Post APMPd0LZSjIlLjBXWa by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
(DIR) More posts by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
(DIR) Post #APMOyxCridz01h11jE by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:28:52Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
For all the great aspects of Mastodon, let's also be honest and mention its shortcomings: 1) no easy way to discover content 2) most instances have poor, default landing pages that explain nothing 3) no algorithm at all - chronological order is fine, but I'd want to also see the most popular or most relevant content for me (when I need it, not by default) #mastodon
(DIR) Post #APMP1hl7boOazALmj2 by fenharellan@todon.eu
2022-11-07T12:29:20Z
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@boilingsteam content discovery relies on hashtags, for the most part
(DIR) Post #APMP2zikJU1uyxr184 by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:29:35Z
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@fenharellan That's not content discovery, that's blind luck.
(DIR) Post #APMP8VXZR4Ij7LFvBw by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:30:35Z
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Unfortunately it seems that nobody at the helm of Mastodon development cares about fixing any of these 3 basic issues. You know what to do. If you care about them too, Boost.
(DIR) Post #APMPFELFmJDrnthTO4 by Zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com
2022-11-07T12:31:49.934463Z
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@boilingsteam Those are all features. Mastodon's real shortcomings are tiny arbitrary limits (eg. attachment counts) and being a fat fuck of a bloatware.
(DIR) Post #APMPJafSiFoiClEQN6 by selea@social.linux.pizza
2022-11-07T12:32:31Z
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@boilingsteamTrending hashtags...? @fenharellan
(DIR) Post #APMPSHRFZliHAljBYG by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:34:10Z
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@selea @fenharellan That would be a start, while not enough
(DIR) Post #APMPSfMSdE8tMrfhQ0 by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-07T12:34:14.867121Z
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I tend to agree with you in the first two points, but I think for a lot of people the third point is a feature not a bug.
(DIR) Post #APMPXz32rcgxsD7qyG by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:35:12Z
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@Zerglingman No, those are not features. Poor presentation of an instance is not a feature, it's just sheet laziness. No easy way to discover content is a disservice to everyone using the service. And sorting algorithms are fine to have as long as they are FOSS.
(DIR) Post #APMPZOuED7vYMLg3Rg by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:35:27Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Zerglingman No, those are not features. Poor presentation of an instance is not a feature, it's just sheer laziness. No easy way to discover content is a disservice to everyone using the service. And sorting algorithms are fine to have as long as they are FOSS.
(DIR) Post #APMPd0LZSjIlLjBXWa by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:36:06Z
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@sj_zero It's only a feature if you follow 5 people, it becomes a PITA when you follow 100.
(DIR) Post #APMPdIUjzNKddNc7Jg by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:36:09.074145Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@boilingsteam 1) just open up TWKN2) mastodon has awful anon visitor experience overall, their "landing pages" suck, but at least it's still better that ones at misskey3) you'd need to define what "popular" is, especially when it comes to entire network, there's @rt bot that reprööts stuff that had a lot of repeats or something, but that's about it. As for "what's relevant to you", well, to have that you'd need surveillance to figure out what's relevant to you in the first place, and many people simply don't want that, which in turn makes it even more difficult to find relevant content/people.There were some "recommended users" service on fedi in 2019 or so, but I think it's gone/dead by now. We even had somewhat of an integration on pleroma for it.The solution nowadays is "just open up TWKN" and/or "follow random people", but you gotta have some noise-filtering skills. Fedi's a landline/phone network, not a yellowpages service.
(DIR) Post #APMPmWguZowKGlhuhU by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-07T12:37:50.329832Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Definitely a different kind of experience when you're following a few hundred people.on peak times the feed blasts by quickly!
(DIR) Post #APMPmbcqENefZaqEYC by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:37:49Z
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@sj_zero Just think about it. Which chronological only thread, you end up seeing the most noisy people, not everyone (i.e. the ones who toot all the time). That's against balancing share-of-voice.
(DIR) Post #APMPopVVadmpCoTKHQ by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:38:14Z
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@sj_zero Just think about it. With a chronological-only feed, you end up seeing the most noisy people, not everyone (i.e. the ones who toot all the time). That's against balancing share-of-voice.
