Post APrCSyEmeS9EbhHXay by tiago@social.skewed.de
(DIR) More posts by tiago@social.skewed.de
(DIR) Post #APqQvdJoi7EcKJEnxo by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T00:12:00Z
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So, this thing really needs a quote feature... People are just posting the link to other posts to quote it, but following it takes you out of your instance, so you can't interact, etc.The whole argument that quotes promote toxicity is quite weak IMO. It's a super useful feature, and we're missing it.
(DIR) Post #APqRFv2yVTFD6N27Mm by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-22T00:14:21Z
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@tiago agree
(DIR) Post #APqRJNTzEw0SA7JiBE by exterm@layer8.space
2022-11-22T00:16:17Z
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@tiago mastodon could also open the links within your instance, as a stopgap measure. The functionality is already there (paste link into search field)
(DIR) Post #APqRX4Nz2QfIzM2PC4 by Aclater@hachyderm.io
2022-11-22T00:18:37Z
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@tiago agree 100%, linking to a post is wildly disorienting
(DIR) Post #APqS1S15kBnGxvoj4q by pekkasipila@mastodon.world
2022-11-22T00:24:14Z
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@tiago And it's very annoying not to be able to see the original post while writing the quote post. Juggling between Mastodon app where I'm writing the quote and the browser where I'm viewing the original.
(DIR) Post #APqS7R7I0GC1uaZPkG by coffeenommer@mstdn.party
2022-11-22T00:25:20Z
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@tiago you know what features we're really missing? a gif engine
(DIR) Post #APqTYGVTeshimLEzVg by damnedliberal@newsie.social
2022-11-22T00:41:21Z
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@tiago Idunno. One can click on "expand post" to see the thread. Adding quotes would also consume more server space (which somebody must pay for).
(DIR) Post #APqTqyi03TyN561N4q by contextfree@hachyderm.io
2022-11-22T00:44:44Z
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@tiago I agree, and it can probably be solved fully in the client.
(DIR) Post #APqVNc4tJhLuP4qznk by paezha@mastodon.online
2022-11-22T01:01:49Z
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@tiago Nope.
(DIR) Post #APqY6cLrLUlmBxNUxc by richpav@famichiki.jp
2022-11-22T01:32:20Z
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@tiago Mastodon is going to appeal to some Twitter refugees who will settle down here, but not all of themSomething more suited to your tastes (perhaps a Muskless Twitter) will come along because right now there are billions of advertising dollars waiting to be spent.
(DIR) Post #APqZfvhlTxzkIx1gC8 by arivero@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-22T01:49:57Z
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@tiago And in fact the toxicity is the rally call, that already happens from the act of posting the link.
(DIR) Post #APqo12Ao1iwPo0ZEae by marcorizzi@mastodon.lawprofs.org
2022-11-22T04:30:39Z
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@tiago Or... we can learn to use this platform not as a substitute of Twitter (which is was never intended to be) but as its won things, with its own rules and culture. Quotes did promote massive toxicity and allowed bullies to throw vulnerable people to the wolves. I do not miss it one bit.
(DIR) Post #APqtjJeit75gXUUmEC by kdw@mastodonapp.uk
2022-11-22T05:34:41Z
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@tiago @estebanmoro hard disagree..am a newbie here too. My impression is that the narrative on QT is exactly right.QT is essential to being a broadcaster as opposed to someone who engages in exchange. Most everything that was toxic about Twitter relates to the former.
(DIR) Post #APqwOYm3mbMLD1inWi by exterm@layer8.space
2022-11-22T00:16:39Z
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@tiago but it could be automatic.
(DIR) Post #APqwOZnrxMOuOvZkzA by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T06:04:34Z
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@exterm right, this is all that's needed for the quote feature, nothing else really.
