Post APWquSdbgQ2bdMZHP6 by minder@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by minder@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #APSvOxvtW46uZ75En2 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T16:00:20Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
So someone messaged me privately and asked how absolute this is.. like would we block an instance calling for genocide. I feel my response is import to reiterate here, so here it is:Its not just about the authorities, it is about the people whose lives are at risk by that call to genocide having the right to see those posts and use that information to look out for their own safety... If someone is doxed, they should know, if someone is threatened, they should know, and they should be able to take action.Someone saying violent things online doesnt guarantee some police officer will meander by and take them down. The law only tends to get involved once someone is reported, and sometimes not even then. No one will be reporting a site if no one can see or know it is there.The question is, if someone is being physically threatened and having their life in jeopardy how are you helping them by blocking the privileges of the **victim** and disallowing the victim the right to see the threat placed against them?In short, I refuse to take away rights from the victim simply because there is a violent bad actor out there. If the victim doesn't want to see it they simply need to import the block list and the problem is solved for them, so why not keep the power in the victims hands?QT: https://qoto.org/@freemo/109319817943835261
(DIR) Post #APSxP9QEzxzo6jUgTo by thekazath@qoto.org
2022-11-10T16:22:46Z
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@freemo Thanks for detailed explanation & history. I'm even happier being on QOTO with that info in hand. This seems like a great community.
(DIR) Post #APSxRVu4NwbgPWZZFA by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T16:23:13Z
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@thekazath I am happy to hear that, and it is great to have you here.
(DIR) Post #APSxWtE765VEC7VmDY by EubieDrew@qoto.org
2022-11-10T16:24:08Z
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@freemo Where are these blocklists that I might import?
(DIR) Post #APSxkIIRCRj9iAvSpU by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T16:26:37Z
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@EubieDrew https://qoto.org/@freemo/109303687938265107
(DIR) Post #APSybSbXbZQx1tDGCm by jud@qoto.org
2022-11-10T16:36:15Z
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@freemo Regarding your last question: I suppose this becomes a more difficult calculus for people/groups subjected to continual random harassment. What's a good alternative (if there is one) between leaving people unaware of threats on one hand and having them spend undue amounts of time blocking insults and slurs on the other?
(DIR) Post #APSynbPsfUWfpmY54a by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T16:38:27Z
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@jud I beleive we already achieved it,l partly thanks to how the fediverse works.Sincne you can block servers and not just people if you want to be safe from harassment all you have to do is block a dozen or two servers and your problem is solved. You can even import this as a CSV and do it in literally 20 seconds.So the risk isnt really there, if you want to be isolated from harassment and otherwise not see it, just click a button and bam you are done. If you want to be able to monitor the bad actors, then keep it open. The choice is yours, there is really no reason for an admit to force your hand in either direction.
(DIR) Post #APT3nrZD7XgRh8r9F2 by inspired@qoto.org
2022-11-10T17:34:31Z
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@freemo @jud It is certainly a worthwhile discussion and I appreciate that you engage in it, even raising the visibility. I think there are other angles to look at it from and would love to hear your take on the following one. Because fedi is default-allow the more instances that do not block a message, the greater its reach. At scale this can still lead to more harassment both through the platform (lag before being blocked) and outside it by bringing more people in contact with that ideology, even if it is only a tiny proportion of those who see the message.
(DIR) Post #APT5VN9Xf0IE3zA1UO by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T17:53:33Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@inspired Let me see if i follow the logic here... The idea is that lots of people need to block an instance to make sure an instance that doesnt block them might not get a message from them before realizing they want to block them?For starters before I address that directly, is that concern a valid justification to put people of the LGBTQ community in physical danger? I'd say not. I mean onen person sees one message from the server, and then blocked, yes its a shame they had to see it, but is that very minimal edge case worth putting peoples lives in danger.... thats a huge stretch for me.Keep in mind there are also global block lists they can subscribe to. Things get on fediblock pretty damn fast so if the user uses fediblock locally the chances of that even happening are exceedingly small.@jud
(DIR) Post #APT6G6yPdJKbUgF3U8 by phil@cryptodon.lol
2022-11-10T18:02:00Z
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@freemo thought-provoking approach to a hard problem, thank you for this. it seems we need even better opt-in blocking guides and protocols for different categories on the user side as this scales (maybe it exists and I'm not aware but I mostly see server-level lists).
(DIR) Post #APT6cLQOaGUygVvrPs by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T18:06:00Z
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@phil im trying to work on a better technological solutionn as we speak.. i have some ideas its mostly about findingn either the time, or a person with time, to do it. I reached out to a mstodon dev to pay them to help with out code... lets see if it works out.
(DIR) Post #APT6gAAeMrj0wJO8HI by phil@cryptodon.lol
2022-11-10T18:06:36Z
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@freemo happy to donate to pay my dues to the Fediverse... let me know if there's an easy way to do that!
(DIR) Post #APT6iMMO1FvDK5vQS8 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T18:07:05Z
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@phil appreciate it, we are good on money. What we need are people offering up some time.
(DIR) Post #APTWcBFP1KjtvdNAbA by jud@qoto.org
2022-11-10T22:57:21Z
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@freemo @inspired Thanks for the good (& enlightening for me, a newbie) discussion. What sparked my toot (there's a phrase 🙂) was seeing several excellent Black scientists (on other servers) I know from the birdspace mention it was a matter of a day or 2 after joining before they were first subjected to racial slurs & other offensive content from random other users. It's the random, ubiquitous and scattered nature of this pollution that makes it difficult to combat by blocking some servers, I think.For people not members of targeted groups, imagine your email had a lousy spam filter & you had to manually put dozens of individual junk emails in the spam folder every day. It would rapidly get very tiresome. (This is without considering the anger & frustration racial slurs provoke.) These are top notch scientists with a lot to contribute, & I hate to think of them or others deciding to leave b/c they have to swim through a sea of garbage every day.I don't know if other humans have the capacity to moderate this, and I don't think AI is there yet (subtleties of membership in a group, satire, sarcasm, etc., all being pretty difficult for them). At the end of the day, it's nice to know people who are smarter and more experienced than I am have thought about this and are doing their best.
