Post APW1zGS7Ju0Dcxj88e by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #APVMcbFRjwVBLJsGuG by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-11T15:12:55Z
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#introduction Hi! I'm an #atheist #humanist and #skeptic looking to respectfully engage online here with people I disagree with. And maybe people who agree with me too!I don't believe in #god , and in fact I'm pretty sure no such thing exists, but I'm willing to consider the alternatives and change my mind.Are you a #christian who believes in #jesus , or any other #religion , and want to explore whether or not you have good reasons to think that it's true? I'm happy to have that conversation!I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. Are you?
(DIR) Post #APVMcdONlgq1zc4R72 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T20:14:43Z
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@lack Christian god: “You are evil, and you deserve to die.” Atheist: “No, -you- are evil and I think you don’t exist.”
(DIR) Post #APVN47V1wEdvBgHo36 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T20:19:47Z
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@lack I also think hard-atheist materialism, taken by itself without anti-Christian miso-theism, is a poorly thought out position. Either you accept the possibility of reincarnation or an afterlife of some sort, that just means you are re-inventing paganism… or, you deny the possibility of an afterlife or a soul, which is a difficult position to prove. Face it: consciousness is a hard problem, every AI developer or a sci-fi author knows that!
(DIR) Post #APVNByNPjyuxD5T6I4 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T20:21:11Z
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@lack tagging @wagesj45
(DIR) Post #APVNVAt7RpM7W1SDvE by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T20:24:40Z
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@lack also tagging @dormouse
(DIR) Post #APVRfZNrcwkiCV2yye by me@social.jlamothe.net
2022-11-11T21:10:57Z
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@b_chocolatey To be honest, the more I learn about AI, the more skeptical I become of the notion that what we call consciousness needed an intelligent creator at all.I don't claim to have the answers, I simply don't accept them without verifiable evidence.If there is in fact a creator, I see no reason to believe something as insignificant as me in something as vast as the universe would even be a blip on its radar.
(DIR) Post #APVZSoGhm6KOEV7owq by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T22:38:43Z
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@me not to get all no-true-Scotsman, but I think that actual AI experts know that human consciousness can’t be produced by AI - or else they would have done it already, or established a product delivery date on the Kanban jira board.
(DIR) Post #APVZl0UX4JctM2Gn6e by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T22:42:01Z
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@me the remark about human insignificance, alluding to the Copernican principle, doesn’t disprove the existence of a personal god. Even Jesus said “are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And yet not one of them falls to the ground without your father knowing about it” - suggesting that the Copernican implications had already been considered, and considered refuted, centuries before Copernicus.
(DIR) Post #APVaHIuI8TmhjfidCi by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T22:47:50Z
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@me more specifically, there is Beauty, and Order, And Truth (and all those other woo-woo expressions) both at the astronomical level - stars and supernovae - but also at the microscopic and quantum level - DNA, photons. The human mind and “soul” is not an insignificant afterthought in a supernovae universe.
(DIR) Post #APVbHzvQILHF6n8v7Q by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-11T22:59:06Z
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@b_chocolatey I don't usually use the "problem of evil" argument, but when I do it's not me saying "I think God exists and is evil so I don't want it to exist", but more of a "If I temporarily assume that God exists for the sake of argument, I find this contradiction which suggests the initial idea (that a loving and powerful God exists) is incorrect".I think this is a common misunderstanding of how the argument is supposed to work, made worse by atheists who maybe don't explain it well :)
(DIR) Post #APVcHGNPk8N9nRRu2i by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T23:10:14Z
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@lack yes but Christianity already has a built-in explanation for the problem of evil - saying that it is our fault, not god’s. The Christian religion makes it a problem that we are not “good enough”.