(DIR) Post #APqxz9kfsVUMGx5VZ2 by djnavarro@fosstodon.org
2022-11-22T00:55:12Z
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@estebanmoro @tiago Hard disagree, and I would seriously consider blocking any instance that implemented it. One reason I had to surround my account on twitter by an incredibly aggressive set of block/mute scripts is that certain topics that pertain to my life are not safe to talk about there. Quote tweeting was used repeatedly to incite harassment. There's a reason that the long term users here pushed hard against it
(DIR) Post #APqxzAILrIQXxOqP3Y by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T06:22:24Z
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@djnavarro @estebanmoro I do not dispute your experience, but I have a hard time understanding what would be so special about the quote feature that would trigger this behavior in particular. Couldn't toxic people just do the same using reply? Maybe the fact that people posting links or screenshots instead does not trigger a notification?I often use quotes to boost content with added commentary or additional information, or to reference posts in other conversations, replies to repeated questions, etc. It just seems like basic functionality that has a bunch of legitimate uses.
(DIR) Post #APr2kTtHDhqq9tvv2O by Norrodar@social.tchncs.de
2022-11-22T07:15:46Z
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@tiago why quoting, when you have boosting and the conversation-feature?
(DIR) Post #APr3DsBhxjC9ugZMiu by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T07:21:06Z
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@Norrodar For example, here I could have posted a link to my answer to this very same question made by someone else. But I can't do that.
(DIR) Post #APr3JHzFTAsFNLK9x2 by djnavarro@fosstodon.org
2022-11-22T07:22:03Z
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@tiago @estebanmoro It's like I said in my reply to @estebanmoro two posts down: replies don't automatically get sent to the followers of the harasser, and they don't show the victim's post to those followers unless the followers click through. Ultimately my claim is about risk: here's a feature that is convenient for some, but is used for harassment and abuse by others. The convenience doesn't cancel out the abuse: it's ethically irresponsible to implement quoting without mitigating the risks
(DIR) Post #APr4N71UH6WWU4l4We by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T07:33:58Z
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@djnavarro @estebanmoro I agree with risk assessment and mitigation, but there must be a reasonable compromise that goes beyond making it super annoying to link to posts. To me, this seems to punish the non-toxic people more than the toxic ones (who will find a way to be toxic anyway).
(DIR) Post #APr4grN6Az5djYHc92 by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T07:37:30Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro “just basic functionality” seems an odd take from a networkscience/complexity background to me: change the individual agent rules and you likely get different system level dynamics. It seems fair to me to put the burden of proof on those wishing to change a core design feature: Simulations and experiments on this are all possible- we can treat it as the empirical issue it is, and there are plenty of people on this platform with the relevant expertise.
(DIR) Post #APr4j62gbMLxoUnm7s by Norrodar@social.tchncs.de
2022-11-22T07:37:57Z
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@tiago touché :blobcatgiggle:
(DIR) Post #APr50bmbqMm9B7dGqG by djnavarro@fosstodon.org
2022-11-22T07:41:04Z
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@tiago @estebanmoro I agree there's probably a way of implementing a quoting feature that has appropriate mitigations (letting users control whether their posts can be quoted, and whether they want quote-posts to appear on their feeds, for instance)But if I may, can I suggest you're looking at the punishment framing the wrong way. The people who are being punished, when features are implemented without mitigation, are the *victims* of abuse. Their perspective needs to be the main focus, yes?
(DIR) Post #APr56PfzljOHMrJ4Vs by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T07:42:08Z
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@UlrikeHahn @djnavarro @estebanmoro But were systems-level simulations and data used to design the core feature in the first place? I don't think so.
(DIR) Post #APr64z7T7ZWQfS2XA0 by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T07:53:04Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro of course not, but they are now a core community norm. And the discourse they have created is much more pleasant than Twitter, as I think we all agree, so the set of currently implemented features has face validity. Hence, the burden of proof should lie with those pushing for change. That doesnt seem terribly radical a claim, no?
(DIR) Post #APrAG160VqvLncs8ZM by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T08:39:54Z
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@djnavarro @estebanmoro I don't believe we have a fundamental disagreement here — this is the usual dichotomy we face in society when abuse cannot be completely prevented. Knifes can be used to cook or stab. From the point of view of stab victims, a knife ban would be beneficial. But when considering the probability of someone getting stabbed, we still allow the sale of sharp knifes. But we forbid them in certain places, etc.This embodies a logic that, indeed, people who only want to cook would be unjustly punished by a flat knife ban. So we accept a small probability of there being stab victims. Individually, the harm to a stab victim cannot be possibly compared to a cook that cannot use a sharp knife. But we still make the calculation that forbidding all sharp knifes is unjust to all non-stabbers that want to use it.These trade-offs are tricky, of course, and should always be examined very closely.
