freemo @tonic
(DIR) Post #AQ0bNYpvuU6HeloZqy by farooqkz@qoto.org
2022-11-26T21:21:31Z
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@Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic Okay let's change my question.I have a personal or religious belief which is considered hate-speech. Is it okay to express that?
(DIR) Post #AQ0bNZMByXu9GouL8S by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-26T21:56:06Z
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@farooqkz @Pat @BobKerns @tonic Are you allowed to say hate speech if you beleive in it... no, no you arent. How much you beleive in hate speech doesnt change how much it is against our rules.
(DIR) Post #AQ0nKwc6FbEByqrZyK by vivernu@springbo.cc
2022-11-27T00:10:13.444Z
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@freemo@qoto.org @farooqkz@qoto.org @Pat@qoto.org @BobKerns@qoto.org @tonic@qoto.org The problem is hate speech can mean anything from obviously extreme advocations of murder on one end or just being logical on another, and this "logic" is invariably discriminatory on a technical level.Hate speech is subjective to a degree. If I claim it is illogical for transwomen to compete in women's sports since the gender segregation is based on physicality, is that hate speech?
(DIR) Post #AQ0oXFi5AyPcdW5uPQ by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-27T00:23:36Z
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@Vivernu Extreme advocations of murder is hate speech... logical things arent.Lets stick to examples that arent easily classified if we want to make that point, I agree, there are some areas that might need debate... but most of the time its pretty cut and dry, I rarely see subtle people on the internet :)@Pat @farooqkz @tonic @BobKerns
(DIR) Post #AQ0tnlmeC6h6VzvP60 by BobKerns@qoto.org
2022-11-27T01:08:32Z
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@Vivernu @Pat @freemo @farooqkz @tonic 1) What is the purpose of school sports?2) The physicality to which you allude is based on hormonal differences. If we’re talking about high school sports, it’s puberty blockers we’re talking about.This would put trans women at a disadvantage.So to your question: what is the context? Are you attacking a trans athlete? Are you seeking to impose your opinion?Do you seek to exclude trans athletes from high school sports? If so, do you believe that high school sports should be about finding who is most physically capable?If so, does that even support your argument? (Personally, I reject that role for high school sports, but any trace of unfairness in who wins pales in comparison to the unfairness of not even being allowed to compete.)Have you even met a trans woman?But here’s a formula for you. Ask—does this speech do harm? To a group? To individuals?Is the purpose of the group, or the actions of the individual, to do harm to others?These questions should help you work out an answer.I just post here. I can’t interpret the rules for you, especially out of context.
(DIR) Post #AQ0tnmH8Ml542YBkcC by vivernu@springbo.cc
2022-11-27T01:22:38.972Z
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@BobKerns@qoto.org @Vivernu@springbo.cc @Pat@qoto.org @freemo@qoto.org @farooqkz@qoto.org @tonic@qoto.org I'm not just talking about "school sports". Firstly, this is just an example of something that can be debated in good faith but some extremists would consider "hate speech".Seccondly no transwomen, even after hormones, aren't the "average" physicality of women. They average somewhere in-between women and men.The point is the segregation of men and women's sports is done due to physicality primarily. At best an argument to integrate transwomen into women's sports (where transwomen have a large advantage) is an argument to integrate men & women's sports in general.
(DIR) Post #AQ0tqBcD7jTPD4CBea by vivernu@springbo.cc
2022-11-27T01:23:06.134Z
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@BobKerns@qoto.org @Vivernu@springbo.cc @Pat@qoto.org @freemo@qoto.org @farooqkz@qoto.org @tonic@qoto.org And btw, I have plenty of trans friends, all transwomen. At least one agrees with me on this issue.
(DIR) Post #AQ15vSfIMLgkzDv6X2 by BobKerns@qoto.org
2022-11-27T02:31:32Z
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@Vivernu @Pat @freemo @farooqkz @tonic In the context of school sports, fatigue is a side effect of puberty blockers, but if we’re talking college or pro, you have to take hormone withdrawal into account. In addition to fatigue, withdrawing from T you lose that extra muscle mass.I don’t feel like a good faith discussion is possible without a clear understanding of the purpose of the competition and a clear understanding of the impact of trans people’s participation.Arguing broadly on the basis of hypotheticals just serves the transphobic agenda. I’m not accusing you of having a transphobic agenda yourself.But fear that trans women might participate in girls sports, in the abstract, is clearly trans phobia (deliberately two words).Discussing it on the basis of what might happen, divorced from all context, pushes for broad trans exclusion where it’s not needed, and where perhaps separate boy/girl sports aren’t needed at all.And the emphasis on who wins needs some reexamination as well. Children’s sports where parents come to blows…A large part of the furor over this topic, to the extent it’s not pure transphobia, is a symptom of this unhealthy obsession with winning.Anything that’s left over might be worthy of a serious discussion.