(DIR) Post #APVcK3TQAmyGeAadvM by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-11T23:10:28Z
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@b_chocolatey I think I see what you mean. But the way I approach the idea of afterlife and soul is not immediately denying the idea of either; I start with the idea that I should only believe in things when there's a good reason, and if I haven't heard a good reason to believe in an afterlife or a soul, I can just stop there and remain agnostic.That said, I think there are some pretty compelling reasons to positively believe that there is no such thing as a soul (and if there is no soul, it doesn't matter if there's an afterlife or not since there's nothing to "go" there).But before we go into chatting about either why you think the soul exists or why I think it doesn't (I think both would be interesting) my first concern is that I don't even fully understand what is meant by the word. It seems to be a slippery concept to pin down. Can you help me understand more explicitly what you mean by "soul"? What does it do? What parts of "me" are in my brain and which parts are in my soul? How does a soul interact with my brain or my body?
(DIR) Post #APVcPAyDjAxnLURDRQ by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T23:11:40Z
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@lack Atheist does the same thing. If the universe seems indifferent to human suffering, that proves conclusively that there is no creator deity behind the universe. The universe is not “good enough”.
(DIR) Post #APVdAMrfK4IXqTsISG by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T23:20:11Z
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@lack the #rationalist #scientific mind should accept, with #Nietzchean #Buddhist -like resignation, that we live in a Lawful Neutral universe that is sometimes indifferent to human well-being. Sometimes the hurricane wins. Sometimes the virus wins. Doesn’t conclusively dis-prove that Someone invented hydrogen and oxygen all those trillions of years ago.
(DIR) Post #APVdwdVUkXx5MRWLvk by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T23:28:54Z
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@lack the Buddha seemed to believe that the “self” is what experiences pleasure, pain, desire, fear… the self is what experiences self-ishness, psychologically and physically. And a computer will never experience that; it doesn’t enjoy a sense of accomplishment when it solves an equation. It doesn’t “crave” the electricity or bandwidth or experience physical hunger or emotional distress if it encounters RF interference blocking its signal.
(DIR) Post #APVeqAj0wnXKJPKGVk by Ariellec@masto.ai
2022-11-11T23:38:57Z
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@b_chocolatey @lack but frankly also there are non-Abrahamic conceptions of god that are less punitive
(DIR) Post #APVfn2rNpgzt0LJUIq by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T23:49:35Z
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@Ariellec @lack 👍
(DIR) Post #APVfx4qrHc9u4pqqq8 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T20:12:15Z
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@lack picking up the gauntlet: I am a pantheistic agnostic. I unironically believe that hard atheism is a heretical branch of Christianity.
(DIR) Post #APVfx5NTKMFLhz6tfs by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-11T23:51:17Z
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@b_chocolatey I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I usually associate the phrase "hard atheism" to mean "the positive belief that there is no God or gods". Do you mean something different?
(DIR) Post #APVfzhpPL8qlXXQUi0 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T23:51:54Z
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@Ariellec @lack what’s interesting is that, when they wrote Genesis and said that God made the sky and a garden and so forth, somebody had to ask “if the sun and sky is eternal then why do we die so fast?” And then they wrote chapter 3
(DIR) Post #APVgHEiEKXz8S3Qbw0 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T23:55:03Z
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@Ariellec @lack They got to the origin-of-death myth pretty fast, and they wrote a pretty unpleasant one. But other origin-of-death myths are pretty gruesome. In a Native American myth, apparently an owl-god decided that humans should have a limited lifespan to prevent overpopulation. And then the owl’s baby chickling was the first to die
(DIR) Post #APVgKUUO84wCFcVPP6 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-11T23:55:38Z
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@Ariellec @lack look up “origin of death myth” in Wikipedia
(DIR) Post #APVh4w4PupPP74VKlc by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T00:04:01Z
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@lack Hard atheism is the belief that a non-physical world doesn’t exist, can’t exist in any meaningful sense, and is a childish fantasy.
