Post APqUmrylEYtv0OSvyq by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
(DIR) More posts by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
(DIR) Post #APppT4rZWdY93IXy0O by llebrun@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T15:58:59Z
1 likes, 3 repeats
This is a big problem for Mastodon. Canadian journalist Erica Ifill just had her mastodon.online account suspended without explanation. She's been sharing stuff critical of Mastodon re: intersectional issues.I get the decentralized structure and idea that each server has its own rules. But this Reddit-style moderation, where moderators with god-complexes make mysterious and arbitrary decisions, is going to cause people migrating to Mastodon to flee in droves. https://www.presscheck.org/journalists/erica-ifill
(DIR) Post #APppT5UZBek30En6mm by newt@stereophonic.space
2022-11-21T17:12:13.068411Z
6 likes, 1 repeats
@llebrun wow people join mastodon and discover that the mods are more than trigger happy. Mastodon is mostly populated by the people who think Twitter wasn’t moderated hard enough. Hope this clears it a bit.
(DIR) Post #APppT6ckygt4VvdABs by llebrun@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T16:12:44Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I also don't think it is a serious solution to tell people, especially those from vulnerable communities, to just go find a server that respects them / allows them to criticize racism, etc.People are joining Mastodon in good faith, but if they encounter these problems once, twice or more, it starts to send them the message they're not welcome here. It becomes a real brand problem and platform integrity issue.
(DIR) Post #APppT8IckVyHi4E75U by llebrun@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T16:24:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
There are a lot of people with good intentions putting work and time into building this platform who are probably frazzled and burnt out by how quickly its growing (first among them, Mastodon's founder @Gargron no doubt).That said, I think it needs to continually ask itself if its structure and rules are advancing its mission and values or getting in the way of them? TBH, this kind of stuff seems at odds with what I like about Mastodon.
(DIR) Post #APpr9FRgfbfXzR6ztQ by Leyonhjelm@social.lovingexpressions.net
2022-11-21T17:30:47.240172Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@newt I like the part that portrays admins running their instance as a "God complex"@llebrun
(DIR) Post #APprYJROx6nfcYviCG by newt@stereophonic.space
2022-11-21T17:35:34.259612Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Leyonhjelm @llebrun have you even seen my bio? This is what running an instance does to you!
(DIR) Post #APprfOyCnGt0nQebmC by Leyonhjelm@social.lovingexpressions.net
2022-11-21T17:36:34.952871Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@newt I run an instance and I have a gondola complex :DDDDDDD@llebrun
(DIR) Post #APq21PfjrYY6t19PoO by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2022-11-21T19:31:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrunor we're going to have a shake out of the more strict moderation that allowed Mastodon to sustain but isn't as useful as we approach critical mass. And people are going to leave the bigger instances for smaller ones and hopefully the model will prove itself. I think the best we can do is be the best possible community members (support support support) and explainer/advocates on Twitter etc.
(DIR) Post #APqA6AUuVaTIu7req0 by PawelK@qoto.org
2022-11-21T21:03:25Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun Thats the problem with all of those:-censorship-authoritarianism of Gargron and Stux-no clean rules for bans-no transparent appeal procedures
(DIR) Post #APqAQ1aTLXML3qvyue by diresock@freespeechextremist.com
2022-11-21T21:07:02.824463Z
4 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun Maybe you should just move to an instance that isn't run by a bunch faggots.
(DIR) Post #APqBllMqQpSD56UPVA by ssfckdt@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-21T20:55:13Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun The diffrence between Mastodon and Twitter is that when this happens on Mastodon, you actually have options.When it happens on Twitter, you don't.Which one is better?Do we really trust the rich more than the general public?Eek.
(DIR) Post #APqBtST2aMpqmS3asq by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2022-11-21T21:23:32.747081Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @llebrun > Mastodon is mostly populated by the people who think Twitter wasn’t moderated hard enough....is it though? What *is* the actual %?