(DIR) Post #AQ15vTCcMSLMeZViTI by vivernu@springbo.cc
2022-11-27T03:38:30.090Z
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@BobKerns@qoto.org @Vivernu@springbo.cc @Pat@qoto.org @freemo@qoto.org @farooqkz@qoto.org @tonic@qoto.org All I'm saying is this:Physically, men are on average stronger and more athletically capable than women, This is a fact, and this is the reason men & women's sports are segregated by sex, to not be unfair to women.Transwomen do become a bit more physically like women after they go through HRT, but they're somewhere in-between the physicality of men and women—perhaps closer to men still, even, at least where average athleticism and definitely bone structure is relevant. It's complicated, sure, but in a sense it's still unfair to women to allow them to compete in women's sports. I've seen no evidence after full treatment that transwomen average the female average in overall physicality. Furthermore, even if it is true, or one believes, that after full treatment transwomen average women physically, I recall seeing an interview where some famous transwoman who is controversial was advocating waiting until full HRT treatment before letting transwomen in women's sports, and tons of people were claiming she was transphobic or something for "gatekeeping" like that, which implies even then plenty of activists don't care about logic at all.I think it's possible to change how sports are segregated to accommodate this, maybe? But the fact is, all rational attempts at an argument for the inclusion of transwomen in women's sports are arguments for the sex desegregation of sports in general, and perhaps attempting to compensate with weight classes, which even then may not be able to accommodate all the nuanced differences between men & women's bodies.
(DIR) Post #ASUwIgbd8tTg25zvnM by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2023-02-09T08:17:36Z
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@farooqkz @Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic I would differentiate how you say it. You can say about yourself whatever you wish, and i would not bat an eye. Example: "I believe people eating strawberry icecream is wrong." Fine. If you however say people should be stopped from eating strawberry icecream, you are starting a fight (with people that did not do anything bad to you, so no defense there) and i believe you deserve all the backlash such a thing provokes.
(DIR) Post #ASUwIhMmJbBwOK3aHg by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-09T08:56:06Z
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@admitsWrongIfProven I woukd be a tad bit kore delicate about the wording:"I think eating strawberry jce cream is wrong so i dont eat it, but other people shoukd be allowed to choose for themselves what they do as lobg as they dobt make me eat strawberry ice cream"Thats fine."I think other people shoukd only be allowed to eat the kibd of ice cream i approve of because me and my faith based opinion says so and everyone shoukd be beholden to my faith based opinions, not just me" Well thats wrong.@farooqkz @Pat @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASUyaSZmFArLdmjZGS by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-09T09:21:46Z
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@Pat The overwhjelming majority of Muslimns I know from around the world would never want to force their beliefs on others. They themselves would never engage in homosexuality as they do view it as against their personal morality but would never dream of imposing that on others.So yea, the excuse of "this is my religion" doesnt cut it, because he choose that particular hateful interpritation, the religion didnt "force" it upon him.@farooqkz @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASV81cEFMWZuz5gedE by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-09T11:07:32Z
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@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic According to hadiths, Muslims must implement punishments as much as they can. Which are for the good of society and possibly the person punishment is given to. And this isn't a personal belief, it is a religious belief. e.g. I don't have this idea, my religion has.Regarding punishments, some are mentioned in Quran, some other in Hadiths and some other in both. For example, sexual intercourse out of marriage is illegal according to Quran and the punishment is 100 lashes in the public which must be done by an authority(government?). You can see the beginning of the 24th Surah.Hand of thieves must be cut off according to 5:38.And regarding anal sex between two men, the punishment is death according to the hadiths I've mentioned earlier.P.S.: Opinion of Muslims is not relevant. For Islam you must look into Quran and Hadiths.