(DIR) Post #APVhLPGn7Uy2J798Iy by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T00:07:01Z
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@lack Strict materialism: even if a “god” or “holt spirit” somehow existed without a physical body, it couldn’t part an ocean or even move a small pebble because it isn’t made of matter. (The theistic belief system handwaves that bit of magic by saying that the physical pebble was invented in God’s imagination before it existed in physical form. The #simulation always bends to the intervention of the underlying #OS operating system)
(DIR) Post #APVi16TbNqB0BQ1Mf2 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T00:14:34Z
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@lack if you ignore the improbability of literalist young-earth creationism and the miraculous described in the #Bible, you will find that it’s actually quite difficult to really rule out the existence of both a creator God and lesser “gods”, souls, ghosts, spirit ancestors. You are left both with the origins-of-the-Big-Bang problem (why is there something rather than nothing?) and the consciousness problem (why can I feel sensation, memory, reasoning, desire, fear, hate, love? Mechanical contraptions can’t have any of this)
(DIR) Post #APVl8D4PZBAoWTJoAK by dormouse@mas.to
2022-11-12T00:28:31Z
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@b_chocolateyOh my god these conversations usually end up in horrible flames.I'm too tired for this kind of conversation now, if this thread survives long enough without burning up completely, I'm gonna peek back later and join.@lack
(DIR) Post #APVlTPmpTxSY2kCppQ by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T00:53:14Z
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@b_chocolatey Yes, there are many different ways to try to respond to the problem of evil.One way is to claim that evil is our fault, and somehow the "good" that comes from us being free enough to do evil outweighs the evil that we actually do. This doesn't help with kinds of evil known as "natural evil" like animal predation or natural disasters, though.Another is to claim that the evil we see around is actually part of a greater good somewhere in the future, so it's actually okay, or even "good" in a way.I'm not sure I find those responses satisfying when I dig into them, but regardless, the "problem of evil" isn't a big part of why I'm an atheist. It just happens that the problem goes away entirely if you assume the universe is indifferent :)
(DIR) Post #APVmLEp0SuzJfptC0u by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T01:02:47Z
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@b_chocolatey So it sounds like you're equating the "soul" with the sense of "self"?First of all, I think the claim that a computer will *never* experience this is a tough one to be sure about. I'm a software engineer in my day job, but I don't think I know enough about either computers (though I know a lot) or consciousness (where I know very little) to say whether some day they will or they won't.But regardless, if the "soul" is the "self", but somehow non-physical, what happens when I'm asleep or under anesthesia? If there are periods of time when I am not experiencing, what is my soul doing then? Why can drugs or other physical things stop my "self" from "self-ing", unless that self is physical?
(DIR) Post #APVmss6pPt794tGMlM by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T01:09:04Z
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@b_chocolatey Under that definition, then, how is something a "branch of Christianity" if it claims Christianity is not true (and/or impossible, childish, etc)?
(DIR) Post #APVnMSb2pv10dhVOU4 by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T01:14:24Z
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@b_chocolatey I'm curious why you rule them in!I agree that there are interesting questions that we don't fully understand, and some that maybe we will never actually understand. But I think it's okay to just say "we don't know" when we don't know.Why do you think God or gods or souls are good answers to these questions?
(DIR) Post #APVoNqgwpusHc4UbJ2 by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T01:25:50Z
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@b_chocolatey I would say an atheist using that line of reasoning is making a mistake.If the universe seems indifferent, there could certainly be no creator. But there could also be an indifferent creator. Or an evil one. Or a good one who just isn't strong enough to do anything about it. Or a huge number of other explanations. I do think it is a small point against the idea of a creator who is both loving and powerful, but even then not a conclusive "must not be" deductive argument. Which is why I don't use that argument :)
(DIR) Post #APVouIZ2k62xKCGhJw by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T01:31:45Z
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@lack because it makes an argument that the universe falls short of some impossible ideal and then pronounces a death penalty curse against the party at fault. The argument that there is unequivocally no god “because cancer” is just a convoluted “you shall surely die” screamed vengefully at the heavens #atheist #atheism #christian #bible #catholic
(DIR) Post #APVpLGonLG7TjEUt0K by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T01:36:38Z
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@lack ok. I’m only interested in debating the problem of evil if that is the reason why you are atheist, the reason why atheism is considered reasonable and convincing by atheists. All other arguments for atheism seem to be arguments for agnosticism or deism at most; or a refutation targeted against one religion in particular (“Mohammad was a illiterate pedo!”)
