Post APpuDIn2Tf07NoivZ2 by teixi@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by teixi@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #APpsDm4FQMvGHGs1YG by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T17:42:27Z
9 likes, 25 repeats
Again, a quick and dirty analysis, but if I have no bugs then the 1% largest #Mastodon instances accounts for 84% of all users.The top 5% accounts for 97% of all users. We can say that the system is effectively centralizing around a few instances, and this might be a problem for the overall stability and sustainability.@tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo #MastoStat #ComplexSystems
(DIR) Post #APpsFCXiTWmag9KnhY by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-21T17:43:23Z
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@manlius @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo Totally expected, but not very good news.
(DIR) Post #APpsZHyhyb8BKOXR7g by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T17:46:48Z
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@tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo not at all good news, Mastodon might be highly hyper-fragile to targeted attacks.
(DIR) Post #APpuDIn2Tf07NoivZ2 by teixi@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T18:05:22Z
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@tiago @manlius @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo When I read a post comparing instances to email servers, I do not reply to avoid confusing non-tech people, but sadly they are not decentralized anymore.Hopefully more implementations of activitypub protocol with minimal mastodon api usage, or else?» No hurray. Email is not distributed anymore. You just cannot create another first-class node of this network. «@cfenollosahttps://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-three-years-i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html
(DIR) Post #APpvvdKHaMRZlqyYa0 by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T18:01:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo With this high level of unequal resource distribution, the admins of the largest instances also will have costs that are not even comparable to the ones of the smallest instances: the scaling is simply not that simple. Sustainability, moderation, robustness to attacks: tons of potential problems for the #Mastodon system.#TwitterMigration #MigrationShock #ComplexSystems
(DIR) Post #APpvvdqBfjxrMnu2JE by lmrocha@qoto.org
2022-11-21T18:13:52Z
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I agree. I have been centered on qoto.org to avoid crowding the bigger ones --- also for historical reasons since I have been here since 2018 and like it :). But going forward, I think we have to push for a model where universities, companies and other organizations run their own instances? Of course that will probably imply greater speech regulation as those orgs will not want to be associated with completely free speech (e.g. much to my disappointment New York state employees like me at SUNY have some speech restrictions regarding Israel.) So what is self-organized solution?@manlius @tiago @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain
(DIR) Post #APpvveQLVIt7AwoufY by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-21T18:24:37Z
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@lmrocha @manlius @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrainI like the idea of public organizations running their own instances. It should be less of a problem in Europe than in the US regarding free speech issues (crazy times!).One big problem is the current pressure against facebook/twitter/etc to be liable for what every user posts, to force them to do moderation. This will backfire, since now small instances are very easy to intimidate legally.
(DIR) Post #APpvvgQm2gQ1Or2Hc8 by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T18:14:50Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo Not to mention that with this scaling, it will not be sustainable to pay a top instance with current approaches.. at some point it will be required to monetize the presence of so many users (eg, with advertisement), which is the opposite of what should happen by design.Instances have to self-organize to redirect users when above some capacity limit.
(DIR) Post #APpxFzI1jcXFdTBqxE by LuvUMeNeither@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T18:39:27Z
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@lmrocha @hirokisayama @manlius @estebanmoro @tiago @PessoaBrainBy the way, it illustrates very well that without state-funded moderation, this whole free-speech and anti-hatred legislation (although very welcome) will ultimately create market-entry costs and encourage monopolies led by the GAFAM
(DIR) Post #APpxchlT3ih5wVnFK4 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-21T18:43:38Z
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@LuvUMeNeither @lmrocha @hirokisayama @manlius @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain State-funded moderation sounds horrible!
(DIR) Post #APpy2XI6cd5UzMNPyC by LuvUMeNeither@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T18:48:14Z
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@manlius @hirokisayama @lmrocha @tiago @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain Well think of it like a subvention, as it is already the case in many countries regarding newspapers, tv shows, arts…
(DIR) Post #APpyAecjF9SS2ytURs by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-21T18:49:47Z
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@LuvUMeNeither @manlius @hirokisayama @lmrocha @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain I don't want the government deciding what is true, what is misinformation, etc. No institution should have that power. That's an Orwellian nightmare.