(DIR) Post #APqC19zp93U3oG40ht by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-11-21T21:24:52.644802Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@llebrun I don't give a damn about brand problems because this is a collection of independent servers, not a product, despite Gargron doing everything in his power to look like it is a thing he built.
(DIR) Post #APqC2WVcvapnvDaawK by thendrix@social.hendrixgames.com
2022-11-21T21:25:08.799079Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Maybe she should start her own social media. I think I remember hearing that solution pretty often for years.
(DIR) Post #APqC6aHqp9Y6nT59SC by RupertvonRipp@poa.st
2022-11-21T21:25:56.222973Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffcliff @newt @llebrun I think it applies to the other side of fedi tbh. That's the side the journos are getting a taste of.This side would give them a nervous breakdown.
(DIR) Post #APqC7cxuLrDbORFdtQ by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2022-11-21T21:26:05.988612Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun > It becomes a real brand problem and platform integrity issue.Fuck brands.https://twitter.com/jeffcliff1/status/992254628921135109
(DIR) Post #APqC9cRbGB3OM95aka by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2022-11-21T21:26:28.090123Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@RupertvonRipp @llebrun @newt The other side will, too, give them time
(DIR) Post #APqCCSgvybtayfcK5Q by cmscy@mstdn.social
2022-11-21T17:47:11Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun this does not even cover that realistically if you hunted for your views, YOU CAN'T SELFHOST, they will get access to the server on arrest, the only solution is to use a 3rd party server, but then you risk getting moderated for now reason... somehow this is more complex that it seems
(DIR) Post #APqCDb44KZzhEgymrg by cafkafk@pleroma.cafkafk.com
2022-11-21T19:52:43.973172Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun the actual problem is that 1. it's the fediverse not mastodon2. she and you apparently are unaware that the whole point is you can move to another instance or start your own in cases like this3. that you're not gonna make one because all you wanna do is bikeshed and beg the gods for help, making this place functionally equivalent to twitter:aqua_dab:
(DIR) Post #APqCElFDy3hN68kiFU by sean@blacksun.social
2022-11-21T20:09:31Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun There will no doubt be unfair bans. But how many times have social justice advocates been deplatformed on Twitter and FB?At least with Mastodon, she can find another instance. And hopefully take her followers with her, because that's how its designed.
(DIR) Post #APqCGBbxQGAfA846ts by ssfckdt@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-21T20:52:18Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@llebrun "brand problem?"Is everything a "brand" now?Does email have a "brand problem?" Does the internet itself have a "brand problem?" No one would ever say those things with seriousness.There isn't a "brand" to have a problem.No doubt a fundamental misconception based on decades of billionaire control of communication.And it seems increasingly like people are coming up with reasons why we should all go back to the false comfort of billionaire controlled communication.Hard pass.
(DIR) Post #APqCL9JrN4hdVBy0S8 by chainsaw_appreciator@poa.st
2022-11-21T21:24:00.822016Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun Sucks when it happens to you, huh?
(DIR) Post #APqCMmuBg2m2Z6jwbA by Sabex@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-21T21:28:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun > flee mastodonUm, good?
(DIR) Post #APqCN1zhZp67MYR3mC by straw@rdrama.cc
2022-11-21T21:28:54.162001Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun >But this Reddit-style moderation, where moderators with god-complexes make mysterious and arbitrary decisions, is going to cause people migrating to Mastodon to flee in droves.then join an instance that doesn't have that retard
(DIR) Post #APqCPcyt216oeeIBMG by straw@rdrama.cc
2022-11-21T21:29:22.257359Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun like rdrama.cc the premium non god complex instance with NO moderators (i am not real neither is nekobit or get glee)
(DIR) Post #APqCZYXuNNXrnMPKpU by job384@poa.st
2022-11-21T21:31:10.384783Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun @Gargron Stop sucking the mastodong and just wall yourself off like a real man. Hugbox narrative control days are never coming back. Embrace Total Journo Death. HH.
