Post APmEgdCOvrs4bcBE9o by 8565357@poa.st
(DIR) More posts by 8565357@poa.st
(DIR) Post #APm21wYCsajzIjDBC4 by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T21:14:01.589096Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
I tried to read this in good faith, because I wanted to understand what Transgender Marxists meant by trans "reproductive labor." Spoiler: they appropriated the term "reproductive labor" from feminism but invented a new meaning that has absolutely nothing to do with what it actually means to anyone else in the entire world except themselves. I got through one-and-a-half chapters. I do think it's a good idea to read stuff like this in good faith occasionally, just to try to understand what others are thinking even if you disagree. Unfortunately, there's so much intellectual flimsiness and dishonesty, I can't even disagree; disagreement requires substance. But maybe someone more patient than me can give it a try. https://transreads.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021-07-15_60f0b3d5edcb7_jules-joanne-gleeson-transgender-marxism-1.pdf
(DIR) Post #APm2IAsXNOkcN6ScYC by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T21:16:06.687625Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley real Marxists simply shrug and say "revisionism" and "neoliberalism" and don't bother reading further. POMO and Marxism are fundamentally opposed they can't BE reconciled.
(DIR) Post #APm2cZKaAmEO07Irke by AbolishPregnancy@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T21:20:49.081759Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley Trans appropriate everything possible from any sort of feminist issue and then pretend they’re on our side.HINT: Showing up in abortion/repro spaces and demanding your inclusion isn’t activism. You’re not helping, you’re derailing.
(DIR) Post #APm3pDfA94ZOW8WeMC by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T21:34:18.601146Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley Without reading, can I decline it down to “reproductive labor” for transsexual males has no validity as a base value unless they’re opening up childcare centers en masse?
(DIR) Post #APm4GlNUtxIqtxOex6 by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T21:39:16.898560Z
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@LostInCalifornia I was trying to understand their reasoning for appropriating the term, what "reproductive labor" means to them.
(DIR) Post #APm5EsloXwGxCeRCnA by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T21:50:08.808467Z
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@ninapaley To analyze a political theory, you first look at the assumptions.Assumption = reproduction policies effect men. Then you look at material reality = women bear children and have had the historic responsibility of rearing them.Men cannot bear children. Ergo, unless the policy is intended to prevent men from impregnating women, the only involvement of men would be in sharing the child rearing responsibilities.Also support, not leadership in political protests, but they would have to acknowledge material reality first.
(DIR) Post #APm62owr1wgzpRPjpg by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T21:59:10.504791Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley Ignoring material reality, short search reveals:“Additionally, in her later work, Gleeson begins to depict the processes through which trans people produce and reproduce our own identities, through our relationships and social spheres. “It’s not social contagion; it’s trans reproduction. Kids will commit suicide if not allowed to transition. Or for that matter the old saw “feminists are just women who want to be men.” = some TRAs insisting most TERFs are “just trans men in denial”.Best I can do as a quicky. Unfortunately, these days, I rarely have the patience to do a full analysis.
(DIR) Post #APm6SXL57jCOkB0atk by rcz@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T21:59:07.657078Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley @LostInCalifornia Did you?
(DIR) Post #APm6SY2KWvnGuJF8JE by AbolishPregnancy@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:03:48.994181Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rcz @ninapaley @LostInCalifornia All attempts to make sense of nonsense are futile.
(DIR) Post #APm73Zw0R6yhVZwVDU by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:10:30.642975Z
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@ninapaley oh yeah, page 55 to 58 or so.It’s all there. Save trans kids but telling them it’s not just puberty. It’s simply countering cisgender grooming.Reproduction of labor = producing trans kids. Appropriation of the phrase; twisted to suit the agenda, while ignoring material reality. If I read this right now, it would be just a hate read. I’ll save it for later.
(DIR) Post #APm7BCK66gheayqPIW by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:11:53.723064Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
oh yeah, page 55 to 58 or so.It's all there. Save trans kids by telling them their discomfort is not just puberty. Trans activism must counter cisgender grooming.Reproduction of labor = producing trans kids. Appropriation of the phrase; twisted to suit the agenda, while ignoring material reality. If I read this right now, it would be just a hate read. I'll save it for later.
(DIR) Post #APm7uJx8aQrNI1cZyC by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:20:02.241243Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@LostInCalifornia Yes! That’s about it. They call “social reproduction” – modeling and validating “identities” to their “communities” – “reproductive labor.” They call “agency in identity formation” the seeking out of these “communities”. Lest someone notice they are precisely describing cults, they add, “Trans isn’t a cult, CIS is a cult!”Your “It’s not social contagion; it’s trans reproduction” is a nice line, I’m gonna use it. That is, I’m gonna socially reproduce it, through my reproductive labor.
(DIR) Post #APm8ySi24YWHYl5vHs by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:32:00.064274Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley Ty. Marxist theory can be seductive, but it all comes down to what values are entered and where.I might do a theory diagram of this book later, using Bizzarro world Superman.