(DIR) Post #APMPpUM1inYztHLph2 by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:38:20.457940Z
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@boilingsteam @fenharellan any sort of implementation of "content discovery" on federated network with no megacorp backing it would end up being "blind luck".
(DIR) Post #APMPr35k3RAlurThHE by ImboSlice@chaos.social
2022-11-07T12:38:33Z
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@boilingsteam As far as I understand it they do indeed care about these issues - however, they chose not to approach them the easy way or the way other platforms did, which drove unbecoming traits among the user base.Like, there's an understandable reason why you can't quote reply. One may not like it, but that's how things are handled here. And I do think it's the Fediverse's strength that it chose a different route.
(DIR) Post #APMPspjEi07n3Cnn6m by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:38:57Z
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@hj @fenharellan It does not have to be on the whole network first, things can start at the instance level where this is really easy to do.
(DIR) Post #APMPzcOuex1Dk5X0Nc by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:40:11Z
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@ImboSlice > And I do think it's the Fediverse's strength that it chose a different route.Not all choices are equally good or strong. Some are bad too. Why do we have short character limits like on Twitter? We don't need such restrictions here. Why polls only have a maximum of 4 choices? And so on.
(DIR) Post #APMQ1hl1iMMCw1rzG4 by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:40:31.862841Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@boilingsteam @fenharellan negatory, this only applies to morbiusly a beast large instances like mastosoc, for 90% of the instances this would end up showing its admin or person of the time of the day that posts a lot.
(DIR) Post #APMQ8a4EhkqR6y8LLM by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-07T12:41:49.210585Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Particularly early on I had to unfollow some people for that reason, so you're not wrong. I guess the question just has to be how sinister is the algorithm? Because I would argue that a "let's find anything that looks like you will interact with it" algorithm could potentially be a really great for getting your blood pressure up but not that great for improving things overall. On the other hand, something like a weighted thing so your feed isn't completely overwhelmed by people who post every 30 seconds it could help you see a greater cross-section of the posts from people you follow...
(DIR) Post #APMQAuBes4LO5giIu8 by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:42:13Z
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@hj @fenharellan Mastodon, just like every other network, follows the rule of 80% users falling into 20% of all instances. So for them, it would make a lot of sense since they already belong to large instances. And you don't have to make it mandatory at the instance level, make it a server flag that can be turned on or off. We are FOSS after all.
(DIR) Post #APMQF4kfX9eG0z4uIK by ImboSlice@chaos.social
2022-11-07T12:42:55Z
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@boilingsteam isn't it up to the instance admins on where to set the character limit?
(DIR) Post #APMQHRZPfMzPMdwUeu by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:43:24Z
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@sj_zero The solution is not just one algorithm, but a marketplace of algorithm that you can choose from. That would be a much stronger model that whatever happens on other networks. And make all of those FOSS by default so that they can inspected and improved upon.
(DIR) Post #APMQIbVKDWV6SoaFHc by memo@tilde.zone
2022-11-07T12:43:36Z
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@boilingsteam I think you want mastodon to work like Twitter. Even if they do share the microblogging aspect, they're extremely different and for good reasons.1) What's the issue with hashtags and local/federated timelines? Isn't that a very good method to discover new and active people? I don't want someone else to choose for me.2) Isn't that up to the instance's admin? I don't see how this is a coding issue. Many instances have more than enough informations on their /about/more page.3) I expecially left Twitter because I didn't want to be spoonfed with popular content that an AI thought I would like - but that aside, the way the federated network works makes this close to impossible; all of your data would need to travel across all the instances and somehow those instances would need to put power into understanding what you could possibly like, or something of the sort? Trust me, I understand how weird it can be at first - but give it enough time and it'll start making sense to you. And indeed, hashtags are much more useful here than on Twitter!
(DIR) Post #APMQIrHNZ8qtOCBKlc by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:43:40Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@sj_zero The solution is not just one algorithm, but a marketplace of algorithms that you can choose from. That would be a much stronger model that whatever happens on other networks. And make all of those FOSS by default so that they can be inspected and improved upon.
