Post APmMBoa1MqaAYk2pbk by falken@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by falken@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #APmGmGHxE2l3CDae80 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-19T23:59:23Z
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I am considering adding the following phrasing to QOTO’s ToC.. Before I do I’d like some feedback from the community While QOTO aims to provide a community where our users do not fear being punished for their personal opinions, that does not mean we allow people to disseminate ideologies that are abusive or violent towards others. Demonstrating support for or defending ideologies known to be violent or hateful is a bannable offense. This includes, but is not limited to: racial supremacy, anti-LGBTQ or anti-cis-gender/anti-straight, pro-genocide, child abuse or child pornography, etc. While we allow questions and conversation regarding these topics in general, doing so in bad faith will result in immediate expulsion.@trinsec @khird #QOTO
(DIR) Post #APmH7hiURaeWLNE6V6 by mguhlin@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:03:12Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird Looks solid to me. Thank you. @edutooters
(DIR) Post #APmHJeOEddjvV8RtJ2 by Neekerbreeker@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:05:23Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird This looks completely reasonable to me 👍
(DIR) Post #APmHOMcs6ywtr5Xhey by obi@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:06:18Z
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@freemoThose are all fair additions.However, I personally reject the idea of making these changes. It’s illogical. You are obviously doing it because of recent events. There is no logic in this because their was no wrongdoing to initiate these changes. You did nothing wrong. I personally feel like it would be breaking an ethical standard to make these kind of changes in response to recent events. It seems like an appeasement to a unethical mob. If you were to have made these changes organically, I would see no ethical dilemma.That said, I am probably in the minority, or at least the vocal minority, and what I say or think doesn’t really mean shit. This is your baby. Do what you feel is right.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmHSKavbdYyiIWcme by Alaskanviking@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:07:01Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khirdsounds ok. maybe put more emphasis on the STEM sciences aspect
(DIR) Post #APmHdked3bCkinhZqa by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:09:03Z
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@obiI tend to agree witth you.. but as the game Darkest Dungeon:Triumphant pride precipitates a dizzying fall :)@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmHg6WshHl393CS2a by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:09:28Z
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@AlaskanvikingThe rest of the about does that, but ill throw itt in.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmHk4aFsAcqGkfcS8 by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:10:13Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird While the suggestion itself looks reasonable in itself, i wonder if this is a good addition or just a reaction to bad behaviour from the outside. With what happened lately, i suggest to take it slow. Pressure should not be the reason for policy changes, only reason.Throwing around the word “bannable” could have an adverse effect. I did experience someone saying they were abused for talking about a topic. I do not know if that person acted in good or bad faith, but i think that there are people who have trouble to talk about loaded topics, and the change might affect them.To not have any chilling effects, would it not be better to not list loaded topics, but concentrate on civility? People respecting each other seems to be our strength, i worry if we lose that if we let others mandate what we have to write.
(DIR) Post #APmHq6nIZFHcrVeJhw by obi@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:11:18Z
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@freemoTrue. But cave to a mob, and they will return with power 10 fold.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmHs7zL6ABh93FCKW by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:11:39Z
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@AlaskanvikingI tweaked it to this:While QOTO aims to provide a community where our users do not fear being punished for their personal opinions, that does not mean we allow people to disseminate ideologies that are abusive or violent towards others. Demonstrating support for or defending ideologies known to be violent or hateful is a bannable offense. This includes, but is not limited to: racial supremacy, anti-LGBTQ or anti-cis-gender/anti-straight, pro-genocide, child abuse or child pornography, etc. While we recognize questions and conversation regarding these topics are essential a STEM community, in general, doing so in bad faith will result in immediate expulsion.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmHvC4YN1FkgF92ps by iankenway@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:12:15Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird I think the changes/updating of the ToC are appropriate and judicious.
(DIR) Post #APmHvRR5FXBiKSnkXI by johnnylogic@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:12:17Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird This looks like a worthwhile addition. I see no harm in clarifying qoto policy. Thanks for the opportunity to comment.