(DIR) Post #APVqLcIXa3QeIj8iSu by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T01:47:53Z
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@lack what I’m saying is the “self” can’t be entirely physical and chemical, and you counter-argue that the self is influenced by the physical and chemical world - which is obviously correct. Different perspectives, different parts of the elephant. If you allow that the human experience doesn’t arise entirely from the physical and chemical world - which appears to be the case - then you can’t reasonably conclude that human experience ends completely with the dissolution of the physical body
(DIR) Post #APVqgO3rhuzsECBBPU by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T01:51:39Z
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@lack Ancient man speculated that maybe the breath of the dead ancestor goes back into the sky and it still present, watching you, entering you when you breathe. Maybe the ancestor is re-born as a human several generations into the future… or maybe an animal. Couldn’t really pin it down precisely, any more than you could predict next year’s harvest or the outcome of tomorrow’s battle. But that can’t possibly disprove the existence of a next life or previous lives.
(DIR) Post #APVrEuf50UJdBK37WS by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T01:57:52Z
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@lack you’re accustomed to the monotheistic concept of God - it is blasphemous to call the human soul and personality a god, much less the sentience of a cat or a crocodile. Moses defeated the gods of Egypt, there is one god left standing - and if he doesn’t exist, then there is no god. But that’s not how it works. If you dethrone God, but you allow for maybe the possibility that maybe your dear old grandma is somewhere else and you’ll see her again someday… you are inventing polytheism.
(DIR) Post #APVrTcIFa7wsYcNlYW by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T02:00:33Z
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@lack To be good at atheism, you have to not only making a convincing case that there is no God who wished for the Big Bang to occur, but you also have to make a good non-supernatural explanation of all sentient life, including the smallest ant. Otherwise that ant is a god.
(DIR) Post #APVsWIDyknCh8bDycq by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T02:12:14Z
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@lack another viable worldview pantheism - the belief that there is a God - an animating, intelligent ghost in the machine - and the physical universe and spacetime is God. The God inhabits and moves the physical universe, just no different that how grandma “lives in” grandma’s arms and legs and brain. Grandma’s soul and personality is just a tiny, tiny piece of God’s intelligence, God’s creativity, God’s love.
(DIR) Post #APVxFDrcDGrESeRZHk by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T03:05:07Z
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@b_chocolatey I don't think atheism as I understand it, or what I mean when I say I am an atheist makes any argument at all like that.
(DIR) Post #APVxZ8bLUKetvpKVt2 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:08:46Z
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@lack ok. Other than problem-of-evil, I have never heard even one argument for atheism that doesn’t work even better as an argument for either Deism, pantheism, or agnosticism.
(DIR) Post #APVxjNQfDKQ6oaDRtg by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:10:37Z
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@lack also, I’m saying that you can’t prove “there is no God” without also proving “there is no soul and no afterlife”. It seems that some atheists get lazy with their arguments and don’t realize this.
(DIR) Post #APVy2KNmlTHYruuF2e by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:14:03Z
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@lack “Is there a god?” “No I think there is no god, because Copernicus, Darwin, Hubble telescope.” “Okay, do you believe that you disappear when you die?” “Not sure. Who knows?” I’ve had conversations that go like this.
(DIR) Post #APVyMLLYtDsreOPUMy by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T03:17:37Z
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@b_chocolatey In an academic context, "arguments for atheism" are usually arguments against what's known as "the God of Classical Theism" or some variant of monotheism. If that's not what you believe, I can see why those arguments aren't relevant to you.Maybe you can help me understand more about what you actually believe in; that way we can make sure you're not bringing up arguments that I'm not making, and I won't bring up arguments that aren't relevant to you :)
(DIR) Post #APVz5KXij1miBkY520 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:25:48Z
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@lack okay. In order to be an “atheist” as I understand it, you have to 1. Disbelieve in any possible historical persons with paranormal powers, who could walk on water, etc. 2. Disbelieve in the existence of any invisible-and-immortal entity that could will the dead back to life, etc, even without a human representative, outside intervention 3. Disbelieve in any possible creator who determined the natural laws of physics, wished for the universe to emerge from emptiness or from primal chaos
(DIR) Post #APVz6JRoHcIn55Fimu by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T03:25:48Z
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@b_chocolatey This is interesting; you are saying the self can't be entirely physical, and that the human experience doesn't arise entirely from the physical and chemical world.I'd love to know why you think this is true!