(DIR) Post #APpyeIJSl69dXU13b6 by LuvUMeNeither@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T18:55:06Z
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@tiago @manlius @PessoaBrain @lmrocha @hirokisayama @estebanmoro So… no regulations ? Because as is, it still is the case but it also provides a freerider-type of state-enforced monopoly
(DIR) Post #APpzMe6n5I1HsXEldo by koree@mastodon.ameth.org
2022-11-21T18:49:23Z
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@manlius @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo This is exactly why I created my own instance. Even if it’s just me and a few friends and family, that is burden I’m not putting on the big servers, while it also helps to encourage actual decentralization, distribution, and server diversity.
(DIR) Post #APpzMjuxUC7VtZkP20 by paninid@mastodon.world
2022-11-21T18:58:56Z
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@tiago @PessoaBrain @estebanmoro @lmrocha @hirokisayama @koree @manlius @danielemarinazzo is it feasible for “mass decentralization” of non-technical instance operators without relying on Big Tech (AWS, Google, etc)?
(DIR) Post #APpzMkRvVcUXXpAjQ0 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-21T19:03:04Z
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@paninid @PessoaBrain @estebanmoro @lmrocha @hirokisayama @koree @manlius @danielemarinazzo That's the big question... We don't want to serve high-res video, just messages and images.If the bitorrent system tells us anything, it's that there is quite a bit of p2p bandwidth lying around.
(DIR) Post #APq072NZBAJ8TPCm4u by DanielMGessel@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T17:46:28Z
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@manlius That's mostly what I think we'd expect, especially given the mad rush that's been happening. The next phase might include commercial operators, assuming licensing doesn't prohibit it?
(DIR) Post #APq072pZV2i1sGJ8jI by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T17:48:14Z
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@DanielMGessel I think that the ones studying (stochastic) dynamical systems of this type were expecting something like this. But the numbers are concerning, since there is an effective centralization that require a careful management of resources.
(DIR) Post #APq073IzjeFFLW4dai by DanielMGessel@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T18:06:08Z
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@manlius I don't quite understand: existing websites support half a billion users or more. I don't know if the Mastodon SW as is can be effectively deployed on a sufficiently large cluster, but isn't it open source? I don't know the license specifics, but I just imagine some startup getting gazillions and extending the SW.
(DIR) Post #APq074212GG1b98alU by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T18:07:55Z
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@DanielMGessel Sure that can be done, it's not that one the issue.The issue is relying on self-hosted or self-paid instances: the features of this interconnected system do not suggest that this can be feasible or robust.
(DIR) Post #APq074jyOpQ3nThhHU by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T19:11:27Z
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@manlius @DanielMGessel what exactly is not robust or feasible?
(DIR) Post #APq0aH31ii8AMiXTGq by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T19:16:47Z
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@lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @manlius @tiago @estebanmoro @danielemarinazzo I can hardly believe that raw cost of infra is a problem. Even with Mastodon we are talking ca 2ct/user/month for data center costs. And there are much more efficient options than Mastodon, e.g. Pleroma.The critical part imho is handling moderation and legal risks. Sth most techy admins are not well prepared for.
(DIR) Post #APq0y9igcKqQaVPdgG by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-21T19:20:30Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @manlius @tiago @danielemarinazzo and I think that would be specially problematic for small servers.
(DIR) Post #APq11szKlaPvr1yhCS by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T19:21:47Z
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@PessoaBrain @hirokisayama @estebanmoro @manlius @tiago @danielemarinazzo @lmrocha There is an opportunity for insurers here 🙈
(DIR) Post #APq1Iww3LQRD1Ea0yO by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-21T19:24:52Z
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@estebanmoro @FroehlichMarcel @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @manlius @danielemarinazzo Small servers have less exposure, however... If it's only a handful of people, it's unlikely to be targeted. But in a larger group, all it takes is one user to trigger a litigation threat.
(DIR) Post #APq1sFhXZ6UjM7cplI by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T19:31:17Z
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@manlius @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain @lmrocha @tiago @hirokisayama @danielemarinazzo Think again, predatory lawyers take any opportunity to squeeze weak actors at scale. There are whole cottage industries around different topics. Stupid stuff, like form errors in boilerplate Impressum pages etc.