(DIR) Post #APmI8LEJdOJwqWyqhc by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:14:33Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenYea I am trying hard to find a wording that basically says “As long as your not being a racist/sexist asshat, your fine”… but there is no real perfect wording…@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmIDwLl3BSHQ68Byi by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:15:35Z
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@obiOn tthe one hand im more than happy to consider criticism and adapt to it if its founded… on the other i wont cave to a mob to appease them if I dont believe in it myself… in this case these words, I believe them, so I am ok with it…. but im willing to discuss further.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmIExwScJFOeAmtQu by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:15:47Z
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@iankenway thank you@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmIZ0UQqyOcLCEYoi by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:19:22Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird The biggest problem i see is listing specific causes. If we cannot determine what is not ok, banning “bad” behaviour about the specific things is a really helpless act. We would protect some, while leaving others unprotected.Either we can find a good frame in which discussions are ok, or we don’t. Listing specific causes will not help. It would only serve to appease those that act against an open discussion in good faith. Don’t let them do this, please.New line: “that does not mean we allow people to disseminate ideologies that are abusive or violent towards others”Already in the about text: “Hate speech and harassment strictly forbidden.”I do not see the need to append anything.
(DIR) Post #APmId3icn3t9VtnwHo by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:20:05Z
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@admitsWrongIfProvenThe list is only a list of examples, it is not intended to be exhaustive.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmIdXU87W7TpdFmrI by true_mxp@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:20:09Z
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@freemo @khird @trinsec I understand it as an elaboration of the statement in the preceding paragraph; as such it may be useful for clarifying what it means.Thank you for your work!
(DIR) Post #APmIiRdBJRzX7jpJAm by _foxaru@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:21:05Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khirdQOTO aims to provide a positive community environment where our users do not fear punishment or reprisal for beliefs or opinions they hold, in line with core principles of freedom of expression.However, this tolerance does not extend to explicitly criminal, violent or abusive content; Admins will take active steps to ban any domain or account that engages in posting materials of these kinds, to secure an inclusive and social space for QOTO and greater-fediverse users.Unacceptable expression includes, but is not limited to: Hate Speech Racial Supremacy Gender or Sex-Based Discrimination Genocide Support Child AbuseIt should be made clear that discussion of these topics is permitted, but they should be discussed with care.Yours is fine too, I just thought it was an interesting writing exercise.
(DIR) Post #APmIjOTIXq8tcAekSW by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2022-11-20T00:21:15.813638Z
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@freemo @Alaskanviking @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmImRUZlqStqrhwBs by geantonicelli@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:21:48Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird the addition sounds fair to me but I would put child abuse and pornography separate as it's now in the ToC, because those are illegal actions and not just inappropriate conducts
(DIR) Post #APmIsYxOvfiYk16oEq by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:22:55Z
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@_foxarupersonally I prefer your version actually… the only downside is it is much wordier, which may be a bad thing…. hmmm@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmIzddjutpvIAHo2a by obi@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:24:11Z
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@freemoAgain, I don’t really have much problem with the words, it’s the reasoning leading you to change them.i.e Let’s say a prominent instance, who has been around forever is accused by a smaller one of being Nazis. The smaller site spreads rumors to people and it spreads like wildfire. The smaller site can provide no proof, just says to people “you don’t block them? They are Nazis”. The other sites block the bigger site, even without any proof, just word of mouth. The instance owner of the large instance changes his ToC to say “We don’t allow Nazis.” The other smaller instance will say “see, they even changed their ToC, the Nazis are trying to hide it!”. Nothing changes. The other instances don’t unblock, and the biger instance looks like they were guilty of something by changing their ToC, and gaining nothing.Again, it’s just my view, and it doesn’t mean shit. I am no one.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmJ0YgtnpESETCdNY by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:24:14Z
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@geantonicelli fair point.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmJ83qCNzxwry87vs by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:25:43Z
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@obiThing is, this isnt a one off incident.. our wording has caused many problems and misunderstanding int he past.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmJFo8udS8uV0Zqk4 by obi@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:27:02Z
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@freemo Do you have screenshots or evidence of these instances at least. So then I could be shown the need for such an action. I truthfully don’t know of said incidents. Were the people who said them not banned? @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmJHus6aXXJwoimES by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:27:30Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird And that is the problem.If i get told that “abuse against sqares is forbidden” and i am a triangle, i feel left out. If i am a triangle that is wondering about a thing about squares, i am scared to ask.Basically, i want to say all people should be protected from abuse. It does not matter what group they belong to. The moment we start to single out groups without a specific reason, we sacrifice that.It would be ok to say “women should be protected from wage inequality” because there is wage inequality going on. Good thing, important, yes please.It is not ok to say “women should be protected more”, because that would diss anyone who is not a woman. Why would we say that? People that are not women can suffer too and should be protected against whatever mean things happen to them.So, in conclusion, a specific cause like “bad thing is happening to " warrants help for this group. General "group should have advantage" is bad because it disadvantages others for no reason.