(DIR) Post #APVzIBl4hJ1whxvUzw by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:28:07Z
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@lack 4. Disbelieve in the possibility of the human mind and personality existing in some other form, after bodily death 5. Disbelieve in the possibility of the here-and-now human mind and personality having any causes outside of the laws of electricity, chemistry, and fluid and solid mechanics
(DIR) Post #APVzWdLstxGgLJ2288 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:30:44Z
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@lack 6. Disbelieve in any ethical standard of “you should do that… you shouldn’t do that” except as determined by human intellect and social dynamics, which themselves are second-order and third-order effects of molecular chemistry, etc
(DIR) Post #APVzfDgrgE9hMQwIgy by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T03:32:15Z
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@b_chocolatey Why does an atheist need to do any of that? Why is the default position "It's God unless you can prove it is not"?I approach it differently. I take all these questions and start with "I don't know what the cause is until I learn more". Maybe I'll learn that the cause is a God. Maybe I'll learn the cause is physical. Maybe something else. Maybe I will never know. But the fact that I don't know doesn't mean you are right to claim that gods are the answers, does it?
(DIR) Post #APVztItT8BxVYKYC2a by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T03:34:44Z
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@b_chocolatey I agree that this is a possibility, sure! But how do we know if it is actually true?
(DIR) Post #APVzzMorRrgZSvHp3o by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:35:55Z
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@lack the argument I am making is that atheism - the perception that supernatural “woo” is the product of a barbaric age and easily disproven by even a moment of rational thought by any well-adjusted adult - well, runs into the limits of what is epistemologically rational. It is a cultural preference, a “vibe” that relies upon a self-reinforcing in-group. A social construct. #philosophy #modernism #postmodern #culture #politics #religion
(DIR) Post #APW0NeYz81pDRnRPOq by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:40:18Z
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@lack #atheism that hold up to its marketing has to be able to logically refute every kind of supernatural “woo”, not just the most conspicuous or ridiculous sort. #skeptics #skepticism And #rationalist materialism that lives up to its marketing, regrettably, does not exist.
(DIR) Post #APW0dcwytRGD4uHYFU by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:43:12Z
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@lack well, are you an atheist or an agnostic?
(DIR) Post #APW1FWGMCnUhLEPh4a by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:50:04Z
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@lack “it’s god unless you can prove it’s not” because, well, how would you define god - except as an intelligence, a personality, that exists before and independent of the natural world? Before there was a God, there were gods. I live in my body, I move it around like a vehicle, grandma used to live in her body, grandma’s vehicle broke down, she no longer sits in her vehicle. This is the default way of seeing the world.
(DIR) Post #APW1zGS7Ju0Dcxj88e by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T03:58:19Z
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@lack It’s easy to imagine oneself as an invisible, airy force-field looking out of one’s eyes and moving one’s legs. It is very difficult to imagine one’s self as the sum total of electrified eye-cells and brain-cells and leg-cells. Otherwise I would be no different than an alarm clock, or an internal combustion engine - and I am a person. I have feelings.
