Post APoOKSDcSpsG2OjXuK by J12t@social.coop
(DIR) More posts by J12t@social.coop
(DIR) Post #APoClKHsrSk7oAm8gK by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-20T21:55:56Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
Should developers publish federation protocols that aren't ActivityPub or ActivityPub extensions?
(DIR) Post #APoCztpRW58M5kQBrE by a@social.exozy.me
2022-11-20T22:26:29Z
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@evan Hot take here: ActivityPub is kind of a "worse is better" protocol and has quite a lot of flaws, which is why I'm excited about alternative federated or distributed protocols like https://spritelyproject.org/However, most of my development work (Gitea federation, ForgeFed, FEPs) are all for ActivityPub and extensions, because that's where the ecosystem momentum is right now.
(DIR) Post #APoHUdV6fnWqFFoyVE by bobwyman@mastodon.social
2022-11-20T22:09:06Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@evan Developers of federation systems, who believe that ActivityPub cannot address their needs, should explain why that is and give others the opportunity to propose conforming solutions. The primary ethical imperative should be to avoid publishing a new protocol unless it is certain that ActivityPub cannot be reasonably extended to address the unmet need. In the unlikely case that a new protocol is appropriate, all should be done to ensure maximum reasonable interoperability.
(DIR) Post #APoHXb9rq5rvqfIbwW by OliviaVespera@spacey.space
2022-11-20T22:06:15Z
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@evan I don't think i understand the question. what can they make?
(DIR) Post #APoHXbibkveraPYM5o by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-20T22:45:42Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@OliviaVespera federation protocols defines how different programs talk to each other. ActivityPub is the protocol that Mastodon uses.I'm asking, should anyone be working on or promoting protocols that aren't closely-related to ActivityPub right now?
(DIR) Post #APoHY4caIP4TE7xSEK by J12t@social.coop
2022-11-20T22:18:59Z
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@bobwyman @evan Have you talked to the BlueSky folks? 🙂
(DIR) Post #APoHY5HhpVxrHfCIKG by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-20T23:03:49Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@J12t @bobwyman BlueSky is the prime example right now
(DIR) Post #APoHZ1dgrw0qGdvfe4 by cafkafk@pleroma.cafkafk.com
2022-11-20T22:25:37.840850Z
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@evan should is one of those words that I generally disagree with
(DIR) Post #APoHZ2C4o5WBzI18F6 by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-20T22:42:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cafkafk ooh then there's an RFC that you're really not going to like
(DIR) Post #APoOKSDcSpsG2OjXuK by J12t@social.coop
2022-11-20T23:18:29Z
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@evan @bobwyman I like a bunch, too. I wonder whether somebody brave could come up with a gradual migration protocol -- possibly practically impossible, but both content storage and identity layer are interesting. E.g. because it appears the cost of the whole "fediverse" at Twitter-scale appears to be potentially much lower with the BlueSky approach. (haven't done the math, just a hunch)
(DIR) Post #APoOKSfcmiH9RFpuYi by silverpill@mitra.social
2022-11-21T00:33:13.291149Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@J12t @evan @bobwyman No need to migrate to another protocol, instead we can extend ActivityPub to work with any type of storage, transport and identity layer.For example, here's a FEP that describes how actors can sign activities: https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/feps/fep-8b32.md. Signed activities can be delivered by any means, e.g. they can be added to some personal repository in a distributed file system like IPFS. With another simple extension we can attach DIDs to actors and decouple identity from a particular server. Anything is possible
(DIR) Post #APozTB5x9yfOlQ04qO by zash@fosstodon.org
2022-11-21T07:28:05Z
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@evan Can haz moar #XMPP and XMPP Extensions‽
(DIR) Post #APozTBfP2B1UXMaO6C by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-21T07:29:37.141733Z
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@zash @evan no, restless.