(DIR) Post #APmJTKSjmZvSVAIVzE by admitsWrongIfProven@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:29:33Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird And that is the problem.If i get told that “abuse against sqares is forbidden” and i am a triangle, i feel left out. If i am a triangle that is wondering about a thing about squares, i am scared to ask.Basically, i want to say all people should be protected from abuse. It does not matter what group they belong to. The moment we start to single out groups without a specific reason, we sacrifice that.It would be ok to say “women should be protected from wage inequality” because there is wage inequality going on. Good thing, important, yes please.It is not ok to say “women should be protected more”, because that would diss anyone who is not a woman. Why would we say that? People that are not women can suffer too and should be protected against whatever mean things happen to them.So, in conclusion, a specific cause like “bad thing is happening to " warrants help for this group. General "group should have advantage" is bad because it disadvantages others for no reason.Editing…I was unclear on “cause”. Sorry. I used it to describe Groups of people and things that happen.I am struggling to put this together in english, please let me know if it is not discernable that i meant.
(DIR) Post #APmJaq56cfuaaopDqi by BE@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:30:54Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khirdWhile I’m the stubborn type who would tend to agree with @obi and @admitsWrongIfProven because I generally don’t do whatever anyone is pressuring me to do, in this situation(of the little I know) I would ask yourself one question. Does adding this make my qoto-life better or easier? If the answer is yes then I think that’s what matters at this point.
(DIR) Post #APmJbbPGfWxxMxcUIi by frickinLasers@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:31:04Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird New here, but it doesn’t sound like qoto is at risk of isolation, and I agree with @obi. Don’t give in to bullies.
(DIR) Post #APmJeKnCtZX2i97UZs by obi@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:31:36Z
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@freemo Actually, don’t bother showng me, you have enough on your plate. Either way my position wouldn’t change because of the even’t leading to this. You know what’s best for your situation, not me. @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmJep5gFS8Og7zfXM by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:31:38Z
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@BEI would say the answer is yes :)@trinsec @khird @obi @admitsWrongIfProven
(DIR) Post #APmJjFPgK6wJTVSVkm by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:32:27Z
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@obiI appreciate your input, and generally would agree with you. But yea i think in this case it will simply be whats best fort everyone.@trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmJo8p0G4EQTmdVmy by RustyStriker@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:33:21Z
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@freemoWhile free speech is usually taken as “say what you want”, people often use it as an excuse to hurt other basic human rights(such as the right of honor(?, not sire about the english names))… So while i will agree for such addition, it still pains me how “ uneducated” people can be(me included sometimes)
(DIR) Post #APmJq5FkUsvZzU4Z8a by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:33:44Z
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@RustyStriker Couldnt agree with you more
(DIR) Post #APmKSMmPmU3JLybf0a by RustyStriker@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:40:37Z
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@freemoMaybe also add a “what is free speech” sort of section? I really hate people shitting on others and claim “free speech”
(DIR) Post #APmKUdgbtWBmMnyW2K by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:41:03Z
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@RustyStriker Well we changed “Free Speech” to “academic Freedom” so im not sure thats needed anymore.
(DIR) Post #APmKY1cHNZVFSBZ1RQ by Gaythia@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:41:40Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird @_foxaru I liked the “stem community” phrasing as an important pointer to why speech would be allowed, but not so much the “bad faith”. Intentions matter but impact does also. Not sure that a psychopath ever acts in “bad faith”. (But discount my opinions due to only being here about a week.)
(DIR) Post #APmKfIOjNtdrWlh4RE by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:42:57Z
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@Gaythiayea i guess bad faith here isnt about intentions, its about saying you cant discuss it in a manner that demonstrates your trying to argue for its adoption.@trinsec @khird @_foxaru
(DIR) Post #APmKg6Z4rhcx7Kv2VU by peterdrake@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:43:06Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird@cstross This thread should make clear that the admins of qoto are operating in good faith.
(DIR) Post #APmKk5s5Nway7oiCvY by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:43:49Z
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@peterdrakeI feel like if anyone were actually following our moderation efforts until now that has been proven countless times.. but it always falls on deaf ears.@trinsec @khird @cstross
(DIR) Post #APmLVteQ7ioy7l798K by inspired@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:52:30Z
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@freemo @obi @trinsec @khird I’m in favor of the wording change. I understand that it isn’t a change in policy but I have seen in a number of situations people were misinterpreting the previous wording. I don’t think it will appease anyone and that shouldn’t be the purpose anyway. If it helps newcomers (of who there are many) understand what we stand for more clearly I’m in favor.
