Post APCaFDPLUfYR7OOL8S by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
(DIR) More posts by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
(DIR) Post #AOuJaWBOjCCjpMLM4O by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-24T23:16:27.403831Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
o wait, IBM actually shipped consumer(-esque) computers with microkernels back in 1986..........huhhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RT_PC#Software
(DIR) Post #AOuJr6VTRd5D7Jdu5I by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-24T23:19:30.801873Z
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the RT PC is not known to have been a success, looks :thinksphere:
(DIR) Post #AOvHC48nKXar9lIYOe by vertigo@hackers.town
2022-10-24T23:30:56Z
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@xerz Ahh, the RS/6000's progenitor, as I recall.
(DIR) Post #AOvHCPaVahEvfnQU0e by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T10:24:27.700637Z
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@vertigo correct :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #AOvHNS76XZjagxwAmO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T10:26:26.813177Z
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@vertigo correct :blobcatuwu: also related with the Apple/IBM stuff I was looking up, the RS/6000 was also one of the few platforms which implemented CHRP, which was meant to be the open standard for computers… no Taligent to run with it, or really any non-IBM OS, but they tried :blobcatgoogly:
(DIR) Post #AOvqymHxzOfuNHYFo8 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T17:05:15.165874Z
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in more IBM stuffs, til OS/2 for PowerPC (remember the RS/6000 ended up adopting it alongside CHRP) actually used a microkernel as well… interesting to see how it essentially was used as a hypervisor, not too differently from Mac OS’ nanokernel or Windows/386’s VxD/VMM https://archive.org/details/Sg244630
(DIR) Post #AOvrwB9TC1FiZStyOO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T17:16:01.916825Z
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(I wonder where I left that one reply I made to @vertigo quoting PC Mag on Windows stuff now…)
(DIR) Post #AOvxCcxw34HPErAYQi by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T18:15:03.485493Z
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I can’t believe this ad actually explicitly mentions both OS/2 as an eventual successor and 8086 virtual machinesit also is #cringehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noEHHB6rnMI
(DIR) Post #AOw2yct68oswfRc6T2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T19:19:37.923762Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
wait what https://hackaday.com/2019/06/20/the-os-2-operating-system-didnt-die-it-went-underground/
(DIR) Post #AOw38KD4RKxtdQa2XQ by vertigo@hackers.town
2022-10-25T18:26:03Z
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@xerz oh God, what did I just watch?! I need some teletubbies to wash that visage out of my cerebral cortex, and I despise the teletubbies!
(DIR) Post #AOw38Kk2SlKvHg0MvQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T19:21:33.277088Z
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@vertigo what, you don’t randomly start rapping about corporate products in your office as you change clothes for a skit and some background music plays completely off tone and desynchronized? :blobcatderpp
(DIR) Post #AOw39AG2vWF73iN9Oa by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T19:21:42.910172Z
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@vertigo what, you don’t randomly start rapping about corporate products in your office as you change clothes for a skit and some background music plays completely off tone and desynchronized? :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #AOw3eJUgdYJugJ4bo0 by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-10-25T19:27:18Z
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@xerz Yup, Classic Microsoft. They screwed up IBM and OS/2 so bad.
(DIR) Post #AOw4pZvfyGganIdISe by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T19:40:32.378558Z
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@ParadeGrotesque ngl I’m much more surprised that IBM already got there in the first place than Microsoft acting Microsofty
(DIR) Post #AOw4vEHPNO29O3UavY by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-10-25T19:41:35Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz IBM had some pretty good programmers at one point.But they are long gone now.
(DIR) Post #AOw4zeOIEoLZWkoxhQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T19:42:23.878068Z
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Diving further into OS/2 for PowerPC: the IBM microkernel was, in fact, Workplace OS, where indeed it acted as a hypervisor for different “personalities” https://www.os2museum.com/wp/os2-history/os2-warp-powerpc-edition/
(DIR) Post #AOw6TRrpSsSvKNPPLU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T19:58:54.652899Z
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There were three so-called personalities: stuff for the microkernel was “personality neutral”, whereas the OS/2 personality acted as the “dominant” one… and the “MVM personality” was also added to emulate x86 computers with MS-DOS and Windows.It actually seemingly worked pretty well according to that article, but it was underwhelming compared to the initial promise of PowerPC computers that did it all, including superflexible, document-oriented OOP with Taligent (which TalOS… also had the exact same goals as Workplace OS???)