(DIR) Post #ASV8AtAvj0a29JYcnA by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-09T11:09:11Z
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@farooqkz No it is a personal beleif.. you choose to pick the interpritation you just described, other Muslims dont, period. So yes its a personal belief that you choose to tell yourself it isnt, nothing more nothing less. all religious beleifs are personal beliefs.@Pat @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASV8I3GGcifNSRT9km by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-09T11:10:29Z
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@farooqkz And sorry but the whole "someone else does my thinking for me", which is what "its religious not personal" sounds like isnt gonna cut it. You are and will be held accountable **personally** for your religious beleifs, exactly because religious beleives are always personal beleifs.@Pat @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASV9HbJkcMqykIRoye by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-09T11:21:39Z
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@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic You might be right about that religious belief is also personal belief. But when Hadiths obviously say there is death penalty, I am trying to deceive myself if I believe otherwise. There is a proverb in Arabic "This is more obvious than the sun". If I am a believer in Muhammad, what other interpretation could I have when he says if they did so, do so.
(DIR) Post #ASVROiitHUfmuokd96 by Pat@qoto.org
2023-02-09T14:44:37Z
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@freemo >'"I think eating strawberry jce cream is wrong so i dont eat it, but other people shoukd be allowed to choose for themselves what they do as lobg as they dobt make me eat strawberry ice cream"Thats fine.'It's fine as long as the ice cream isn't produced by enslaving someone, forcing them to produce it, and having their babies taken away and slaughtered to make veal.@admitsWrongIfProven @farooqkz @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASWqAUXFvSYws4a4no by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-09T12:43:30Z
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@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic Sorry I think I missed something which might cause misunderstood.I think the law of Islam, a big portion of it but probably not all of it, is for Muslims. That includes things which are haram, halal, punishments, etc.For example if I remember correctly, the Prophet Muhammad was giving punishment of Jews according to the Torah they had and not Quran.
(DIR) Post #ASWqAV128kNkMQVrDU by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T06:56:49Z
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@farooqkz Yes and what you jnterprit as the law of islam is different than what other people choose to interprit. Again you dont get a free pass for choosing a vile interpritation over a kind one.@Pat @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASWqGOhWWyFMVuCRcW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T06:57:57Z
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@farooqkz Its only obvious to you it is hardly obvious that it is thr one and only jnterpritation to the resr of the world.@Pat @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASXJ0LVpW1lmf5QcV6 by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-10T12:20:00Z
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@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic I don't like to discuss this further. If anyone is interested they can read Quran and Hadiths which are both available online.@freemoWith respect, I suggest you be more careful about using words like "monster", "idiot", "extremist", etc. If you call someone a monster for their personal or religious belief, you will probably make them more persistent. If you think something is wrong, come with evidence and act mega nice. And I also recommend first studying a Book(Quran or not) for a relatively reasonable period and then discuss what it talks about.
(DIR) Post #ASXJDuJVR8cSMP89YG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T12:22:26Z
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@farooqkz I have read the Quran about a dozen times at this point, similar to many of the other common holy books of other religions. I think I've "studied" it more than enough to have an opinion.As for what I refer to an idea, it is not motivated by what will manipulate people the most to agree with me. I say my opinions and I voice them honestly.@Pat @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASXL2zqYixs8FBW2wS by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-10T12:33:16Z
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@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic I'm surprised you've studied Quran a dozen times. How old are you if I may ask?
(DIR) Post #ASXLV4yvE628HHooBk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T12:47:51Z
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@farooqkz 40 and religion is a hobby of mine. I've read most holy texts of Islam, Jeudaism, and Christianity, as well as a few less known religions. I feel it is important to study religions and that religion holds a lot of wisdom.@Pat @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASXbeZL9K1nEJ1lJMe by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-10T15:48:58Z
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@freemo @Pat @BobKerns @tonic Hmm I'm 22 and I study Quran since I've learned #Arabic which is from about 7-8 years ago. And I haven't studied #Quran even a 1/5 times, yet.I think our scales are different then :/
(DIR) Post #ASXlKwmTSXuCkvpEIq by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T17:37:26Z
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@farooqkz I think thats a bit of a cop out.. WE have both read it, we both understand it. Scalres are irrelevant at this point.
(DIR) Post #ASXmDrVAmwG2JIuzZI by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-10T17:47:23Z
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@freemo no I have read just a small part of Quran. Not enough to have a unified view. So in discussions like this I present my understanding which have been formed by reading his small portion. I think this is something else which slipped through my mind.