(DIR) Post #APq2QZXsI9BQkNTA8W by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-21T19:37:28Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @manlius @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain @lmrocha @hirokisayama @danielemarinazzo Regardless, an instance with 100 users has a smaller risk than one with 100K.For a large number of small instances, the effects of a shutdown are also more contained, and the cost for the predatory industry increases.
(DIR) Post #APq2UJjwzsh2t0u5AW by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T19:38:09Z
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@tiago @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @manlius @lmrocha @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo True, we are talking about the network.
(DIR) Post #APq2z50BqJn09cATjs by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T19:43:43Z
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@PessoaBrain @hirokisayama @lmrocha @tiago @manlius @estebanmoro @danielemarinazzo When many smaller instances are desirable, then mitigating actions should ease the job of running one: Howto docs, templates, PaaS offerings, governance blueprints, grants, free training on regulatory pitfalls, insurance schemes, etc.
(DIR) Post #APq6RfXrrxjTSgFEI4 by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2022-11-21T20:22:29.351881Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
Did you count all fediverse or just Mastdon? .. and if you did, could you please stop saying Mastodon Instance?! Pleroma and Misskey are not minor players here. The Fediverse is not Mastodon.
(DIR) Post #APq6i5CoETlVgADmng by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-11-21T20:25:27.171148Z
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@djsumdog @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain @manlius @tiago Also peertube. <3
(DIR) Post #APq6idEPj1FdCzEY1Q by admin@mastodon.tech
2022-11-21T20:25:33.622268Z
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What are the top 5?
(DIR) Post #APq6jTYlAcQJV99WxE by DanielMGessel@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T20:25:41Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @manlius Self-hosted/self-paid instances are assumed to be low-cost/low-overhead. Can they handle, say, 10M+ users on that instance? Can they handle running user filters on posts from 500M accounts around the world?
(DIR) Post #APq6tIoPz3o144A8PY by PhenomX6@fedi.pawlicker.com
2022-11-21T20:27:15.221831Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @tiago Tumblr just announced they're gonna federate too.
(DIR) Post #APq717t8Tyl3V96FbE by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2022-11-21T20:28:53.170674Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
I was talking about the text posting ones, but yea, Peertube, Pixelfed, Lemmy and a bunch of others.
(DIR) Post #APq74vxYm6WXfCz7GC by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T20:29:36Z
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@DanielMGessel @manlius The average number of users over the approx 40000 servers is <100. Why should they worry about such scenarios? Not what most of them aim to do at all.
(DIR) Post #APq77aiMDjP4dq8nyK by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2022-11-21T20:30:04.042068Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
oh hey look, we're both banned on xyz so he'll never see our statements ...
(DIR) Post #APq7Pp8fKVsEaf8lrU by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T20:32:25Z
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@admin @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain @tiago
(DIR) Post #APq7R6w0ePHi4ZpnF2 by charliebrownau@pieville.net
2022-11-21T20:33:36Z
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@PhenomX6 @djsumdog @tiago * Tumblr CEO - David Karp(Ashkenazi Jew)
(DIR) Post #APq7WysNWcf8oiw27M by admin@mastodon.tech
2022-11-21T20:34:38.528884Z
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Thanks!
(DIR) Post #APq7XP9znkCgKtNTBg by PhenomX6@fedi.pawlicker.com
2022-11-21T20:34:42.950738Z
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@charliebrownau @djsumdog @tiago Their current owner/CEO was raised catholic.https://ma.tt/2006/10/cardinal-blogging/
(DIR) Post #APq7ZnBXRrNPQXEn8i by PhenomX6@fedi.pawlicker.com
2022-11-21T20:35:08.027113Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@charliebrownau @djsumdog @tiago Also he's said that porn is not coming back to Tumblr no matter what either.
(DIR) Post #APq7rtSgqnlk6dtKe8 by charliebrownau@pieville.net
2022-11-21T20:38:27Z
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@PhenomX6 @djsumdog @tiago First ((( catholic ))) priest was a JewCatholic, Islam, Christianityall Jewish creations to control the goyim on this realm for the last 500 years
(DIR) Post #APq88idkL3LTSy5OBU by PhenomX6@fedi.pawlicker.com
2022-11-21T20:41:22.637367Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@djsumdog @7 @tiago time for this image again
(DIR) Post #APq8SllsPHPwy8Rvvc by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T20:45:06Z
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@hirokisayama @danielemarinazzo @manlius @PessoaBrain @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro Eventually Fediverse may run into scaling problems because communication is growing not linear but rather quadratic with number of servers.