(DIR) Post #APTYCaR2wyA2QUk7HM by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T23:15:06Z
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@judTthis isnt twitter, and there is a huge difference. Here you need to just block a dozen or two servers.. on twitter you have to block each and every single user on your own, that isntt manageable.Literally you spend 20 secondns and import the fediblock clock list and your problem is solved. An admin blocking for you wont make any difference, they would just be importing fediblock or similar as well. @inspired
(DIR) Post #APTYJugg3GQHGRY0fo by lavenderlens@qoto.org
2022-11-10T23:16:26Z
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@freemo that’s a nuanced point you make. Said victim if kept in the dark by some auto-block feature could then turn around later and say - but I never knew this was going on! At least if I’d known I could have done something about it!
(DIR) Post #APTYchUvJYF9rM0Zay by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T23:19:52Z
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@lavenderlens Yup, exactly... empower victims, let them decide.
(DIR) Post #APTZUdRKcMJgua2vGC by jud@qoto.org
2022-11-10T23:29:35Z
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@freemo @inspired Here's something relevant from one of the scientists I was referring to. Please do me and her a favor and try not to contact her with good advice. 🙂 https://mas.to/@Chanimal/109316109756331900
(DIR) Post #APTZy5noFHH3H4beoC by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T23:34:54Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jud Woa... israel has blocked mas.to with their global firewall... whaaaaa...@inspired
(DIR) Post #APTa0gDXpGvenDsT8S by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T23:35:24Z
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@jud Why do you say not to contact her with "good advice"?@inspired
(DIR) Post #APTa4B7hNMBrVvoMeO by realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
2022-11-10T23:36:02.858939Z
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@freemo @jud @inspired haha oh boy 😂😂
(DIR) Post #APTaGCa9mEcVVvr6wK by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-10T23:38:10Z
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@jud I'm sorry she had that expiernce.. not sure if it has much direct relevance to what we are talking about.@inspired
(DIR) Post #APTfG5RcoWp99Ed5Zg by inspired@qoto.org
2022-11-11T00:34:14Z
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@freemo @jud Sorry, I couldn't follow the logic. I can't quite tell how closely to read it but with many occurrences of the words "instance" and "them" instead of proper nouns my brain shuts down.Am I getting the basic point if I read that as "transitive blocks are bad"?As for the rest, I don't think there are easy answers. I'm not advocating for more instance blocks. That would be pretty cocky, especially after just a few weeks here.I do fear that none of the tools we have today are fully up to the task long-term (user blocks or instance blocks, individually-managed or subscribed to). One thing I have been thinking about would be making "choose your filters" a step during sign-up. "None" should be an option but it seems that some people are greeted with hateful things right off the bat.I have more thoughts but this is already super-long. Moderation is extremely hard and I am sure I don't know the quarter of it. I like hard problems.
(DIR) Post #APTfqdyxsfuUgpei8m by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-11T00:40:47Z
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@inspired We agree here, there are better not yet invented ways to handle this.Interesting you say this because the solution you just described is pretty much exactly the one ive consaidered s well and am working on developing as a feature in QOTO in the near future (I hope).. I may pay someone to help code it.@jud
(DIR) Post #APTh71gDdodsm4GMeu by inspired@qoto.org
2022-11-11T00:54:58Z
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@freemo @jud I'm so glad to hear that. Well, I'll keep thinking. Glad to be here (both qoto and fedi) and just trying to figure out how it can be better.
(DIR) Post #APThKK0EpQGJMlxzGK by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-11T00:57:22Z
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@inspired Happy to have you around.@jud
(DIR) Post #APTysLJSAAOwUmlL5k by arctangent@qoto.org
2022-11-11T04:14:01Z
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@freemo also, instances don't call for genocide. Users call for genocide, through their toots & boosts. Besides, even if an instance's entire user population calls for genocide, someone needs to keep an eye on that crap.
(DIR) Post #APUbzh8PKBycPk5nk0 by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-11T11:32:19Z
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@arctangent 'zactly
(DIR) Post #APUp0khwp8W1BqYDVw by bpub@qoto.org
2022-11-11T13:58:07Z
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@freemo Well, I guess it is not as easy as to make this a victims only problem. The call - for genocide as an example - is also out there. And granting it reaching more audience is also a problem.Consider manipulative disinformation. Here, how much audience it reaches becomes even more of a problem.I see both sides and framing this as taking away victims rights might be an oversimplifying approach to a more complex issue.
(DIR) Post #APVGieenNaN7vaEdtY by freemo@qoto.org
2022-11-11T19:08:38Z
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@bpub Im not sure i agree, reaching more of an audience, especially when that audience is knownn good actors isnt a problem at all.An instance of bad actors or even questionable actors federating with such a server, maybe... but a bunch of people on a server with strict no hate policy who have all proven themselves to be good actors... no i dont see the problem with information about a genocidal server reaching them being an issue.As for manipulative disinformation, that is all the more important to have access to for a STEM instance or in general because then you have the ability to correct the information. What is ddangerous is allowing that information to exist in a bubble where people hear it day after day and are so isolated no one is there to provide them with the other side.
(DIR) Post #APWquSdbgQ2bdMZHP6 by minder@qoto.org
2022-11-12T13:28:53Z
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@ambv this thread has similar vibes to what you posted recently