(DIR) Post #ASXnnto7nErHqAWwwi by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:05:06Z
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@farooqkz Well if you havent read the whole thing that might limit you a bit.. But i think our discussion is generic enough that it might not matter all that much.
(DIR) Post #ASXqDvqv0oB9cXNWk4 by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:32:14Z
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@freemo okay so I ask you: Quran commands Muslims to fight and kill unbelievers. Can you explain this to me? Must I kill my atheist friend?
(DIR) Post #ASXqQBKFJFcf5HwAKW by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:34:24Z
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@farooqkz The Quran cant command you to do anything. It is a book. Only your interpritation of the book will "command" you to do anything. A book has no meaning until it is interprited.
(DIR) Post #ASXqaIY5JCFENmEZRw by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2023-02-10T18:36:15.722883Z
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@freemo @farooqkz https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/interpretation
(DIR) Post #ASXqfgD2lZs3DExU1Y by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:37:12Z
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@otso Yup thats the definition.. your point?@farooqkz
(DIR) Post #ASXqlUheSYGBGQ30iG by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2023-02-10T18:38:17.387203Z
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@freemo @farooqkz https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spelling
(DIR) Post #ASXqoQ6O1SanrY0otc by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:38:50Z
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@freemo I beg to differ. Such a thing is not allowed. If it is God's command, only he is permitted to change it. I cannot add a single word or miss one. isn't what you are talking about changing his word by making extensions to it which you call interpretation.
(DIR) Post #ASXqpmO0eibJGWu51k by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:38:50Z
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@otso All that to point out a spelling typo? Ok thanks.@farooqkz
(DIR) Post #ASXqxuZ68AwEwry3Hc by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2023-02-10T18:40:31.633648Z
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@freemo @farooqkz I get typos too after a couple of beers
(DIR) Post #ASXrHrnO8aNC9PAQnQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:44:06Z
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@farooqkz No im not talking about changing the content of the book by adding words to it.. I am talking about what a person thinks is meant by the text in its current form.Lets break apart the example. Lets say somewhereint he quran it said "You will kill infidels".. well lots of interpritations for that ... 1) One might think the "you" in this case doesnt refer to the reader but was something being said to someone in the context of the story 2) Infidels may be interprited as something other than "nonbeleiver" 3) They may feel other parts of the text further clarify the meaning and change it, for example at a later point it may say killing is wrong 4) People may feel these were gods instructions for people at a point in the past but was never intended by god to apply to people in the modern day. 5) it may not be seen a commandment at all 7) Perhaps they dont feel the Quran is infallable and the people who wrote it were flawed and made mistakes 7) Someone may feel the language has changed since the book was written and some of the meaning is lost.
(DIR) Post #ASXrU3SyZVFNp1QnwG by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2023-02-10T18:46:19.963355Z
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@freemo @farooqkz https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/polisen-nekar-tillstand-for-koranbranning>Police deny permission for new Koran burning at Turkish embassy
(DIR) Post #ASXrzMoMhIfGnRMnFw by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:48:25Z
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@otso @freemo my point is that God's command must be self-explaining and must not have any need to explanation or interpretation. If I add an explanation, that is my word and not God's. As an additional note, Hadith is also considered God's commandment. As a conclusion of this, what Mullahs or Imams or whoever say are not like God's word.#islam #quran #allah #hadith #religion #god
(DIR) Post #ASXrzNR0NdZajHReU4 by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2023-02-10T18:51:59.342351Z
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@farooqkz @freemo >As a conclusion of this, what Mullahs or Imams or whoever say are not like God's wordthat's definitely true
(DIR) Post #ASXsB1SNv1g02ddwsC by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:54:04Z
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@farooqkz There is **always** interpritation...thats how reading anything works.. you read the words, interprit the meaning. Books dont have brains, they cant interprit themselves.You are just using it as a cop-out.. you are claiming your interpritation is **the** interpritation, as if there was no element of you in that process.. but thats not hte case.. you are the one who reads the words and takes it to mean a specific thing, you cant avoid it.@otso
(DIR) Post #ASXsUMhPAH7FQQtNFQ by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T18:57:34Z
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@farooqkz I just gave your seven interpretations to your statement of "you will kill infedels" for examples... not one of them is some version that "lacks" interpretations, that statement doesnt even make sense. @otso
(DIR) Post #ASXse72CGCdLjpGVVo by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2023-02-10T18:59:21.975996Z
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@freemo @farooqkz something like this?https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/819698/jewish/How-Is-the-Torah-Interpreted.htm
(DIR) Post #ASXsqiXOeMeBWkrx4a by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T19:01:36Z
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@otso It touches on some examples, yea.@farooqkz
(DIR) Post #ASXt0PcTqEojkYrzw8 by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-10T19:03:23Z
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@freemo okay then my point is that there is only one possible understanding of #quran plus #hadith plus a healthy mind which most people have. As an example, please tell me your understanding of this verse:Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are stern against the deniers, merciful to one another; you see them kneeling, prostrating, seeking grace from Allah and good pleasure; their marks are on their faces from the effect of prostration. Such is their description in the Torah and their description in the Gospel: like vegetation that sprouted, then became strong, then grew thick, then rested on its stem, impressing the farmers. Through them He enrages the deniers. Allah has promised those of them who have attained faith and have done righteous deeds forgiveness and a great reward.Please tell me your understand of the first sentence.