(DIR) Post #APq9UdjJNKKQYvhniS by DanielMGessel@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T20:56:24Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @manlius No worries. Some seem to think that "big website" is collapsing (some large institutions are freaking out). If they all sign up on a select few of the 140 listed on joinmastodon.org, those servers may find their load unmanageable. More generally, a small server (perhaps with pay-as-you-go bandwidth) is unlikely to make every post in the "Fediverse" findable by search if there are 500M total users, meaning isolated islands or dependence on large search providers.
(DIR) Post #APq9pSl3MboMcBRvAO by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T21:00:24Z
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@DanielMGessel @manlius No server is obliged to do that. Smart admins will close sign-up much earlier. Could be that some people will find it a bit hard to quickly spot a convenient option, but that’s life. There is no search across the Fediverse by design.
(DIR) Post #APqCRWU89ecX5QoHnk by DanielMGessel@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T21:29:34Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @manlius Now that's interesting: I would not have expected to have to go outside the Fediverse to search the Fediverse. Good to know!
(DIR) Post #APqChqY1KV2pwYPgMi by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T21:32:39Z
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@DanielMGessel @manlius You are not supposed to search it and admins protect their servers from crawlers. This is designed to be a space where you don’t risk getting harassed by others that throw random keywords at a search engine.
(DIR) Post #APqE0SvDUhK87phmPw by DanielMGessel@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-21T21:47:01Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @manlius I clearly don't have the same problems as you! I've been harassed by people on Twitter and Mastodon, but not from people who found me on search engines. It sounds like you created the Fediverse with specific social and technical goals I'm simply not aware of. I'll keep that in mind.
(DIR) Post #APqENBHvDq5w5z9nHs by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-21T21:51:20Z
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@DanielMGessel @manlius I didn’t design it, just explaining why it is how it is. They never tried to be like Twitter, rather they put a lot of effort into making it rather different to Twitter.
(DIR) Post #APqS8MSWny3BkxwgGO by the_roamer@mastodonapp.uk
2022-11-22T00:25:30Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @DanielMGessel @manlius Hello. Really interesting points. Please forgive my barging in. May I ask you about implications for an individual's server choice?I am currently with a very large instance that has grown by factor 10 within weeks. I have the option to transfer to an established, well-moderated smaller instance that has kept its growth limited. I am eager to go small. Would the scaling & fragmentation issues that you mention suggest to stay large or go small?
(DIR) Post #APqSYNeL08ugygsO6y by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-22T00:30:13Z
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@the_roamer @DanielMGessel @manlius Go small, because you want it :)If you don't like it, you can move on again, later. Everything works fine so far.
(DIR) Post #APqSelg8ZheJEwlPtY by the_roamer@mastodonapp.uk
2022-11-22T00:31:21Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @DanielMGessel @manlius Thanks for your comment, appreciated!
(DIR) Post #APrTDKMsIktvpaC276 by filobus@mastodon.uno
2022-11-22T12:12:15Z
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@tiago @LuvUMeNeither @manlius @hirokisayama @lmrocha @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain well libraries are managed by state, it's not a problem as they are not the only source, and they help spread culture and knowledge.There could be problems, but it's nothing Orwellian
(DIR) Post #APrWllFJAyXatqlTH6 by WorldImagining@mastodon.social
2022-11-22T12:48:53Z
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@manlius @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo As soon as someone can propose a workable solution to the problem of losing posts when migrating to another instance, users will happily migrate.
(DIR) Post #APrWlm544XwPUMynwm by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T12:52:09Z
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@WorldImagining @manlius @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo what's the point of keeping old posts around if most instances will not let you even search through them?
(DIR) Post #APrWwvPVizsNbsrOFc by WorldImagining@mastodon.social
2022-11-22T12:54:10Z
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@tiago @manlius @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo Regardless of whether there's a point to it or not (a debatable issue indeed), users will still be more inclined to migrate if there is a workable solution to the problem.