(DIR) Post #APmLYxdbkz49MGCBFI by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:53:00Z
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@inspiredAgree entierly on that.@obi @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmLszeFzXYlNw3Egq by jasonetheridge@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:56:39Z
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@freemo @obi @trinsec @khird That sums it up for me: as long as you believe the ToC you’re changing to, then no problem. Regardless of the baying mob! The bright line is when you change it to something you don’t believe.To your proposed wording change, what “ideologies” do you have in mind? I do like the distinction between an individual’s opinion (which is okay), and spruiking for a hate group (actionable).I specifically chose qoto because it wouldn’t penalise an individual’s personal beliefs if expressed if they happen to be unpopular. Not that I personally have a lot of those, but that academic freedom should be the right of any individual in a free society.
(DIR) Post #APmLymfl9F4asYW0NE by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:57:40Z
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@jasonetheridgeI listed some examples of those ideologies, did I not?@obi @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmM1IFEjaY9NTJ1gu by peterdrake@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:58:10Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird @cstrossContext:cstross is the author Charlie Stross, who has received the disinformation that “the Mastodon instance at qoto.org is overrun by alt-right/gamergater types using the “free speech” policy as top cover for spewing their bilious hate”.
(DIR) Post #APmM7rppK8ePUoYUjI by RustyStriker@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:59:21Z
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@freemoYet another term lost to facism
(DIR) Post #APmMAzUxHvE88GHZ8C by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T00:59:52Z
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@peterdrakeLets hope their actually looking for evidence… I would hope our timeline alone would have disproven that one.@trinsec @khird @cstross
(DIR) Post #APmMBoa1MqaAYk2pbk by falken@qoto.org
2022-11-20T01:00:02Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird solid. Ship it
(DIR) Post #APmMDcBmPLjwhzZ3NA by jasonetheridge@qoto.org
2022-11-20T01:00:24Z
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@freemo @obi @trinsec @khird Ah, now I get it. I was imagining some kind of more formalised, perhaps named, ideologies. My mistake! Looks solid to me, and shouldn’t limit genuine conversation, while eliminating actual hate speech by bad actors.
(DIR) Post #APmMG9459BrxFaAcfg by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T01:00:48Z
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@falken thanks @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmMMsRZLJQljBMlfs by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T01:02:01Z
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@jasonetheridgeAs I see it our moderation practices havent changed with any of this. It is just a clearer way to express them for some.@obi @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmNsfbCjZJF6zb4W8 by STORM@qoto.org
2022-11-20T01:19:00Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird I think its solid ! Nothing wrong with having discussions on sensitive topics but illegal things shouldn’t be allowed and definitely targeted harassment or hate
(DIR) Post #APmOHqzHWt5VfhrqGe by CerstinMahlow@qoto.org
2022-11-20T01:23:31Z
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@freemo @Alaskanviking @trinsec @khird I would split the first sentence into two, avoiding to weaken both parts.How about:“QOTO aims to provide a community where our users do not fear being punished for their personal opinions. We do not allow people to disseminate ideologies that are abusive or violent towards others.”
(DIR) Post #APmOLr8ku41VIuCuSu by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T01:24:15Z
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@CerstinMahlowIll make that change. Thanks.@Alaskanviking @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmORYH7xJSyX5q51U by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-20T01:25:17Z
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@CerstinMahlowdone@Alaskanviking @trinsec @khird
(DIR) Post #APmUBkigWFR6DiZv0K by robryk@qoto.org
2022-11-20T02:29:41Z
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@freemo @Alaskanviking @trinsec @khird (…) pro-genocide, child abuse or child pornography, etc.More wording than anything else:I haven’t seen people say that “child abuse” is an example of ideology (rather just a description of an act). Do you want to say pro-child abuse and pro-CP there?
(DIR) Post #APmYYP3RdSQNVJLR0i by joseph_bulbulia@qoto.org
2022-11-20T03:18:36Z
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@freemo @trinsec @khird I like this wording, People should be free to respectfully ask each other “why do you believe that?” Likewise, when asked why we believe something, we should be encouraged to respectfully offer grounds. Free speech does not require shared beliefs. No conversation would be needed if we all thought alike! It rather requires respectful questioning, expression, and listening. We can embrace high standards both for openness and decorum. Indeed, these ideals are linked.