(DIR) Post #APMQMmIs0ZQn7BkSKO by memo@tilde.zone
2022-11-07T12:44:22Z
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@boilingsteam I think you want mastodon to work like Twitter. Even if they do share the microblogging aspect, they're extremely different and for good reasons.1) What's the issue with hashtags and local/federated timelines? Isn't that a very good method to discover new and active people? I don't want someone else to choose for me.2) Isn't that up to the instance's admin? I don't see how this is a coding issue. Many instances have more than enough informations on their /about/more page.3) I expecially left Twitter because I didn't want to be spoonfed with popular content that an AI thought I would like - but that aside, the way the federated network works makes this close to impossible; all of your data would need to travel across all the instances and somehow those instances would need to put power into understanding what you could possibly like, or something of the sort?
(DIR) Post #APMQYI6q5w3Owdbvhg by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:46:25.465148Z
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@boilingsteam @fenharellan yeah and 80% of people on the network are paranoid nerds who seethe at any mention of surveillance, so expect that flag to be opt-in and enabled on 20% of the 20% of the 20% of the instances, making it essentially local-only.The problem however is the know-how and the interest in the feature. Very few people are interested in this feature and even less people know how to implement it.
(DIR) Post #APMQZ8akxwsliU0YYS by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:46:36Z
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@memo 1) hashtags are not sorted in anyway so you get in the big bazaar, nothing like a recommendation engine. And that supposes you know what you are looking for in the first place.2) You can make better defaults instead of the shitty landing page that every instance has right now, with some kind of random selection of inactive accounts. 3) You can be better than Twitter. FOSS algorithms that you are in control of, on the end-user side. Make it chronological by default but empower the users
(DIR) Post #APMQeXcRLKHQmiN8Bk by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:47:34Z
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@hj @fenharellan You can implement a popularity algorithm (for example) in a totally anonymous way, so it's not antithetical.
(DIR) Post #APMQgbAB8XjGM88MuO by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:47:56.199541Z
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@boilingsteam @fenharellan how?
(DIR) Post #APMQlQjzJZ29TmBgjg by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:48:49.110925Z
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@boilingsteam @memo >You can make better defaults instead of the shitty landing page that every instance has right now, with some kind of random selection of inactive accounts. Excuse me, every >>mastodon<< instance (and misskey instance)Most pleroma instances show essentially what's on the inside. About pages can be a bit lacking, but otherwise it's what you see is what you get.
(DIR) Post #APMQyn2Nj9jKObA4MS by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2022-11-07T12:50:46.984627Z
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@boilingsteam @ImboSlice Those are Mastodon choices though, not Fediverse.Pleroma limits posts to 5K characters and polls to 20 options, all of those easily changeable for admins as a configuration option, also no limit on the number of attachments here, while Mastodon limits those to 4.And it's not just a Pleroma thing, Friendica also has a limit of something like 15K characters by default.
(DIR) Post #APMQzLQJsf532gcfOS by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:51:20Z
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@hj @fenharellan Hash every message out there that's being posted, track the most popular hashes delivered to end-users, on the server side, and you have a solution that does not encompass tracking of accounts.
(DIR) Post #APMR2DalSFCRccsWO0 by Jack5150@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-07T12:51:53Z
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@boilingsteam I like the no algo aspect. I look at the local and fedi tab and if someone looks interesting I follow them. Everything is under your control instead of someone else. Everyone is equal.Once you get an algo suddenly stories about certain topics such as Hunter Biden are suppressed.
(DIR) Post #APMR44K4t7BPSAxJqK by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:52:10.751372Z
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@boilingsteam @fenharellan define "popular"
(DIR) Post #APMR5VAEZvBuzQ2DM8 by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:52:27Z
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@lanodan @ImboSlice We all know that defaults are usually implemented as is when people deploy instances. If the current defaults settings are not so hot, it's worth revisiting them.
(DIR) Post #APMR9zTfobvKADGfFg by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:53:16Z
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@hj @fenharellan you can define it differently. 1) accessed 2) favorited 3) boosted 4) interacted with - all great ways to think about content that's getting some attention
(DIR) Post #APMRFtf0MASTrLNsjA by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T12:54:20Z
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@hj @fenharellan you can define it in different ways. 1) accessed 2) favorited 3) boosted 4) interacted with - all great ways to think about content that's getting some attention
(DIR) Post #APMRHouiyUjxiYecFc by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2022-11-07T12:54:00.324269Z
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@boilingsteam @ImboSlice Well for Mastodon they are hardcoded, so it's not just a deployment issue, admins wanting to change those limits need to patch the code.