(DIR) Post #APrXi8sRTRBszDuKDQ by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T13:02:41Z
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@WorldImagining @manlius @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo That's very unlikely to ever be implemented. It would require a massive re-synchronization between instances to update the reference to every post, reply, etc. It would need to involve every instance that ever saw any given post. An error or interrupted process would leave a bunch of duplicated messages all over the place. It would also be a good way to conduct a DDOS attack.
(DIR) Post #APrY7f0d91jlsjuCcC by WorldImagining@mastodon.social
2022-11-22T13:07:17Z
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@tiago Yup, all true. But it's easy to see, both here and over on twitter, that this fact is a real obstacle to people migrating. And also in many cases a cause of instant regret after a migration, since it seems that many of the tutorials about how to migrate either gloss over or else omit entirely, rather than emphasizing, this aspect.
(DIR) Post #APrtibgQZSdZJpukzo by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-22T17:09:19Z
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@WorldImagining @manlius @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo Those posts are not lost, they just stay in place. You can visit your old profile and browse these old posts just as before.You cannot change the server of statuus that got a permanent identifier bound to the server - makes no sense, as there is no concept of user ID independent of a server.
(DIR) Post #APruWZH1nv66KBrDW4 by WorldImagining@mastodon.social
2022-11-22T17:18:18Z
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@FroehlichMarcel Thanks for that reply Marcel, you've expressed that very clearly. People in general have gotten into their heads the idea that they will lose their posts, and any tutorials on instance migration I've looked up out of curiosity have barely broached this dimension.
(DIR) Post #APrvIFTei3bMpMV2au by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-22T17:26:58Z
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@WorldImagining There is one "solution" I could imagine:Use a custom client, instead of the web frontend that saves copies of all toots you send and provides a local search index on the history of those, independent of the account they were sent to. But I have no idea, if such a client exists.
(DIR) Post #APrvatfK1toCgIqgGu by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-22T17:30:20Z
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@WorldImagining There is certainly always the risk that the old server may be discontinued at some point. Then the old stuff is definitely gone.
(DIR) Post #APrxBhjNSt0yKrrQ5w by IPuyosa@mastodon.social
2022-11-22T16:11:35Z
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@manlius Rather than foreseeing the problems that this dynamics generates, I am interested in understanding what the benefits or satisfactions that this behavior gives us are. For what purpose do we form communities this way?
(DIR) Post #APrxBiJXIRwE90mISG by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T17:48:09Z
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@IPuyosa @manliusI think the logic is actually very simple. The biggest the community it is, the largest is the probability that we hear about it. This is called the “rich get richer” effect and it results in a distribution exactly like the one seen.So I don't think people derive satisfaction from this, they just go with the first thing they find.One could postulate that people try to go with the most “official” or most popular instance on purpose, but we don't actually need to assume this to explain what we see.
(DIR) Post #APrz3DKWoIfldnJhhI by vortex_egg@ioc.exchange
2022-11-22T18:09:00Z
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@tiago @IPuyosa @manlius From an information science perspective, it could be a kind of satisficing behavior. One complaint people have when joining fedi is that it’s hard to know what instance to pick. A large, official-looking instance acts as peer-proof of making an informed decision, which lets people halt their information seeking and get on with the sign-up process.
(DIR) Post #APrzPWLOnU7iyzMQYy by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-22T18:13:05Z
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@vortex_egg @IPuyosa @manlius But this would lead to a “winner takes all” situation, where there is one very big instance, and several much smaller ones.But this is not what we observe. Instead, there is a distribution that follows something close to a “power law,” which is what the “rich get richer” effect predicts.
(DIR) Post #APrzcKxSRSLdQxH27U by vortex_egg@ioc.exchange
2022-11-22T18:15:22Z
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@tiago @IPuyosa @manlius Well, it's not deterministic or guaranteed. Just guessing that it could be a behavioral factor for a decent amount of individuals that contributes to whatever other dynamics are going on.
(DIR) Post #APsPXJlg2K6r6T1xmi by IPuyosa@mastodon.social
2022-11-22T23:05:49Z
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@tiago I am familiar with preferential attachment (the “rich get richer” effect). Still, I think people have agency, and their actions are driven by some perceived benefit. @manlius
(DIR) Post #APt0tzzTQnxGjGA7ge by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-23T06:04:24Z
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@aleabdo you are not using mastodon, but hubzilla/zot, which has a different model. But I wonder what would happen if I reply to a post of yours done pre-migration from mastodon — would you see the reply in your new account?And what would have happened if someone from a different hubzilla server had replied to one of your older posts?The idea of simply copying the posts is feasible, but I wonder how would the cross-server synchronization work.But now that I think more about it, mastodon has an edit button, which means it can change the content of posts, and propagate it across the entire network. I think this could be used to propagate the change of account to a new server... But I still think this would be quite a load on the network if a lot of people start migrating all their posts.