(DIR) Post #APqDXX3L3XrCXVhw0W by internetfreak@poa.st
2022-11-21T21:42:00.093372Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@chainsaw_appreciator @llebrun What a waste, the poor journalists... Now into the woodchipper journo scum
(DIR) Post #APqDfoxQN4XIO0tT9M by 444.koyu@koyu.space
2022-11-21T17:23:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun @Gargron you are again completely missing the point here. If you want to have moderation at your whims make your own instance or have people make one for you, but stop telling everyone that Mastodon will not be the future if you think that every instance is bad just because someone got booted off Eugen's instances. Like I said, make your own or join a small one like mine, but stop spreading misinformation about the fediverse. This is not how it works. Period.
(DIR) Post #APqDhT9KQKfHKTFPrk by layeredstrange@mstdn.social
2022-11-21T17:22:01Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun @Gargron You do realise that Gargron is the founder of Mastodon softwareHe's the admin of mastodon.online and mastodon.social.The decentralised social network consisting of different UI's including things like Mastodon, Plethora, etc is known as the Fediverse.Your issue is with moderation of the instance run and kept active by Gargron.Not Mastodon and not the Fediverse.
(DIR) Post #APqDuCxxu6ymu00Upk by kijekijikokwe@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T18:01:16Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@adammiller I agree with you. Rhetorical question: what percentage of Mastodon instance admins are BIPOC, disabled, and raised in abject poverty? Probably a lot more that at Tw/FB but probably not 51%. Therefore, even as a staunch supporter of the entire FOSS movement since the beginning, I feel like the ruling class of the tech community needs to swallow a bit of pride here and check their privilege as compared to their design principles - at times, at least.
(DIR) Post #APqEDxIVrwhA6B2BnM by Hyolobrika@gleasonator.com
2022-11-21T21:49:39.701830Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun @llebrun I wonder how it feels now that the shoe is on the other foot?
(DIR) Post #APqJCFxrzgytBXO6wi by mathlover@qoto.org
2022-11-21T22:45:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrunOn the one hand, I don't know if that's actually considered a good instance or not. On the other hand, we really need to call out instances that do this crap.Has anyone got a list of servers rated according to their moderation history? I might have to look into this.@Kingsrook
(DIR) Post #APqJE47J0z4r1EfECe by llebrun@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T21:58:43Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
Update: Good to see @Mastodon being responsive and I'm sure it was an innocent mistake, but these mistakes keep happening and they point to deeper issues with the approach to moderation over here that really need to be worked out. A lot of responsibility is left on the shoulders of volunteer mods. Things could be more transparent and less arbitrary.I hope people take some of these concerns that have been surfacing seriously rather than just tell people to go find a different server or whatever
(DIR) Post #APqJE5dbMOVNjgmXBI by llebrun@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T22:22:08Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
And here is @Gargron addressing the moderation issue outlined above.Some bigger questions about how these systems are set-up, but at least someone is stepping forward and showing accountability:https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/109383947978442853
(DIR) Post #APqKgrxjNqfLftU4v2 by Exspes@chudbuds.lol
2022-11-21T23:02:07.489486Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun Good, those niggers can fuck off back to bird site.
(DIR) Post #APqMDNCsqx6NnYdPTE by goddessvault@mstdn.ca
2022-11-21T16:15:43Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@llebrun Mastodon has rules against discrimination. The owners of those servers cannot always see them. It is up to us to flag these #Horrible actors and help kick them out.
(DIR) Post #APqPYg5s7vWMJpCnU8 by pthenq1@mastodon.la
2022-11-21T23:56:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun We will be happy if Erica Ifill wants to open an account in https://mastodon.la/We are lightly moderated and we just act in case of nazis, pederastians and hard bullies.