(DIR) Post #ASXts7BgaW0oDlwcUa by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T19:13:03Z
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@farooqkzSo this part: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are stern against the deniers, merciful to one another; you see them kneeling, prostrating, seeking grace from Allah and good pleasure; their marks are on their faces from the effect of prostration.(One small correction, Allah here should be God, as you are translating to english and God is the english word for Allah)I see many interpretations here, and I dont myself pick any particular one… lets break it apart Muhamed is the messenger of godthis part could have many interpritations, though most musslims would take it to mean he is a prophet from god delivering a new religion. I myself might take it to mean any numberof alternative things, for example I might take it to mean he takes messages to god, rather than the other direction. Lotsof potential interpritations for this. and those with him are stern against the deniers, merciful to one anotherAgain lots of room here for different meanings… What does “with him” mean, a literal interptiation would mean people standing around him, could also mean other messengers of god, or it could mean his followers.Sterm against deniers can also have a lot of interpritation.. deniers of what? stern in what way? etcEvery part has tons of things it could mean, and it isnt obvious to everyone since there is so much difference in interpretations.
(DIR) Post #ASXud0Jfx6gwWN2Y2S by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-10T19:21:31Z
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@farooqkz My personal interpritation is this:A person named muhamed was wise and had understoof some truths about god (the meaning of messenger). A bunchg of people who hung out around Muhamed had very similar ideas and insights about god. Those people put more effort into helping eachother out than they did people that werent part of their group. This group prayed so much that they had marks on their face (likely from putting their face on the ground when praying)
(DIR) Post #ASY8RO8Az2CuGQ15ge by Pat@qoto.org
2023-02-09T14:38:06Z
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@farooqkzAre you saying that people who are of the same sex who love each other and have sex together and believe that Islam allows them to do that, that they are not true Muslims? @freemo @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASY8ROgutrzq0AGppw by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-02-09T14:57:12Z
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@Pat @freemo @BobKerns @tonic IMO, There is no such thing as True Muslim or False Muslim. Someone is either Muslim or is not.However if you are asking if those two men are still Muslim, I would say it really depends. And I also believe such a situation is highly improbable unless they have never looked into Quran and Hadith. If someone believes there is something forbidden in Islam and they still do it, that doesn't change anything. They are still believers in Islam and that they will pay for their sins in this world, hereafter or both.But if someone believes that for example, the prayers are not mandatory while Quran obviously states otherwise, I suppose they are not a Muslim anymore. Being a believer has a definition in Quran. You can look at the two last verses of the 2nd Surah.P.S.: I'm strictly talking about anal sex between two men. Not oral sex and or sex between two women. I don't know about those cases and I don't know if the current evidence can't be generalized.