(DIR) Post #APuKjlJjK8viZ9zdRI by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-23T21:21:18Z
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@aleabdo Very interesting! It's quite amazing how good these protocols are. While everyone was at their corporate silos, the internet evolved in the underworld!
(DIR) Post #AQ2nGZ02UdPhtvtKxk by louis@emacs.ch
2022-11-25T08:26:05Z
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@manlius @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo more users = more donations = money, money, money
(DIR) Post #AQ2nGZZUMplnfsTeDY by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-25T10:09:42Z
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@louis @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo It does not work that way.Say that on avg you get 1$/user, accounting for the fact that many dont donate and other donate more than 1$): so the incoming money will scale with N (the number of users)Now say that costs scale as N^1.5: your instance will quickly not be sustainable.
(DIR) Post #AQ2nGa1UgiAh4ja0rw by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-27T23:03:15Z
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@manlius @louis @tiago @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo Great point @manlius, but it seems that the cost per user is actually sublinear with the number of users https://masto.host/pricing/
(DIR) Post #AQ2nGaSR4XiqQIBWrY by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-27T23:08:03Z
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@estebanmoro @louis @tiago @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo for servers with less than 2000 users, it seems so.What about above that?
(DIR) Post #AQ2nGb073Kf26jwQM4 by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-27T23:18:48Z
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@hirokisayama @danielemarinazzo @PessoaBrain @manlius @louis @estebanmoro @lmrocha @tiago With the current design cost will grow with total number of servers (beyond linear) not just with users per server.
(DIR) Post #AQ2q3sV4yjjYTm3Lcm by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-27T23:21:17Z
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@manlius @louis @tiago @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo Looking at the costs reported in masto.host there seems to be an sqrt law up to 2000. I don't know if something weird would start happening >2000, but looking at this point and the servers' specifications, I don't see why it should be. Why are you saying that? Maybe @mszll can have more information since he ran a large server for a large number of users of a massive-online game.
(DIR) Post #AQ2q3tCgMcc0f0SAaW by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-27T23:50:08Z
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@estebanmoro @manlius @louis @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo @mszll It's not wise to extrapolate like this, since I'm pretty sure these costs do not account for having to scale *up* the hardware — they probably correspond to virtual servers that subdivide a moderate size machine. As soon as a single machine is filled up, you need to add more RAM and CPU cores and these costs definitely do not increase linearity, and they are upper bounded. A truly large instance will require multiple servers, with offloading, redundancy, etc.Furthermore, it's not just about hardware costs (and bandwidth!), but more users mean more content moderation, and more complex configuration. You will need a team of admins for truly large instances.
(DIR) Post #AQ2r6YvIK3NKaJ9uDI by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-28T00:01:51Z
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@hirokisayama @danielemarinazzo @PessoaBrain @manlius @louis @estebanmoro @lmrocha @tiago here is an interesting thread on such questions: https://infosec.exchange/@WPalant/109313252009321388
(DIR) Post #AQ2sk4St5IR9eqH5lI by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-28T00:19:59Z
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@FroehlichMarcel @hirokisayama @danielemarinazzo @PessoaBrain @manlius @louis @lmrocha @tiago this is interesting. It will be the federated part that will make the cost of the server to increase superlinearly
(DIR) Post #AQ3kX95HzeeBkEWS2q by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-27T23:42:15Z
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@estebanmoro @louis @tiago @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo @mszll ok, but the issue is about instances getting larger and larger. Estimating scaling from data up to 2000 users does not help, since below 2k users the instance is rather small and the same hardware can be used.Mastodon resources scale horizontally and vertically, so we need more info.
