Post APxhFJgoMLQ8c37WcK by kallisti@refusal.biz
(DIR) More posts by kallisti@refusal.biz
(DIR) Post #APwgNl00PeAQW4bDkG by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T00:33:27Z
0 likes, 6 repeats
Up until the end of the 80s, instruction sets were designed for human use, whether RISC or CISC or predating that now-arbitrary distinction. Since the 90s, they've been designed for compilers -- very much "you are not expected to understand this" stuff. Any coder used to be able to tell the CPU exactly what to do. Now, only the rarified few can, and for the rest of us, there be dragons. #programming #shitsux #retrocomputing
(DIR) Post #APwicsV50Oqc26TK88 by ayy@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T00:58:36Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid I wouldn't want to tell the 64-bit CPU with megabytes of cache which bit should be stacked where. Just give me pictures of cats and I'll trust your black box.
(DIR) Post #APwjoMyM9PMTgFD2IK by cloy@techhub.social
2022-11-25T01:11:51Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid - should have tagged this #throwbackthursday :) - coming as an ex-demo coder from the 90s, why do you think this important though? - these days even javascript runs at 90% the speed of C.
(DIR) Post #APwzpypsSab8fR27rE by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T04:11:24Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@ayy get off my lawn, young whippersnapper
(DIR) Post #APwzyV5OREjn0SLyLY by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T04:12:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cloy it's only really important philosophically. When you grok what the processor actually does, and how you tell it to do those things, you have a much better understanding of how to write nice tight efficient code. And then you create elegant things, not bloated web trash apps.
(DIR) Post #APxLf95cC6ioH7dK4W by ayy@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T08:16:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid I feel ancient and cranky but thanks for the kind words, fellow old-timer.
(DIR) Post #APxOtsPmlwSQlXmeoK by Klaatu@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T08:52:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid @cloy it's important if you're writing the compiler or designing the chip's micro code. And learning assembly has always been the wax on / wax off of this cyber kung fu training.
(DIR) Post #APxfaPMgFoQwO4dMTQ by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T11:59:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Klaatu @cloy sure but only a few need to do that work, hence the rarity these days of the knowledge
(DIR) Post #APxgmksGCzHWWhrA5Q by cloy@techhub.social
2022-11-25T12:12:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid @Klaatu even embedded systems and microcontrollers these days are powerful enough to support some level of abstraction - I wonder what will happen when that knowledge actually dies out!?
(DIR) Post #APxgvyTuzBgNKqrnYe by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T12:14:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cloy @Klaatu it'll never die out, after all people have to keep writing compilers and JIT engines and so on. It's just that those who do that are far fewer in number than those who don't, simply due to the fact that you don't need as many people working on those kinds of projects as you do for all the rest of all of software development
(DIR) Post #APxh2NQn8Y4WS7SPIm by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T12:15:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cloy @Klaatu btw even 40 years ago microcontrollers were powerful enough to support some abstraction. There were C compilers for the 6502 back in the 80s
(DIR) Post #APxh7xOypGD5ShGqW0 by kallisti@refusal.biz
2022-11-25T12:16:25.024892Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid @cloy @Klaatu they weren't _good_ c compilers. the code of high level languages (or virtual machines) was generally consistently worse because the abstractions weren't that good
(DIR) Post #APxhDRpf77ZjHuMxJA by cloy@techhub.social
2022-11-25T12:17:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid @Klaatu - reminds me, I had these for my BBC micro :D - was my first contact with C
(DIR) Post #APxhFJgoMLQ8c37WcK by kallisti@refusal.biz
2022-11-25T12:17:44.306798Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid @Klaatu @cloy 6502 isn't a good match for the PDP-11 model of computing that C likes to pretend to exist, and even simpler abstractions (forth, sweet16) still run like shite.ur better off picking abstractions that match the hardware
(DIR) Post #APxhNICnlEXIKJt344 by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T12:19:17Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kallisti @Klaatu @cloy well, C wasn't good back then anyway. It took C89 to make it rational enough to work consistently outside of UNIX, and C99 to make it good.Plus, as @kallisti points out, C is built around a Platonic ideal of a PDP-11, and every other processor or microcontroller is expected to twist itself into that shape.
(DIR) Post #APxhUUGRKES3kl1Fei by cloy@techhub.social
2022-11-25T12:19:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kallisti @Klaatu @coldacid - true, but when I was 8 I didn't really care about that, the BBC micro was primarily a learning machine, and I got to learn C on it :) - wouldn't consider implementing anything serious.
(DIR) Post #APxhUUkZWCYRGD7Jce by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T12:20:35Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cloy @kallisti @Klaatu 6502 is also elegant enough that you don't really need high level languages to work with it
(DIR) Post #APxhUkBi7aAx8ivhVQ by kallisti@refusal.biz
2022-11-25T12:20:32.896372Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cloy @Klaatu @coldacid thats totally fair yea! im just shoving my anti C agenda on this thread :)
(DIR) Post #APxhdBi3gDoAoV5Q2K by kallisti@refusal.biz
2022-11-25T12:22:01.998937Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid @cloy @Klaatu i've never really worked with the 6502, but everyone around me likes it a lot
(DIR) Post #APxib5Cwyxic1X61BI by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-25T12:32:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kallisti @Klaatu @cloy I learned programming as a kid on a C64, starting with BASIC but within a year starting to tool about with 6502 machine language. As much as I love 68k assembly, it's the 6502 where I first unlocked the mysteries of silicon.
(DIR) Post #APxjxl4I7wFaAzQEZE by cloy@techhub.social
2022-11-25T12:48:13Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid @kallisti @Klaatu - still an active demoscene on C64, is amazing what people can pull off nowadays: e.g.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DUilAJv0dQ
(DIR) Post #AR6UaUp0f3sA2TsXwG by opal@ap.maladaptive.art
2022-12-29T16:00:29.199289Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ayy @coldacid programming used to mean micromanaging your code to get more cycles out :^)
(DIR) Post #AR6UcjG3xTVfOLb6GW by opal@ap.maladaptive.art
2022-12-29T16:00:53.635249Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cloy @coldacid retains 90% of the bugs too
(DIR) Post #AR6VCgZzOWsjVd3zHs by opal@ap.maladaptive.art
2022-12-29T16:07:20.159284Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@coldacid @kallisti @Klaatu @cloy >back thennever was
(DIR) Post #AR6cZw3ciI49qvxRo0 by ayy@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-29T17:30:03Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@opal Yo Y U necroposting here :-D
(DIR) Post #AR6ilWZpsGgI1hvyme by opal@ap.maladaptive.art
2022-12-29T18:39:21.674684Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ayy found it just now
(DIR) Post #AR6zhv9EHHlwefmWMS by coldacid@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-29T21:49:12Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@opal @cloy more like 900% of them