(DIR) Post #ASY8RPFeohmljuWZzE by Pat@qoto.org
2023-02-09T15:07:46Z
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@farooqkz>"P.S.: I'm strictly talking about anal sex between two men. Not oral sex and or sex between two women. I don't know about those cases and I don't know if the current evidence can't be generalized."Then, are you saying that two men who love each other and butt fuck each other and interpret the Quran in a way that they believe it allows them to do that, that they are not Muslims? @freemo @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASY8RPkUy2SJHYxD3g by Pat@qoto.org
2023-02-10T21:53:40Z
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@farooqkz >"I don't like to discuss this further...."Black resigns.For the rest of you, here's how it plays out...If farooqkz says that the guys in my toot above are not Muslim, then Islamic law does not apply to them, so what's the problem?If farooqkz says that they are Muslim, then people can be Muslim and still believe that gay sex is fine, in which case the issue is a choice and farooqkz is saying that his position is his choice -- he is choosing to be homophobic.@freemo @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASZTJmCy0MiYwfJuj2 by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-11T13:07:40Z
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@Pat @farooqkz @freemo @BobKerns @tonic I think what he is saying is that there are three states in question here, not two. It's not "Muslim" vs "not Muslim", it's "good Muslim" vs "bad/sinning Muslim" vs "not Muslim".A gay Muslim would fall into the second category, not the third or the first.@farooqkz, is that right?
(DIR) Post #ASZTLjheI29lkrbcqe by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-11T13:13:49Z
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@freemo @Pat @farooqkz @BobKerns @tonic I think if you don't believe in all of a religion, you can't be called a member of that religion. Except maybe a heterogenous religion like Hinduism.Also (and this has relevance outside of religion), you can't "choose" to interpret something whichever way you please. There are right and wrong interpretations. Outside of religion, this doesn't matter. But within many religions it does because deviating from the holy book is considered a sin.
(DIR) Post #ASZTM3un8sYMRPuP6u by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-11T13:15:49Z
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@farooqkz I don't know what @freemo thinks, but if I was running a forum I would forbid all instances of advocating the murder of the harmless, whether it comes from a place of religion or not.
(DIR) Post #ASZhjvhajBuTHH0eXp by Clementulus@qoto.org
2023-02-11T16:06:11Z
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@Hyolobrika @Pat @farooqkz @freemo @BobKerns @tonic This conversation I think has strayed from the initial question of @farooqkz, which was whether him sharing his religious beliefs or verses from his faith's scripture on this platform could be construed as hate speech and lead to banning. Equally, would prohibiting farooq from sharing those beleifs on this instance itself be an injustice towards him? I am actually curious on this point rather than discussions on what is/isn't "proper" Islam.
(DIR) Post #ASa2x16E4PHkoqc7Ky by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-11T20:04:09Z
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@Clementulus @Pat @farooqkz @freemo @BobKerns @tonic If you argue the latter then any violent bigot can claim their bigotry is part of their religion and you would be forced to tolerate it. In fact, there are many extant religions that technically include the same belief, such as Christianity and Judaism.
(DIR) Post #ASaBXDRiRU7ZAaRBpI by Clementulus@qoto.org
2023-02-11T20:59:19Z
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@Hyolobrika @Pat @farooqkz @freemo @BobKerns @tonic But the sharing of beliefs is not necessarily the same as proselytization. It could be done in the spirit of open and frank discussion. And the question remains, is stating one's religious beliefs online grounds to be banned from those forums? Clearly, anyone who believes in the Sharia and tells me about it online will not have the power to impose it on me here in Canada, regardless of whether they would want to or not. Should I, therefore, be insulated from all possibility of discussions with those people?
(DIR) Post #ASaBnGnljXyOD7PLqC by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-11T21:07:43Z
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@Clementulus @Pat @farooqkz @freemo @BobKerns @tonic >Should I, therefore, be insulated from all possibility of discussions with those people?It's up to you and the forum admin. If you want to be insulated either join a forum that bans that kind of thing or insulate yourself using the block and mute buttons. If you don't, then join a free-for-all forum and don't use those buttons.