(DIR) Post #AQ3kX9q5Bg4s5MPoyu by estebanmoro@datasci.social
2022-11-28T01:28:23Z
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@manlius @louis @tiago @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo @mszll still, isn’t it interesting that the cost scales as the sqrt of users in a single instance? I wonder why 🤔
(DIR) Post #AQ3kXAMLFjsjhPVaGO by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-28T10:22:52Z
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@estebanmoro @manlius @louis @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo @mszll Maybe it's an illusion from restricting to only a couple of orders of magnitude? Even exponential increase can look algebraic for a small enough range.
(DIR) Post #AQ3nPR31cavh0GTjCC by mszll@datasci.social
2022-11-28T09:15:09Z
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@estebanmoro @manlius @louis @tiago @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo In my experience (running my own software, and only up to 15k active users) server costs are negligible compared to revenues, so this discussion seems irrelevant. I have no idea about scaling of server costs for Mastodon though, but I wouldn't expect that to be more than sublinear (but who knows). Scaling of moderation efforts is probably a more relevant question, which is harder to grasp.
(DIR) Post #AQ3nPRV1wTKaP7a5qa by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-28T10:16:30Z
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@mszll @estebanmoro @louis @tiago @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo Everyone is missing the point. You mentioned the right word: REVENUES.I started from assuming that Mastodon instances would remain free of charge, advertisement etc, ie generating NO REVENUES. So the discussion is pertinent, if we frame into relying just on donations from users: if donations scale slower than costs (whatever their scaling!), there's a problem.
(DIR) Post #AQ3nPS0w1qqs04VZZo by mszll@datasci.social
2022-11-28T10:50:27Z
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@manlius @estebanmoro @louis @tiago @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo by revenues I meant donations (in the mastodon case), sorry I was unclear.
(DIR) Post #AQ3nPSW89rnzYp6UCW by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-28T10:55:05Z
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@mszll @manlius @estebanmoro @louis @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo How do you assume the donations scale to render server costs irrelevant for larger instances?The larger mastodon instance (mastodon.social) finances itself via Patreon, but not only they are forced to cap the number of users, but they also receive donations in the name on the whole mastodon project.
(DIR) Post #AQ3nn9T4dPDLQjyHsu by mszll@datasci.social
2022-11-28T10:59:24Z
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@tiago @manlius @estebanmoro @louis @lmrocha @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo Just from my own experience running a MMOG, where the only revenues came from something equivalent to user donations (limited to ~3 EUR/month!). So if you do the same community building effort in Mastodon, I wouldn't expect this to be very different here (but of course that's all just speculation).
(DIR) Post #AQ4CO80VQUiwVwm1Y0 by JeffGrigg@mastodon.social
2022-11-28T15:35:00Z
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@FroehlichMarcel Given the numbers above, that's about 1600 users per server, on the top 1% of servers.But the 640,000 users are not evenly distributed across these ~400 servers, so some are clearly more heavily loaded.
(DIR) Post #AQ4D1oR9bhjFOyA2cK by FroehlichMarcel@sigmoid.social
2022-11-28T15:42:13Z
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@JeffGrigg I guess the top servers host many more people. See https://mastodonservers.net/servers/top
(DIR) Post #AQ4DGmFC2hYwwbhaoS by JeffGrigg@mastodon.social
2022-11-28T15:44:55Z
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@FroehlichMarcel Yes: Approaching a million users on the top two servers. And hundreds of thousands on several others. That's a lot.
(DIR) Post #AQ6EOS5ZLrO31MLO1A by dormouse@mas.to
2022-11-29T15:01:54Z
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@manliusFrom the graph you shared I can only read that the biggest instance, which is 0.25 % of *something*, ha almost 1 % of all users.That's not really ehat you describe in your post.@tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo @mel
(DIR) Post #AQ6EOSiuzYrWzOkoLo by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T15:06:54Z
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@dormouse @manlius @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo @mel The legend says % but the numbers correspond to fractions, i.e. 1.0 = 100%.
(DIR) Post #AQ6HMhBuWwo38wAFJQ by manlius@mathstodon.xyz
2022-11-29T15:40:06Z
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@tiago @dormouse @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain @danielemarinazzo @mel exactly, just a typo in the y label. That's correctly reported in the text of the post.