(DIR) Post #APrAM9kvEDRQOYwB6G by TheMemeticist@mas.to
2022-11-22T01:14:38Z
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@djnavarro @estebanmoro @tiago make quote toots optional for the original poster maybe?
(DIR) Post #APrAMAGTKug7yPhNHE by djnavarro@fosstodon.org
2022-11-22T01:21:48Z
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@TheMemeticist @estebanmoro @tiago That would be a possible compromise. yeah. I can't speak for others but I wouldn't be as opposed to quoting if I had the power to opt out of my posts being quoted, *and* opt out of seeing quoted posts on my feed. I really disliked being shown quote tweets on twitter: far too often they were "outrage filter" or "dunking" type content that tended to get me emotionally worked up. It was harmful to my health, tbh, and I wouldn't like to repeat the experience here
(DIR) Post #APrAMAhlhQVrL4TAp6 by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-22T01:27:22Z
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@djnavarro @TheMemeticist @tiago I’m really sorry that happen to you. I’m trying to understand here: why the quote is different than the reply for that behavior? A possible solution could be that the user decides if her toots allow quotes or not?
(DIR) Post #APrAMB9m1IukjvZXTU by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-22T01:28:52Z
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@djnavarro @TheMemeticist @tiago sorry, I missed @TheMemeticist post proposing the same idea
(DIR) Post #APrAMBXAcJd5uUWDwW by djnavarro@fosstodon.org
2022-11-22T01:34:37Z
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@estebanmoro @TheMemeticist @tiago It's such a good suggestion that multiple people proposed it! 😀 But yeah, it was a really common experience for, um, a certain kind of person on the birdsite. One reason I'm trying to be a little vocal in pushing back at suggestions that mastodon include those sorts of features is that I'm acutely aware of how my other (non-professional) communities on here feel about the harassment potential of quoting and what their experiences have been
(DIR) Post #APrAMBzstYb9LXx9hQ by djnavarro@fosstodon.org
2022-11-22T01:36:16Z
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@estebanmoro @TheMemeticist @tiago (The same goes for proposals around having recommendation systems. A lot of people *don't* want their content to be automatically discovered and disseminated by a black box algorithm that they can't control... and they have good reasons for that)
(DIR) Post #APrAMCTf6qPwptsw76 by djnavarro@fosstodon.org
2022-11-22T01:40:07Z
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@estebanmoro @TheMemeticist @tiago Oh sorry, I realise I haven't replied to the comment about why quoting is different to replies or links. Mostly because the quoted content is displayed together with the commentary (making it visually and emotively salient), and it is shown to the quoters followers rather than the quoted person. Someone replying to me I can block if I have to. I can't easily block a quoter and all their followers in a single click
(DIR) Post #APrAMCs7dtz23lKTEu by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-22T01:49:38Z
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@TheMemeticist @djnavarro @tiago thank you Danielle. It understand now and see how allowing quotes by default can be problematic. I still believe we can build something better here. Including the possibility to opt-in to use algorithmic help to find/spread information
(DIR) Post #APrAMDONhxmtfoQEWO by retazomag@mastodon.sandwich.net
2022-11-22T08:22:20Z
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@estebanmoro @TheMemeticist @djnavarro @tiago It wouldn't surprise me if some Mastodon fork implements quote-boosts (or however they are going to call it). I don't think it would become a federated implementation, though (which I think is really good). As an example (far less controversial), misskey (another Fediverse platform) has emoji reactions and those don't work in Mastodon.
(DIR) Post #APrAMDwle7IFOSVh7Q by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T08:40:57Z
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@retazomag @estebanmoro @TheMemeticist @djnavarro I think that if anyone develops a plug-in system form mastodon, tweet quotes would be end up being adopted by the vast majority of instances.
(DIR) Post #APrAVtGfNw7s9dQXnU by jaztrophysicist@astrodon.social
2022-11-22T07:56:17Z
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@djnavarro @tiago @estebanmoro yes, QT is used way too often as a mob move to hang ppl in the public place and ratio any differing opinion. A very powerful tool for ppl who want to disinform and silence (and also to hijack attention). It's certainly not a feature i regret personally considering all the ugly stuff i've seen happening on twitter because of QT by dumb, corrupt public profiles with many followers...
