Post APfUYlkbUZa1yIjQ4e by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
(DIR) More posts by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
(DIR) Post #APerIGOOPvV7s0TtMu by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-16T05:23:35Z
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Okay, this is something that is worth linking to as it will take a longer post.https://mastodon.social/@HelloAndrew/109351796734280182I would say that @Gargron should consider implementing quote tweets only with an eye to how the function will change behavior across instances and how adding the feature could introduce new and unique forms of abuse as it interacts with the unique nature of the fediverse.
(DIR) Post #APerIGyuEAhxhFZ3HU by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-16T05:26:09Z
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That is, if @Gargron is serious about introducing the QT feature, the implementation would not be a cold one as was the case with twitter itself back in the day. The fediverse QT feature would benefit from the hindsight of how the feature enabled abuse on the bird site.This is a point that a lot of anti QT takes miss: it seems to assume that we cannot, and will not, learn from what happened on the bird site with QTs. It assumes a direct replication of the QT function which ignores context.
(DIR) Post #APerIHVAIEVpJIeoYy by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-16T05:27:30Z
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Context, in this case, matters because the functions of Mastodon are different from the functions of twitter and the differences will matter for how the QT will be used socially.Again, this is something that anti-QT folks miss because they are focused on the FACT of the history of QT use and not the possibility of its implementation in a new environment with different affordances and resources.
(DIR) Post #APerII625A0F9duG1o by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-16T05:30:38Z
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The ignorance of the above among anti-QT people is hilarious to me because my recent threads on this issue have prompted a range of really interesting technical solutions to the problem that could enable community building AND incorporate the unique aspects of mastodon's environment to make something new.And yet, the majority of the anti-QT people shouted these suggestions down on the basis of the possibility for abuse. Again, I think this misses the mark where QTs on mastodon are concerned.
(DIR) Post #APerIIiJmocz4Nophg by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-16T05:32:10Z
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So, to conclude. I think that implementing QTs needs to be done with an eye towards the specific affordances of mastodon and an eye towards the history of their use. Further, I think there are a lot of creative technical solutions to the QT problem that don't involve mirroring its use on twitter. Finally, I think that people are just refusing to learn from over a decade of lessons about QTs in their arguments against them.That's my take.
(DIR) Post #APerIJ7UHElEKRavw0 by vanecx@mastodon.pirateparty.be
2022-11-16T10:10:49Z
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@shengokai hello, thank you for this take, I found it interesting to read, but I have a question: when did you join the Fediverse? (your profile says 2 days ago but maybe you had another account before that)
(DIR) Post #APfISLjA8NUa4gEJOq by blaine@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T05:35:34Z
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@shengokai šÆSimilarly, I discussed a few options to make this better today. (https://mastodon.social/@blaine/109349477242394640) Very little resistance observed! Some people are lukewarm, but most seemed happy with the idea that they could opt out of seeing QTs, which seems fair.The elephant in the room is that it's totally unreasonable and unsustainable for Eugen to be the effective sole arbiter here.
(DIR) Post #APfISMMrklFe3oo1Hk by mralanorth@ioc.exchange
2022-11-16T06:27:48Z
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@blaine @shengokaiHonest question: what is a "QT", other than a tweet with a link to another tweet in it? I use Twitter and use the quote tweet button essentially as I would for a tweet with any other link. Like, "Hey look at this". So what's the issue with quote tweets?
(DIR) Post #APfISMn6BEEdNB4yAq by trwnh@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T10:25:55Z
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@mralanorth @blaine @shengokai In essence, they strip context. Replies are easily visible as part of the same thread, but the QT takes it out of that thread and puts it into a new context. People browsing the original thread cannot easily see your quote. People seeing the quote can dip into the thread, but multiple layers of quotes is a pain to navigate.I liken it to, if this were an old BBS-style forum, it would be like creating a new thread to discuss one person's post in a different thread.
(DIR) Post #APfISNCyd0w2fRBdVg by trwnh@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T10:30:49Z
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@mralanorth @blaine @shengokai Ultimately what I think the discrepancy comes down to, and why people are opposed to quotes in this space, is that fedi is more about conversation than publishing. It is skinned to look like a public platform, but in actuality it operates like email or a messaging app.I actually think quotes have their place, but specifically on an actual website, while fedi is awkwardly halfway in-between being a website/platform and being a messaging service...
(DIR) Post #APfISNiAl1tAEBmY8O by trwnh@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T10:36:18Z
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@mralanorth @blaine @shengokai And really, the divide between messaging and publishing explains more than you would realize at first.For example: people's attitudes toward archival and full-text search. It's reasonable to have those things on your personal website, but no one wants their emails or messages being searched or archived. That we have marked them "public" is, I think, contradictory -- they are only marked this way because we want other people to see us, and it is a technical limit.