(DIR) Post #APW2QtknJ5mFKwdjZg by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T04:03:19Z
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@lack it seems that I have more in common with a squirrel or a lizard than I do with the Charles Babbage mechanical adding machine. The squirrel has Life in it, which it received from its lineage and ancestors, just like I have life from my ancestors. And Life has existed in an un-interrupted chain, since, well, the dawn of time! Before that, even! Who knows! Maybe this elder sage knows, he seems to have something witty to say, every time he sniffs that flower
(DIR) Post #APWCWZ4C8JEGSL3Sr2 by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T05:56:22Z
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@b_chocolatey A good question!The answer is that it depends on exactly what we're talking about and what exactly we mean by those words.For some definitions of God I positively believe those do not exist. This might be because they are impossible or self-contradictory.For other definitions of God, I just do not hold the belief that they exist. This might be for a of reasons... Sometimes they're not well defined. Sometimes the person proposing the idea hasn't shown me a good enough reason to believe it's true.I'm honestly confused why people claim to believe in gods when they don't have a good reason, or don't have a clear idea of what even it is to make a determination as to if it's real or not.So I do not believe in any God or gods, and I am pretty sure there aren't any, but I also have enough epistemic humility to admit I could be wrong.What would you call that?
(DIR) Post #APWEfL0xwnxNOAr7i4 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:20:23Z
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@lack I would say that you are half-agnostic, or soft atheist, in that case.
(DIR) Post #APWFDh9o80dbuPNGD2 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:26:25Z
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@lack As for myself, I would say that I am a post-modernist, in the sense that I have two different definitions of “god” which seem to mostly overlap. If you ever have seen #MattWalsh do his troll routine of “what is a woman?” I would say that my own belief system can boil down to “What is a god?” Trolls #Christians and #atheists equally. #woman #women #adulthumanfemale …
(DIR) Post #APWFDwWL0WZZYd1xuS by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:26:23Z
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@lack As for myself, I would say that I am a post-modernist, in the sense that I have two different definitions of “god” which seem to mostly overlap. If you ever have seen #MattWalsh do his troll routine of “what is a woman?” I would say that my own belief system can boil down to “What is a god?” Trolls #Christians and #atheists equally. #woman #women #adulthumanfemale …
(DIR) Post #APWFXkypcl1NYbo3oO by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:30:12Z
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@lack definition 1: God is Soul. God is Person. God is Life. God is Mind. The origin of the inner experience of sentient organisms. Sensation, memory, intention, emotion, survival instinct… love, bonding, companionship. Everything that separates us from mere mechanical cause-and-effect that controls steam engines and stopwatches.
(DIR) Post #APWFXlh8y0Szm2XRse by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:30:13Z
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@lack definition 1: God is Soul. God is Person. God is Life. God is Mind. The origin of the inner experience of sentient organisms. Sensation, memory, intention, emotion, survival instinct… love, bonding, companionship. Everything that separates us from mere mechanical cause-and-effect that controls steam engines and stopwatches.
(DIR) Post #APWFz7sSbJFiOGsQz2 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:35:10Z
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@lack That having been said, it is possible that Consciousness has naturalistic origins that have yet to be discovered, at the quantum level. That, for example, it arises when energy is transformed into information, passes through logic-gates on very very fast timescales - that certain types of computers are naturally sentient. I think the odds are against it; I think that the problem of consciousness will remain a hard problem that is never cracked via scientific inquiry.
(DIR) Post #APWGSokeH7tTlANgu0 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:40:31Z
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@lack definition 2: God is what is rightfully deserving of worship - that which is encountered through religious experience. Certain things people naturally discuss- and should discuss, in reverential tones, when they try to describe it accurately. When people speak of the Vastness of the Universe, the Beauty of Music, the Finality of Death, and so forth; these are things that, when I capitalize them, you know why. These are all emanations of God. It has always been understood thus.
(DIR) Post #APWGrDCwzww8YnFdw0 by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:44:56Z
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@lack Perhaps a third definition is in order, which somewhat overlaps with the first two. The symbolic, the sympathetic magic, that points to the first two. The Statue of Liberty is an example of this: a personified, anthromorphized representation of a philosophical abstraction, namely, liberty. The statue is beautiful and well-made, and is intended to refer to an Idea that is beautiful and timeless. This is, after all, why religious icons were first introduced in pre-Abrahamic times. The Statue of Liberty is a goddess in the literal, historical sense.
(DIR) Post #APWH9tpzF0E1zCQAYC by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:48:19Z
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@lack this second and third definition seems to be what Kipling was referring to in the poetic demand to “take up the white man’s burden.” Look closely at the line, “and weigh your gods, and you.”