(DIR) Post #APrAVtiJj8FBXOMctc by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T08:42:46Z
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@jaztrophysicist @djnavarro @estebanmoro How about the simple ability to link to a toot, and being able to follow that link without leaving your own instance? Seems innocuous to me.
(DIR) Post #APrApJwoPlEaP0PCe8 by jaztrophysicist@astrodon.social
2022-11-22T08:46:15Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro But the stabbing/cooking ratio on twitter is honestly off the charts, the place gives undue visibility and power it gives to nasty people. If you have ever tried to take part in a nuanced debate about any important subject on twitter (such as, say, public health, energy transition...) this has become impossible because of that. So I beg to differ here because the analogy isn't representative of the quantity and power of abuse being spout out on twitter bc of QT.
(DIR) Post #APrB1Jf9IdB2zfrbPM by retazomag@mastodon.sandwich.net
2022-11-22T08:48:25Z
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@tiago @estebanmoro @TheMemeticist @djnavarro Sure! That wouldn't surprise me. In the end, it is just the nature of the federated social network. Some instances may eventually decide to defederate / limit instances with features they don't like.
(DIR) Post #APrB8XtqlT89B0BfWK by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T08:49:47Z
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@UlrikeHahn @djnavarro @estebanmoro We don't really know that this causal relation is true. How do we know that the lack of quotes is responsible for the atmosphere here, and to what extent? I could be mainly due to the people that choose to come, moderation, or some other factor, not the lack of quotes.
(DIR) Post #APrBJqYpivqCEokHaK by jaztrophysicist@astrodon.social
2022-11-22T08:51:47Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro Actually I just tested on Tusky and it takes you to the post directly when you click, and you can then interact with that post (reply, fav, boost) as with any other post you see in your TL. I think this is a web interface limitation.
(DIR) Post #APrBWS3K9jHrzY1A2a by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T08:54:04Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro that's why I only made the modest empirical claim that the current design features collectively have face validity.It is a fact (from everything I've read) that those features were chosen *intentionally* precisely with viral dampening and the fostering of a positive discourse culture in mind. So I also don't find a null hypothesis whereby it's all just accident all that plausible.
(DIR) Post #APrByb8dy7OIHMvY6C by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T08:59:10Z
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@UlrikeHahn @djnavarro @estebanmoro I never suggested this null hypothesis. I'm also not questioning intent.I'm just questioning the validity of disabling the ability to link to posts.To be more concrete, I can think of a couple of scenarios where this could be used/abused:1. To comment while boosting. This could indeed be used to “dunk”, which is frowned upon.2. To link to other posts and conversations in the middle of a discussion.I've never seen an argument of the second situation promoting abuse. So maybe we should enable this at least?I also thing that scenario 1 has a lot of merit, so we should think about allowing it — but maybe with some constraints, or an opt-out feature.
(DIR) Post #APrCSxkeSU2r6FBTd2 by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T09:00:46Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro I understand that people with good intentions are wanting QT (and algorithmic changes), but one concern I have about the present discussion is whether we are listening to all the people we *should* be listening to in making these choices. And it's also precisely the self selection of those choosing to come that we will be able to rely on less going forward, so that too, for me, would count against immediate changes in functionality.
(DIR) Post #APrCSyEmeS9EbhHXay by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T09:04:38Z
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@UlrikeHahn @djnavarro @estebanmoro Sure, that's why we should have discussions about this, and enact changes (or not) in a transparent manner.
(DIR) Post #APrDEZcDUzKC8vwQK0 by djnavarro@fosstodon.org
2022-11-22T09:05:03Z
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@jaztrophysicist @tiago @estebanmoro For what it's worth @jaztrophysicist said what I wanted to say. There are contexts in which we place bans on knives (e.g., you can't take a knife onto a plane or into a nightclub) even though they're useful in some other context. But I don't think analogies help here: if I recast this as an analogy about guns, or drugs, etc, I could create whatever intuition I liked. So I think, since it's late here & we're all clear on what our views are, I'll say good night
(DIR) Post #APrDEa5djarPcBhvBQ by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T09:13:14Z
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@djnavarro @jaztrophysicist @estebanmoro To clarify: My point was not to compare knives to abusive posts, etc, only to demonstrate the general nature of the trade-off, which is independent of context.Of course, the outcome is context-dependent: doing the same calculation for nuclear weapons would lead to a different outcome than for knifes.My point was only that there is always the same calculation that needs to be made.