(DIR) Post #APfISOBF0x8ngLNlRY by blaine@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T14:22:11Z
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@trwnh @mralanorth @shengokai really good insights. ā¤ļøI think we collectively need a map of fracture lines in the Fediverse. Not as an oppositional thing, but as a way to navigate intent.For me, those are strongly related to medium; e.g. the lines between pixelfed and mastodon are clear, even though it is possible to boost between them, it's a bit weird.Mastodon's "sin" is that it tied communities to instances, rather than making communities more like mailing lists, things that you can join
(DIR) Post #APfISOa3WgzSvIza7c by erincandescent@queer.af
2022-11-16T14:56:51Z
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@blaine @trwnh @mralanorth @shengokai I deeply agree - the local/federated timelines are both some of Mastodon's best innovations and greatest anti featuresYou can imagine opt in 'groups' which (optionally) have three levels of timeline:Intentional/Directed posts by membersAll posts by members (-> analogous to local)That plus all posts by people members follow (-> analogous to federated)
(DIR) Post #APfISQ4E00iVXA7Bmi by blaine@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T15:00:37Z
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@erincandescent @trwnh @mralanorth @shengokai āļøāļøāļøThe model where everyone gets a new identity for every community they join (1) largely defeats the purpose of federation (2) does not scale as people have *many* communities of interest and (3) doesn't map to our natural conception of identity.I *hope* it's fixable. May take some convincing of Eugen, which seems hard from this vantage point.
(DIR) Post #APfISQTOUQqknDtI12 by aaronpk@aaronparecki.com
2022-11-16T07:09:24-08:00
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Thank you! I've been saying this forever. I also agree that the instance timeline is a useful way for a community to come together, but I think that can be accomplished differently while everyone can still have their primary identity in one place. And of course, someone should also be able to have multiple separate identities if they want to!
(DIR) Post #APfISQyacRnsLyUCdk by blaine@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T15:14:07Z
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@aaronpk šÆI totally think "local instances" have a place, where there's strong overlap between your contextual identity and your instance - e.g., work or other closed community-based instances like @darius's friend camp, where federation is a little external communication you can have as a treat, not the primary mode.I wonder if @Gargron's opposition to the private community TL, which was originally grounded in a fear of losing network effects, may have waned now that the network is booming?
(DIR) Post #APfUBgj20h2zj1zSS0 by edk@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T09:37:09Z
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@shengokai @Gargron Iām all for exploring design iterations hereā¦ Forgive my ignorance, someone must have suggested this already - but isnāt QT a matter of consent? What if the OP had the ability to delete QTs? A technical challenge surely but this would flip the power dynamic (as would above vs below as suggested in thread).The ability to curate oneās QTs could go a long way. It still can be overwhelmed in which case turning QTs off for a post would be needed too.
(DIR) Post #APfUBhCSFIaDCHkxJQ by edendestroyer@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T09:38:53Z
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@edk @shengokai @Gargron right, implementing a consent-based direct quote system seems like a step in the right direction if we really want to implement this feature. Personally, I'm straight against it. Talk with me before talking about me.
(DIR) Post #APfUBhbGl2QsRFMlzU by edk@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T09:46:43Z
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@edendestroyer @shengokai @Gargron I definitely understand the perspective and have found the deliberate omission very interesting. I absolutely think itās one of those ādo it right or not at allā. I would love to see the power of the #fediverse used for robust #design experimentation. Show your work etc.Fwiw the design approach to this would be to first robustly and thoroughly describe the problem (w/evidence) and then begin ideating very widely, then curate into experiments.
(DIR) Post #APfUBi2v6EYBp0Ir5c by edendestroyer@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T09:47:47Z
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@edk @shengokai @Gargron 100%, btw, deliberate omission meaning?
(DIR) Post #APfUBiUDSkNvBf4edU by johanbove@indieweb.social
2022-11-16T10:16:25Z
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@edendestroyer @edk Eugen wrote about quote messaging in full extend in the "design decision" chapter of this blog post: https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2018/07/cage-the-mastodon/ I personalty fully agree with Eugen's thinking there.Yet, if we had quoted posts, then it should only be used in the context when a person (a follower) reacting to a long post could pick out a phrase to reply to the original author on that specific piece of content.QT with consent would be the only way, so it won't appear until the OP agrees.
(DIR) Post #APfUBj0pVUTMooKhTE by edk@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T10:46:49Z
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@johanbove @edendestroyer Right, I remember reading that (thank you for adding to the thread) and appreciating the thinking. I do think thereās more to build out - Iāll take a crack at it if I have time!Dunking is absolutely the core of the problem and it is a community-wide poison imo - though that ability to flip the power dynamic of posting can be used for good. Also entanglement with the scale QTs reach (like if you hid them would that change things). Lots to think about.