(DIR) Post #APm9UtOOOsi7aCN8N6 by rcz@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:37:01.999727Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley @LostInCalifornia So, they would seem to describe not the labor needed for reproduction of base material conditions of society, but rather the labor needed for the reproduction of cultural superstructure which defines identities in the society. But this is the Marxist definition of ideology, isn’t it? This should be just renamed “ideological work” and then everything would check out.
(DIR) Post #APm9VqtdANks8ARPkm by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:38:00.372622Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rcz @LostInCalifornia Ideological Labor.
(DIR) Post #APmAKVl3WADtL9aPy4 by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:47:11.132920Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rcz @LostInCalifornia Instead of the Labor Theory of Value, I propose the Value Theory of Labor: it’s only labor if someone else values its results. Masturbation, like labor, requires effort and depletes energy. But it’s not labor, because no one values it except the one doing it. Most “sweat of the brow” has no value to anyone except the sweater, especially in the arts. Which is why many insist they’re entitled to payment for their artistic “labor” no one contracted, asked for, or wants. So, if your effort meets an economic or social demand, produce something of value, then it’s labor. If your effort doesn’t, then it’s something else. Possibly masturbation.
(DIR) Post #APmB2XBfZ62GVy1hpY by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T22:55:08.422539Z
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@rcz @LostInCalifornia Then there's the Theory Value of Labor: the belief that theories of labor have inherent value. I think that's what modern "Marxism" is running on.
(DIR) Post #APmBh3o9hXPJGlLuZU by rcz@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T23:00:04.268474Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley @LostInCalifornia Wouldn’t that be Labor of Value Theory? I’m getting lost. 🤔
(DIR) Post #APmBh4EO80OIa7crSa by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T23:02:28.248197Z
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@rcz @ninapaley I think it would be the Labor Value of Theory.If I’m keeping track, why I might not be.
(DIR) Post #APmBkmL4aoOsFSWRoO by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T23:03:08.639602Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rcz I think it would be the Value of Labor Theory.If I'm keeping track, why I might not be.
(DIR) Post #APmEHCvvS0GDu8Lofo by rcz@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T23:30:34.153313Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley @LostInCalifornia Yeah, that’s Marxism — labor is this human activity which converts your general readiness for work into generalized usefulness in the form of products. If what you’re doing is only useful to you, then it’s irrelevant as a product. The idea of things having a value only comes after you already have products which are useful, so you can start asking questions about how these useful things are exchanged between people who make them and people who need them.It was an idea for productive workers making stuff — not for five-year-olds. It was never like: “oh, you’ve put in so much effort, so we should value it”.
(DIR) Post #APmEQr1xjsPWs1m56e by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T23:33:09.439165Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rcz @ninapaley That’s also true in capitalism, FYI.Labor, Land and Capital are the fundamentals of production. (Marx is best read as a critic of capitalism.)
(DIR) Post #APmEgdCOvrs4bcBE9o by 8565357@poa.st
2022-11-19T23:34:24.631328Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@LostInCalifornia @rcz @ninapaley Marx was just freemason. Don't take him too seriously.
(DIR) Post #APmEgdrWSylSf9Q4Fk by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T23:36:00.442657Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@8565357 @ninapaley @rcz So was G Washington. I take him very seriously.Masonic conspiracy theories are my fave, but I’m tired today. Hit me again the week after turkey day.
(DIR) Post #APmGBzTYG4iacuieSu by rcz@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T23:38:16.229835Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@LostInCalifornia @ninapaley Definitely, all of that is just a description of general labor and markets, and then, after looking into labor market vs commodity market — capitalism. Hence the title of Das Kapital — the clue is in the title that it’s not a book about communism. ;)
(DIR) Post #APmGHfhufZMH3O95ii by ninapaley@spinster.xyz
2022-11-19T23:53:54.199299Z
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@rcz @LostInCalifornia OK, so: does ideological labor have any value?Does anyone want it?
(DIR) Post #APmLJ8J8JqnLog4TdQ by rcz@spinster.xyz
2022-11-20T00:36:50.939624Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@ninapaley @LostInCalifornia Ideological labor seems to create a lot of positional goods.I.e. if I put a lot of effort into spreading the idea that men should have everything, then this effort will obviously be “useful” and “valuable” to men, but it doesn’t add to total sum of usefulness in the world — it’s only useful to men as a tool to make women’s lives that much harder.So probably not.But OTOH, let’s say you’re a feminist organizer, and you put a lot of effort into the idea that actually women should have as much stuff. Does this add to total usefulness?To answer in the affirmative, you probably can’t escape the question “what ideology” — because you need to know that what it gives to one group (e.g. women) is more useful than what it takes from another group (e.g. men). If it has this positive balance — then it would seem it does have value in this sense.Ideological labor or “reproducting identities” doesn’t seem to create any additional usefulness in the world.(I’m consciously abstracting from the ideas of justice, morality, dignity, humanity etc. here.)