(DIR) Post #APqUmrylEYtv0OSvyq by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-22T00:55:15.649079Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
The power of liberty is something that's really hard to wrap one's head around, especially during the current authoritarian moment.The idea that you don't need to ask permission is huge. Worst case scenario you just create your own thing and connect to the rest of the world on your own. Individual instances can defederate with you, individual users can block you, but nobody can ban you. Meanwhile, you can block individual users or defederate with other instances, and you have that choice on your own as to what to do.Without the overarching mega-authority you can appeal to in order to crush your enemies.... you have to tolerate their existence and just disagree with them.
(DIR) Post #APqpzHHx3cxy0vCSSO by ssfckdt@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-22T04:52:00Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sj_zero @llebrun This is apparently too much to ask of people. They need to have someone do it for them. I.e., apparently, billionaires. #birdsite How depressing. Does it make sense to want a #safe world and then set up your model to be entirely #dependent on #billionaires?Not to me.#mastodon
(DIR) Post #APrsLvwWyo3nXT4UDI by nergal@linuxrocks.online
2022-11-22T02:35:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun consider to stop joining the largest instances.
(DIR) Post #APs0hTkzFsxE7oSM9Q by peter@thepit.social
2022-11-21T16:06:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun the last time something like this was making the rounds, it turned out to be a misunderstanding and they corrected it with complete transparency. you might want to hold off before joining a dogpile. https://twitter.com/mmasnick/status/1594575441276248064
(DIR) Post #APs0hUFTQXLBeMihfc by llebrun@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T16:41:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@peter It seems to me if a Black journalist who criticizes racism is given no explanation as to why their account was mysteriously suspended, that is a problem with how the moderation system is designed.I don't think anyone seriously thinks Erica was banned with good cause. She has every right question how the moderation system works.
(DIR) Post #APs0hUn9PKHNKoTbA8 by mattrose@fosstodon.org
2022-11-21T19:38:59Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@llebrun @peter so I did a little digging into this, and it looks like Eugen's instances (mastodon.social and mastodon.online) are having a real problem with moderators with an itchy ban trigger. Most instances do not have this problem, but as long as Eugen's instances are going to be the flagships, this is going to be a problem.
(DIR) Post #APuawdX1BGJjRzMxpw by caffeneko@indieweb.social
2022-11-21T16:23:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun There needs to be more visibility - so that ppl can make an easier choice in selecting servers. Like a yelp rating for servers in terms of moderation and stability etc.
(DIR) Post #APuawe9IsuwTMjHXVo by ian@keystroke.social
2022-11-21T18:22:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@caffeneko @llebrun @TheKinrar What about incorporating some kind of review/rating system with instances.social?
(DIR) Post #APuaweikl7IZ8frqlc by bri_seven@queer.party
2022-11-21T20:59:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ian @caffeneko @llebrun @TheKinrar that’s too easily abused to punish marginal communities
(DIR) Post #APuawf5ROlRkH2Ty88 by caffeneko@indieweb.social
2022-11-21T16:28:51Z
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@llebrun Maybe in interim users who have felt themselves discriminated against can post using hashtag # AdminAlert and share screenshots. Granted this is extra labor for victims, but given the decentralized nature of open-source Mastodon the more data ppl have to make a decision on how best to self-sort it will be good. Will also shine a light so rogue admins can clean up their act when they are in the wrong or risk their server being defederated by servers that don't abide by their actions.
(DIR) Post #APuawf8HEDiOPpoEYC by TheKinrar@mastodon.xyz
2022-11-24T00:23:01Z
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@bri_seven @ian @caffeneko @llebrun we could maybe allow for a free-form comment area?
(DIR) Post #APuawgfzUMHFCgafjs by caffeneko@indieweb.social
2022-11-21T16:29:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun Can also give admins the opportunity to share their own evidence to make their own cases for suspension in case of bad faith reports.
(DIR) Post #APuawiFpcaXa68MoF6 by caffeneko@indieweb.social
2022-11-21T16:32:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@llebrun Best would be for servers to have clear rules defined and TOS and suspend users for clear violations. I suspect for some they may benefit from DEI education and reflection.