(DIR) Post #AQ6YQKlzWKzpzgMSrg by a7@miss.mouse.services
2022-11-29T18:51:22.189Z
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@djsumdog@djsumdog.com mastiverse
(DIR) Post #AQ6YfnTN68vJLe1dU8 by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2022-11-29T18:54:06.134072Z
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@manlius @estebanmoro I don't know if this is the right perspective, looking at my federated timeline, the posts are from all over the fediverse with no clear dominance and so if the top instances shut their door tomorrow it won't have much of an effect on our users. it would be interesting to see some real numbers on this, if prolific posters and people that have a lot of follows are more diversified. (they certainly would know how to move if shit hit the fan)
(DIR) Post #AQ6YpHQX6A22r7DfhA by maxmustermann@shitposter.club
2022-11-29T18:55:53.148663Z
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@manlius @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain Cool. Not behind a blocklist. I blame poor understanding and Gargrons marketing for this. It wasn't even intended to be like this.
(DIR) Post #AQ6Z7OPzqLrzkebbGq by shironeko@fedi.tesaguri.club
2022-11-29T18:59:06.827369Z
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@manlius follows that are within an instance would also need to be taken out since those have no effect on the federation.
(DIR) Post #AQ6ZMLJJgEKkSNbr3g by mangeurdenuage@shitposter.club
2022-11-29T19:00:40.359659Z
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@manlius @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @hirokisayama @PessoaBrain >there isn't enough computer techs compared to the number of digitally illiterate users:surprised_pikachu:
(DIR) Post #AQ6ioIw50COems9Hhw by mistermonster@freespeechextremist.com
2022-11-29T20:47:47.203717Z
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@manliusIt's just a Pareto distribution. It's naturally occurring, there's no efficient tradeoff to prevent this from happening, anything you try will cause more externalities than just allowing it to happen.If you're on a server that blocks access to someone you'd like to talk to, move to one that will let you. @tiago @lmrocha @estebanmoro @PessoaBrain
(DIR) Post #AQC25SFaUexvWCxrEW by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-12-02T10:17:19.318469Z
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I really get a kick out of people saying the fediverse is too hard to use, coming from people who don't even run their own instance.
(DIR) Post #AQC2FLxOkNFAtbB07s by selea@social.linux.pizza
2022-12-02T10:18:55Z
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@jeremy They already do. The thing is, that instances listed there must have set clear rules - many instances does not, or does not even bother.@manlius
(DIR) Post #AQC360pq0aCajdkZ8a by mashbooq@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T17:55:08Z
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@manlius @DanielMGessel fwiw I'm on the largest instance right now because I don't have time to set up my own instance, but I plan to migrate to a self-managed one in the coming months
(DIR) Post #AQC3PNFssK3VlvAJKy by karim@geiger.ee
2022-12-02T10:31:58Z
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@selea @jeremy @manlius we have applied to be listed with https://craftodon.social, following these rules, but have not got a response. It also states that they do not want smaller instances to apply. I understand why: Scaling is difficult and you can’t expect everyone to be able to. But it’s part of the problem.
(DIR) Post #AQC44RV9zZ40oZtSca by selea@social.linux.pizza
2022-12-02T10:39:27Z
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@karim @jeremy @manlius The lack of response is most likely because they are overloaded or something.Just ask them again, dont make any assumptions :)
(DIR) Post #AQC4HlfKKlzV7J0F96 by karim@geiger.ee
2022-12-02T10:41:50Z
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@jeremy @manlius @selea I’m sure they are overloaded. But again, part of the problem. It doesn’t help if there are good intentions everywhere but not enough people to follow through with them. The fact is that this listing is lacking *a lot* of good instances. That’s why pages like https://instances.social exist.
(DIR) Post #AQC4S76RU9YGV1cRu4 by karim@geiger.ee
2022-12-02T10:43:43Z
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@manlius @selea @jeremy I mean, just look at the list. They list 75 servers. That’s not many servers, and you can’t argue „they have probably been overloaded for the last 3 years“ here.
(DIR) Post #AQC4dYl30OJ7SH4O80 by selea@social.linux.pizza
2022-12-02T10:45:48Z
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@karim @manlius @jeremy I dont know, mine got listed even if it was small.
(DIR) Post #AQC4j2dhKmRzZwFJsO by selea@social.linux.pizza
2022-12-02T10:46:48Z
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@karim @manlius @jeremy Also, the list is bigger - it just shows the ones with registrations open at the moment.