(DIR) Post #APp9div1G4tK6TYMPQ by junbird@livellosegreto.it
2022-11-21T09:23:32Z
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@a @evan I didn't really look into it yet (I was planning to), but I thought Spritely was more of a tool for AP implementers, or something like that? Is it really a completerly different "thing" instead?
(DIR) Post #APpfNjkbatvYaG6Rsm by a@social.exozy.me
2022-11-21T15:19:14Z
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@junbird No, Spritely is a next-generation successor to ActivityPub that tries to fix AP's shortcomings. Spritely is written by some of the same people that created AP.
(DIR) Post #APpsGZGdTIcpRmzrNY by smkellat@mas.to
2022-11-21T17:42:39Z
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@evan Qualified no as I would love to see some of the capabilities of pump.io migrate into ActivityPub. I have yet to see an OpenFarmGame or ih8.it pop up on an ActivityPub backend.
(DIR) Post #APpsGZrVGE7FI8FIqO by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-21T17:43:37.748914Z
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@smkellat @evan How are you popping again? Is there an else case?🤔
(DIR) Post #APpslMieAwKHVTmgZk by sofia@chaos.social
2022-11-21T17:48:35Z
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@evan qualified: only if they want to 😉.
(DIR) Post #APpslNO7gjVFa7BoDw by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-21T17:49:11.032693Z
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@sofia @evan Tony G, is that you?
(DIR) Post #APpt7pnmj78G4ntxTs by sofia@chaos.social
2022-11-21T17:50:36Z
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@volume @evan i dunno who that is, but i'm pretty sure i'm someone else 😇.
(DIR) Post #APpt7qDJCDY5LxqLGS by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-21T17:53:15.471685Z
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@sofia @evan Well, how could you Sofia being a dubbed doll, although I dig the whole destroy humanity, since to err is human. Is that why they sold you off for scraps?
(DIR) Post #APpuKyys0lIOGLv65g by sofia@chaos.social
2022-11-21T18:06:26Z
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@volume @evan no idea what you're on about, but it's creeping me out a little bit…
(DIR) Post #APpuKzwmQ1DZG9wwTI by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-21T18:06:50.277641Z
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@sofia @evan Is it? Fucking doubt it.🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #APq0qxoySQrveqvMYq by jdp23@indieweb.social
2022-11-21T18:19:25Z
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@evan Strong yes. ActivityPub was developed years ago and the people involved didn't really take harassment or disinfo into account. New systems on new protocols can always provide a compatibility layer to interact with ActivityPub.
(DIR) Post #APq0qyFCstquyDCJRw by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T18:44:47Z
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@jdp23 Tell me more about what the people involved with ActivityPub considered and didn't consider.
(DIR) Post #APq0qyg9GjP4JlnpRY by jdp23@indieweb.social
2022-11-21T18:52:12Z
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@evan Fair enough! Can you point me to the analysis of ActivityPub from disinfo and anti-harassment perspectives?And who were the disinfo and anti-harassment experts involved in developing ActivityPub?
(DIR) Post #APq0qz9DWeehlvP2ki by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T19:18:43Z
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@jdp23 that is not a good use of my one wild and precious life.I'm pretty sure minutes from the meetings are up on the web.
(DIR) Post #APq0qzarrqm19gL7qq by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-21T19:19:48.497009Z
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@evan @jdp23 No, the logs are not the crusherDown
(DIR) Post #APqIBCDGME2ZJ0WC5w by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T22:28:53Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
So. these are interesting results!Right now, I'm a strong no. Anything anyone publishes before the end of the year is going to be, at best, a spoiler and a distraction.Worst case, if it picks up steam, it could split the interest in federation, and really inhibit further growth.
(DIR) Post #APqIBE2hYSmSypamuW by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T22:32:25Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
Metcalfe's law says the value of a communications medium goes up with the square of the number of participants.If the total number of people interested in federated social networks is N, a single pool of people using compatible protocols -- AP, right now -- generates ~N^2 value.If you split that in 2 even groups, the value of each group is ~N^2/4, and total value is N^2/2.Every time we split the fediverse, we drive down value significantly.So, if you care about federation, don't split.