(DIR) Post #ASb8tU9QuNHEe7lzjk by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-12T08:45:29Z
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@Clementulus It depends on how it is shared.. if it is shared as "The Quran says XXX and some people who follow the Quran interprit it as YYY"... That is just sharing a statement of fact, and in and of itself is fine.Now if he promotes YYY as something others should follow, and YYY is hate speech, then no, promoting hate speech isnt allowed regardless of if its religious.@Hyolobrika @Pat @farooqkz @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASb9wg7kwvcabQ4jIG by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-12T08:57:17Z
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@HyolobrikaSince advocating for murder is illegal it is forbidden here already without even needing to consider the moral aspect. @farooqkz
(DIR) Post #ASbAMF7twsW6OrKj4a by freemo@qoto.org
2023-02-12T09:01:53Z
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@Hyolobrika Historically extending the interpretation of a religion still makes you a member of it so long as you arent contradicting the interpretation.Non-denominational Christianity for example must include the core bible as a minimal canon, and ones interpretation of it must be that Jesus is the son of god.Any other additional interpretations that are not at odds with the above minimums are still Christianity, they just become a specific form of it.|Likewise the catholic denomination has its own internal divisions with different extended interpretations attached, each variation is still part of Catholicism.So there is a lot of room for personal interpretation while still being considered part of the parent religion.As for interpretations being right or wrong, it is an opinion which ones are right and which ones are wrong in the first place... so thats a rather moot point.@Pat @farooqkz @BobKerns @tonic
(DIR) Post #ASbL4qzpVfwc8OT7Jo by Clementulus@qoto.org
2023-02-12T11:02:04Z
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@freemo @Hyolobrika @Pat @farooqkz @BobKerns @tonic That makes sense. I had been under the assumption that that was the case on this instance but was just curious to see how people think on the matter.
(DIR) Post #ATOKur68TXUSWfwa6y by ec670@pawoo.net
2023-03-08T02:21:07Z
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@farooqkz @Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic This dude is Shapiro-ing so freaking hard“What if I hypothetically were to quote a ancient legal text that prescribed the death penalty for an act that is legal under modern legal codes, using a social network service that theoretically bans violent speech and theoretically allows historical scholarship and includes users across international and geopolitical boundaries”
(DIR) Post #ATONaMtXMOugvIyQCG by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-03-08T02:51:01Z
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@ec670 @Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic What is Shapiro-ing?
(DIR) Post #ATONvBSv37i9YbRtRY by ec670@pawoo.net
2023-03-08T02:54:48Z
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@farooqkz @Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic What if I, hypothetically, was the world’s most subscribed right wing podcaster and I talked real fast and made videos with clickbait titles and I spouted off a right wing talking points at naive college students that they had never heard before and they didn’t have a counter argument and it produced the illusion that I won the debate
(DIR) Post #ATOONVV69Wq3nryQdM by ec670@pawoo.net
2023-03-08T02:59:56Z
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@farooqkz @Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic Constructive criticism: your #ParadoxOfTolerance takes on “#Islam is #BadActually” are not witty or original at all. People have heard it all before. All you’re doing is broadcasting your childhood baggage and religious trauma to the rest of us and we have our own shit to deal with
(DIR) Post #ATOOUumgXydWFKjSGu by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-03-08T03:01:15Z
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@Hyolobrika @Pat @freemo @BobKerns @tonic There are two groups:1. I don't pray the prayer because I believe I must not pray the prayer.2. I don't pray the prayer simply because I'm lazy but I do believe that I must pray the prayer.If I am among the former group, I am not a Muslim anymore because I have problem in my belief and this belief is simply against Islam because from Quran and Hadiths, it is clear that Prayers are mandatory.If I am among the latter group, I am still a Muslim however guilty because I am not praying the prayer. God may forgive me later on the day of Judgement or may not. But I'm still a Muslim.Regarding interpretations, if you have studied Quran, there are some stuff in Quran which have exactly one interpretation because the verses from Quran and their Hadith counterparts are clear as crystal.Like praying the prayer, fasting Ramethan, believing in the Bible as a scripture from God, prophecy of Muhammad, Abraham, Jesus, and others, that Alcohol is forbidden, that we must be honest, that we must not do gay sex, that we must pray the Friday prayer and a lot more stuff.
(DIR) Post #ATOOdIH75oMBPzxaFs by ec670@pawoo.net
2023-03-08T03:02:44Z
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@farooqkz @freemo LOL
(DIR) Post #ATOPVEOriRVJ2PIzbM by farooqkz@qoto.org
2023-03-08T03:12:29Z
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@ec670 @Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic Sorry I don't understand most of what you are saying. Does that "you" refer to me?
(DIR) Post #ATOPn82E7UwCVdFaQC by ec670@pawoo.net
2023-03-08T03:15:39Z
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@farooqkz @Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic Did freemo block and ban us? I don’t see his replies on his page. Did he delete them?
(DIR) Post #ATOPnAoVmwkX7xrAxc by ec670@pawoo.net
2023-03-08T03:15:44Z
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@farooqkz @Pat @BobKerns @freemo @tonic Did freemo block and ban us? I don’t see his replies on his page. Did he delete them?