(DIR) Post #APrFbklyNk2nJdgYtc by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T09:05:14Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro I have opinions on this from multiple aspects of academic interest, but just on a personal note, I never used Twitter for my personal research (though I ended up running an information account @scibeh during the pandemic). And that's because I found Twitter terrifying. The mere possibility of a mis-slip and a resultant pile on was enough to put me off altogether and I don't think I was alone in this. And that wasn't about trolls or abuse but about the risk of 1/
(DIR) Post #APrFblOG5OfXENb8ZU by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T09:08:01Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro 2/ embarrassingly and humiliatingly making a very public error. The viral dampening features Mastodon currently has seem, to me, absolutely integral to making this a space where people are going to be comfortable exchanging half baked opinions and views as they try and puzzle out scientific ideas. That to me is where the real value of an online space for science discourse lies - not in someone telling me their new paper is out (useful as that is, it's replaceable)
(DIR) Post #APrFblpuQamqc8XDfc by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T09:11:17Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro 3/ I had the same experiences when we tried to set up reddits for transparent scientific exchange about the pandemic for behavioural scientists (again with SciBeh.org). It was almost impossible to get PhD students and ECRs to contribute posts and I feel I learned just how hard it is to create a space and a discourse culture where it is ok to be wrong. The more we can develop a culture where people can correct one another and be corrected without loss of face, and
(DIR) Post #APrFbmSu5bykZ4mMS0 by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T09:15:34Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro 4/ where one can feel that being corrected was a learning experience not a humiliation, the more useful and interesting our online space will be. Achieving that requires building a culture Twitter never had, and it requires lots of social softening of the potential impact of (constructive) criticism.QT, by definition, move a contribution *out* of the context in which it was made, rather than contributing to the exchange as it already exists.
(DIR) Post #APrFbmxOGGMi5d2hyC by UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org
2022-11-22T09:18:03Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro 5/ it's talking *about* a contribution, rather than talking with the person who made that contribution. It's not just that I think we should be conservative with respect to change (as I do)- I actually find the logic behind the decision not to have QTs plausible and directly relevant to what I personally would like this space to be.Others, of course, will have other views, and we will just have to see where the journey leads us.
(DIR) Post #APrFbnQoUrtvYsoCpc by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T09:39:49Z
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@UlrikeHahn @djnavarro @estebanmoro Yes, I see your point of view, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But there are situations where we want to talk *about* a post, and not to the author. Good examples of this are news or bot accounts that post articles. Surely we have no interest in dialoguing with these accounts.I think that there are ways of accommodating people's preferences that match their desired level of exposure.For example, as has already been suggested, users could be allowed to opt out of quotes.One could even differentiate between quotes that come in a reply from stand alone ones, and have a control for either one.
(DIR) Post #APrHInhZT3Qwo2iVlY by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T09:58:50Z
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@jaztrophysicist @djnavarro @estebanmoro Indeed these are fundamentally very simple and natural UI features, and some clients already implement them, but not all of them do, so we cannot rely on it.The lack of a proper link in the web interface seems to me like a deliberate omission.
(DIR) Post #APrMSeY0rC1N57lObI by jaztrophysicist@astrodon.social
2022-11-22T10:56:38Z
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@tiago @djnavarro @estebanmoro Unclear as the main mastodon developer, who is opposed to QT, marked that as suggestion on the GitHub.https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/8136
(DIR) Post #APrkilVx7VrWDp11vc by ulfaslak@mstdn.social
2022-11-22T15:28:24Z
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@tiago this is OS, should be just around the corner
(DIR) Post #APsH6eI8p503IuzJJ2 by rival@mastodon.social
2022-11-22T21:31:19Z
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@tiago If you want to share a post, you can retoot it/boost it. If you can say something about, you make another post. If you want to interact you reply. I can't see the need of that "feature" really. What would be?