(DIR) Post #APMRM7ZLYbHqjZhoUy by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:55:27.216444Z
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@boilingsteam @fenharellan not replying to this because of delete and redraft, learn to amend your shit dekudasai
(DIR) Post #APMRTc1kiFi3E2Z3C4 by divVerent@explosion.party
2022-11-07T12:54:24.032656Z
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@hj @boilingsteam @fenharellan You are giving me an idea. "Blind luck". Sounds good actually. I like it.My main problem with apparently all Fedi implementations is there is too much of a temporal aspect - I do not have time to view my timeline since I last logged off, so I only read recent stuff. That biases towards people who are online at similar times.What if I could instead see "20 random posts within the last 24h", including boosted and reacted content? That scales with popular content as that gets more boosts and reactions.Should be able to implement this easily with the toot CLI...
(DIR) Post #APMRTcaUd5UyxmonLM by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T12:56:48.320022Z
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@divVerent @boilingsteam @fenharellan for the > I do not have time to view my timeline since I last logged off, so I only read recent stuff.i usually have separate lists just to read up what people who are truly important to me are posting, while home timeline is a mess
(DIR) Post #APMS80zZJVOEEfoB4S by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T13:04:05.694514Z
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@boilingsteam @lanodan @ImboSlice we do revisit our defaults every once in a while, and our default limit is 5000.But we are pleroma, not mastodon. Also I'm not sure if it's a "default" at all, i think it's still hard-coded and unchangeable, you need glitchsoc or whatever fork is to even have it customizable, but maybe i'm just stuck in 2020
(DIR) Post #APMSC7Ghv61OrNmS36 by chris@n-odes.social
2022-11-07T13:04:45Z
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@boilingsteam 1. I think the real issue with the first two stem from the kind of "customer" expectations that many people will have. You don't find "content" here as much as community and people, so no one has prioritized content discovery. 2. Agreed on landing pages, but I think it's because no one is trying to sell you anything, nor win you over ~ unless they are, in which case you're right. 3. Hashtags show popularity, but the OP decides which meta-conversations to join.
(DIR) Post #APMSwJjRuekcptFqTI by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T13:13:12Z
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@hj @fenharellan delete and redraft is a nice feature 😉
(DIR) Post #APMT0YXUnmSXuygVqy by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T13:13:58Z
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@hj @divVerent @fenharellan Which means the home timeline is mostly useless once you follow many people, because they never considered communities with more than 10 users.
(DIR) Post #APMT7odPMGZRrcuaXo by boilingsteam@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T13:15:17Z
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@lanodan @ImboSlice Or you know, make this part of the interface of what to select intentionally when setting an instance up, as part of caring about those who make the extra step to join the federated network
(DIR) Post #APMXV96nnlQBqA2aq8 by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-11-07T14:04:18.298810Z
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@boilingsteam @fenharellan nice feature if you like pain
(DIR) Post #APMg5AV4u8wwDM5Ee0 by toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud
2022-11-07T15:40:27Z
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@boilingsteam I agree to all of this, as well as the fact that adding automatic translation is needed as well
(DIR) Post #APMgR0pnWS2wbiBtvE by ceremus@mstdn.social
2022-11-07T15:44:22Z
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@boilingsteam Good points for discoverability, although I don't see any algorithm for this place on the horizon. On the hellbird site, algorithmically trending topics are frequently hijacked and manipulated by bad actors running bot networks. Even if it wasn't the technical challenge that it sounds to be, I figure they're going to stay far away from it.
(DIR) Post #APNCjslSwmyZc9CrOi by breizh@pleroma.breizh.pm
2022-11-07T13:57:05.598094Z
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@boilingsteam 1/ Don’t care, I discover it by my first contact, and step by step, I now have an already very full TL. 2/ That’s true. 3/ Don’t care. We are on a social network.We do not have the same desires, Mastodon does not seek to replace Twitter. It’s just another network, with another operation. Users choose what they want.If the third point is for you the main interest of Twitter, stay there, it seems perfectly suited to me. Personally, it is the social exchange that counts the most.