(DIR) Post #APqJcBhUTFKBUO5jf6 by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T22:33:35Z
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Long-term, sure, go for it. If your protocol is 10 times better than ActivityPub for some reason, it will get some headway.But don't be a spoiler during this crucial period.
(DIR) Post #APqJcCAYjAZowXgwyG by gabrielbauman@newwest.social
2022-11-21T22:45:30Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@evan ActivityPub has a ton of momentum and adoption right now thanks to Mastodon, and I don't think a dev publishing a paper or a toy implementation threatens that. People should publish early and often.It looks like the biggest adoption spoilers might to be federation wars over moderation policies, followed by inter-instance latency.Basically, mods have to be made irrelevant; users must be empowered to set boundaries that work for them, are transparent to others, and are enforced broadly.
(DIR) Post #APqJcCcv1jGIMUxbAu by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T22:34:11Z
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So, anyway: short term, strong no. Long term, qualified no.
(DIR) Post #APycAtvnsekKxDATlA by voxpelli@mastodon.social
2022-11-21T22:54:16Z
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@evan What’s your take on eg https://fed.brid.gy/ then?
(DIR) Post #APycAugF5ztRHEtZ8y by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T22:58:30Z
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@voxpelli it's great! Bridges are good, interoperability is great. The existing Indie Web stack is great, RSS and RSSCloud is great, existing protocols like OStatus are great. Keep using them, keep building bridges.But! I think publishing a *new* protocol in November 2022 or launching a new network is pretty reckless, and I hope whoever thinks of doing that would think hard about whether they're providing a net good for the fediverse and for the world.
(DIR) Post #APycBAyCWzlVnZQ8MC by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T22:46:44Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@gabrielbauman What about a project funded by a big company, like Blue Sky?
(DIR) Post #APycBkexpzlgUKhHN2 by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T22:44:36Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
For those not familiar with Metcalfe's Law:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law
(DIR) Post #APycW6ZG5t3wE5jXge by leonardo@mastodon.bida.im
2022-11-20T22:30:52Z
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@evan not sure what's the point of this. The internet is already full of competing implementations of communication protocols. In the fediverse, ActivityPub is the widely adopted solution now, but it was born just 8 years later the Diaspora* federation protocol, which was (and still is) very not compatible. If a new protocol emerges, and its specifics are robust and open, and it fits as a good solution for a scenario that let its adoption grow, it is more a benefit than a problem in my opinion
(DIR) Post #APycW86yM1cn0wVysK by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T02:18:23Z
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@leonardo it's a poll. The point is asking what you think.
(DIR) Post #APycW8XujrAwMV7Urw by leonardo@mastodon.bida.im
2022-11-21T06:42:45Z
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@evan yeah sorry😁, i mean, i don't think a poll is the appropriate tool to discuss the question. I find the replies people gave more insightful
(DIR) Post #APycW9SzJepTDVp4pU by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T12:12:01Z
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@leonardoSo you're saying the poll stimulated interesting conversation?
(DIR) Post #APycW9vhatnWeZG0aO by leonardo@mastodon.bida.im
2022-11-21T12:31:38Z
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@evan i'm saying that the question was stimulating, and it would probably be interesting even without a poll attached on it. Please don't try to twist my words just to prove a point, i'm not here to argue and i'm sorry if i gave the opposite impression, it was not my intention.
(DIR) Post #APycWAOPs8la5cgwLI by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-21T14:06:37Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@leonardo oh, great! I do a *lot* of polls. I love the thought process they call up in me, and I love the way conversations flow out of them. And I love finding out if my opinion is mainstream or if I'm an outlier.As a #FuzzyLogic fan and implementer, I try to represent shades of truth as best I can in the limited number of options.If you don't like polls, that's OK! You can follow other people and have a different conversation somewhere else. My stream isn't the only game in town.