(DIR) Post #APfUBjM6EPUDsmHgci by johanbove@indieweb.social
2022-11-16T10:50:30Z
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@edk @edendestroyer I've did a quick search on the Mastodon open-source project on Github and there are multiple "issues" created on this. Perhaps there is one to add our voice to? Unfortunately, it does require a Github account to participate there.Search link: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/search?q=quote+posts&type=issues
(DIR) Post #APfUBjs0Jn0VTjDALw by edk@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T16:14:08Z
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@johanbove @edendestroyer Thank you, I wondered if there had been issues filed about it! I have at least one github account... š Though I do think it would be interesting to take all of the related comments and stitch them together into a doc, with a description of the problem, and some ideation... the github format is not really conducive to design, & "issues" seems kinda counterproductive framing.eh @scottjenson?
(DIR) Post #APfUBkFOuniqeI9qoy by scottjenson@social.coop
2022-11-16T16:45:03Z
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@edk @johanbove @edendestroyer I was surprised to learn there is a 'sneaky way' to QT today: reply to the post then boost your reply. It's NOT the same thing, but it's what people are trying.It's helpful to discuss this 'cowpath', the differences, the pros/cons, as it has the potential to become the defacto solution absent any action.
(DIR) Post #APfUBkZxgMAXg3mGrw by edk@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T16:53:45Z
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@scottjenson @johanbove @edendestroyer Totally agree that this belongs in the case study, but I suspect it might be performing as designed. Mastodon is full of informal cultural cowpaths & this seems to be a values-based decision. But that doesnāt mean study canāt be helpful. Iām curious in a broad sense how we can facilitate #OpenSourceUX - what are the tools, communities, processes we need. What would it even look like in success? š¤
(DIR) Post #APfUBkzU9SaMxDieeW by scottjenson@social.coop
2022-11-16T17:06:08Z
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@edk @johanbove @edendestroyer Very well put. Completely agree.For me the cowpath helps a bit as it provides some data as to how a QT-like function could be used/abused.A permissions model sounds promising but if we're not careful could create cascade of requests. In some ways we're really trying to address what it means to be 'viral'.Re: tools. I'd suggest we do a bit of 'visioning' and just layout possible paths, see what we bump into, create some discussion?
(DIR) Post #APfUBlZI0LE2kGTFSa by edk@mastodon.social
2022-11-16T17:16:31Z
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@scottjenson @johanbove @edendestroyer Trying to address what it means to be viral, yes! I think that's exactly right and why it's a super hard and intriguing problem. How do you have consent and virality? How do you continuously renew consent, which can change WITH virality?I agree that dumping out all the legos is the right stage for now.
(DIR) Post #APfUBm8NtrIYV6tHA8 by scottjenson@social.coop
2022-11-16T17:23:34Z
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@edk @johanbove @edendestroyer OK, here's a trial concept: post or pre consent? If we want to encourage sharing, and assume most of it is well intentioned (?) then a post consent model appears to work well. Just QT away! If someone goes toxic, yank the quote back. I expect there are problems with this idea. But use that discussion to drive a better solution.
(DIR) Post #APfUUegtnY6Guy2MOe by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-16T17:30:07.455704Z
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@scottjenson @edk @johanbove @edendestroyer I have been proposing a permissions system since FOREVER. Purely UX measures can be taken, but my concept is that of splitting user discovery from content itself, so you can do what e.g. the Hey mail service does, which is "hey here's new mail from a new contact", let you see their profile, and then you can block that user or the whole instance, making sure your posts cannot reach them by using a system like OcapPub.
(DIR) Post #APfUYlkbUZa1yIjQ4e by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-16T17:30:52.834871Z
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@scottjenson @edk @johanbove @edendestroyer I have been proposing a permissions system since FOREVER. Purely UX measures can be taken, but my concept is that of splitting user discovery from content itself, so you can do what e.g. the Hey mail service does, which is "hey here's a message from a new contact", let you see their profile, and then you can block that user or the whole instance, making sure your posts cannot reach them by using a system like OcapPub.
(DIR) Post #APfUktrh9I4sc3phWy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-16T17:33:03.466398Z
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@scottjenson @edendestroyer @edk @johanbove (in fact, you vould make this so aggressive as to apply to merely reading messages on someone else's threadā¦ getting the UX defaults right, though, is utmost important)
(DIR) Post #APfUnXeECykeZmnGJE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-16T17:33:33.125376Z
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@scottjenson @edendestroyer @edk @johanbove (in fact, you could make this so aggressive as to apply to merely reading messages on someone else's threadā¦ getting the UX defaults right, though, is utmost important)