(DIR) Post #APWHvHZEpcXJC3BHLE by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T06:56:52Z
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@lack #spirituality #pagan #Buddhist #religion #faith #Christianity #atheist #sutra #sutta #witch #wicca #wiccan #pantheist #dharma
(DIR) Post #APWJ4WDfpAn5CG3vSi by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T07:09:44Z
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@b_chocolatey I agree that those things exist, (at least if you are keeping the physicslist-compatible definition of "soul" = "self") but I am not sure what is "godly" about them. I'm also not sure that those separate us from cause and effect. I think all the things you mentioned are part of a very complicated web of causes and effects.
(DIR) Post #APWJJQzpWiKtLBhQo4 by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T07:12:19Z
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@b_chocolatey can you help me understand why? What is it about consciousness that you think makes it unlikely or impossible to be understood from a purely physical or scientific stance?
(DIR) Post #APWJZOihl0sUulIjYm by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-12T07:15:19Z
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@b_chocolatey I wonder how you feel about the fact that different cultures at different times have had different things they hold reverent? Do these "emanations of God" change over time? Or are you more referring to the fact that humans have a "reverence" emotion?
(DIR) Post #APWMCi2e3NvU2dV7qK by b_chocolatey@qoto.org
2022-11-12T07:44:51Z
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@lack what I’m saying is that the reverence emotion is morally correct, objectively speaking; and that somebody totally lacking it is morally defective. There is of course some level of reasonable disagreement over how to express it and to what end; because “now we see through a glass, darkly”. #1Cor13 #1Corinthians13 #Bible
(DIR) Post #APZ702neeEv6oqs7RA by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-13T15:38:35Z
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@b_chocolatey I think I see what you mean.But if something is hard to imagine, does that make it false? If it leads to a conclusion we don't like, does that make it false?Are these good reasons for concluding that the "self" is not or cannot be a physical thing?
(DIR) Post #APZ8Jcob4J35yUDI8G by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-13T15:52:56Z
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@b_chocolateyI think that there is a kind of "movement atheism" or "new atheist culture" that might fit some of what you're talking about here. That part is indeed a social construct.However, there is a fact I'm reality that God either exists or not. And I might believe one way or the other (or neither), that actual belief I hold (or do not hold) is not itself a social construct.My beliefs are influenced by the culture I'm in, but I can still interrogate the truth or falsehood of that belief on its own, if I practice some epistemic humility and honesty when I think about why I hold such a belief.
(DIR) Post #APZ8KwGOFIPSa8q8CO by lack@lor.sh
2022-11-13T15:53:30Z
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@b_chocolateyI think that there is a kind of "movement atheism" or "new atheist culture" that might fit some of what you're talking about here. That part is indeed a social construct.However, there is a fact in reality that God either exists or not. And I might believe one way or the other (or neither), that actual belief I hold (or do not hold) is not itself a social construct.My beliefs are influenced by the culture I'm in, but I can still interrogate the truth or falsehood of that belief on its own, if I practice some epistemic humility and honesty when I think about why I hold such a belief.
(DIR) Post #APZE7nNmYJHz00Ph9k by bane@www.banepo.st
2022-11-13T16:58:27.505126Z
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@lack Why are you specifically attacking Jesus and a Christian God, and only referencing "other religion" as a side note? Is there something you're afraid of talking about? The way you go on about branding yourself an atheist, making an entire account about "lack of belief", tells me that you are a fake and a satanist.Btw, it's obvious that you're a kike, and you're a mentally disabled pedophile.
(DIR) Post #APZa78vl9LvqWzOruC by Noided@sleepy.cafe
2022-11-13T21:04:50.472439Z
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@lack didnt you get run off twitter cause it turned out you touched your 7y/o sister and you didnt see the problem with it cause you were 16 and "not an adult" yet
(DIR) Post #APZaTLoFwl7SqTTosy by cesare@letsalllovela.in
2022-11-13T21:08:11.821992Z
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@lack when im jail my muslim niggas treat me very well even though i tell em i aint too religious