(DIR) Post #AOw6exsulTa1oVPMAK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T20:01:03.958890Z
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It’s cool to see Workplace OS survived, but everyone praised Taligent before that and the public has only seen like 4 screenshots so far“In mid-1991, Apple CEO John Sculley bragged that Apple had written 1.5 million lines of code for Pink.“ I mean WHAThttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent#Pink_system(which further makes the duplicity between it and Workplace OSabsurd)
(DIR) Post #AOw6gLTiWuWZHGHRpY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T20:01:19.680686Z
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It’s cool to see Workplace OS survived, but everyone praised Taligent before that and the public has only seen like 4 screenshots so far“In mid-1991, Apple CEO John Sculley bragged that Apple had written 1.5 million lines of code for Pink.“ I mean WHAThttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent#Pink_system(which further makes the duplicity between it and Workplace OS absurd)
(DIR) Post #AOw6ptomE17sO0gcqW by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T20:03:02.736953Z
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90s Apple was the coolest, meanwhile 90s IBM was… peculiar
(DIR) Post #AOw7DcFBDVh6paLT5U by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T20:07:17.241426Z
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Ultimately it’s funny, because the more I learn about Taligent (and Workplace OS perhaps), the more it looks like my ideal OS concept.Definitely not the same however.
(DIR) Post #AOwEjNfBf5hoYXbUG0 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T21:31:21.957870Z
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anyway, this is the legacy of the IBM RT PC(‘s successor) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzhCGSE7KKw
(DIR) Post #AOwFCx6WyJiMs9UhrU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T21:36:49.275392Z
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absolute kudos for the Bash bashing :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #AOwGfaMmgoQYhjJWoC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T21:53:09.960043Z
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…who would ever willingly choose to go around and look up old GLUT code to fix the IBM drivers for OpenGL…
(DIR) Post #AOwGgvOQ023GCpiVNY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T21:53:28.798076Z
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…who would ever willingly choose to go around and look up old GLUT code to fix the IBM implementation of OpenGL…
(DIR) Post #AOwKsDB8c1VSMz8taS by vertigo@hackers.town
2022-10-25T22:03:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz
(DIR) Post #AOwKtmutE0jtUyIIro by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T22:40:10.130154Z
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@vertigo :blobcatnom:
(DIR) Post #AOwMqavvWPznNANtM8 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:02:22.225992Z
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next up I’ll probably be taking a dive into OS/2 Warp, since I thought its OOP capabilities were more of a corporate thing… until I stumbled upon this by mistake https://www.stardock.com/products/od20/
(DIR) Post #AOwN7NBpsAffffpHXc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:05:26.742589Z
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I wonder if I can find any “Dynamic Interface Modules” anywhere at all… if not, the Look and Feel Creation Kit should hopefully help out and is available here https://www.os2site.com/sw/util/objectdesktop/index.html
(DIR) Post #AOwP2vks8ImHKjDvCC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:27:02.613728Z
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Here’s a bit of promo material on Workspace OS from the very first Developer Connection CD http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Workplace_OSs:_Doors_to_the_Future
(DIR) Post #AOwPVKLEJZcbh9loDQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:32:12.601391Z
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Here’s a bit of promo material on Workspace OS from the very first Developer Connection CD http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Workplace_OSs:_Doors_to_the_Future
(DIR) Post #AOwPagPdgMPvayO1BI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:33:11.993123Z
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and uhhpssst, if you have a full copy of Inside Taligent Technology, pls tell me so :blobcateyes: glad to confirm my suspicions might be well-founded tho: “All in all, it looks like yet another failure due to C++ introducing unmanageable complexity throughout the system.“https://www.dei.isep.ipp.pt/~alex/OSes.htm
(DIR) Post #AOwPuT4SzlXk0cuw1w by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:36:45.104783Z
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(actually, CommonPoint was release for AIX and OS/2, right…?)
(DIR) Post #AOwPvDMorrYXarrF1U by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:36:54.674601Z
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(actually, CommonPoint was released for AIX and OS/2, right…?)
(DIR) Post #AOwQ7Nli1NTlKPIlV2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:39:03.183905Z
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goddammit
(DIR) Post #AOwQD6ylMBr6zh8hdI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:40:08.588851Z
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I was the project lead on the IBM Microkernel. I did the technical analysis that was used to convince Taligent to use IBM’s Microkernel in place of their own internally-developed Opus microkernel. I subsequently moved to Taligent to work on the low-level tasking, synchronization, and memory management facilities for the Mach-based TalOS. I have a unique perspective on the failure of Taligent since I was a low-level player on both sides of the IBM-Taligent Microkernel struggles at one time or another. (Caveat: That doesn’t mean anything I say is correct. These are all just personal opinions and observations, nothing more.)Here a number of things that come to mind:Joint ventures are hard. Apple and IBM entered into the deal, each with their own set of priorities and they were not necessarily aligned. Apple seemed to treat Taligent with benign neglect. IBM tended to give it too much attention at times. I’m sure that trying to keep the parents happy and engaged took considerable executive attention away from running Taligent as a viable independent entity.IBM didn’t really want a separate Taligent Operating System. The person in charge of IBM’s Taligent strategy was also in charge of IBM’s Workplace OS strategy, which was an IBM Microkernel (Mach) based OS that could run OS/2, AIX, and DOS personalities (VMs). A Pink personality was certainly given lip service to, but as time went on, it seemed that IBM was only interested in propagating Workplace OS with OS/2. In the months prior to Taligent abandoning its operating system, IBM made a play to force the TalOS group to switch to just writing device drivers for IBM’s Workplace OS. They didn’t succeed. And it was only a matter of time before TalOS was abandoned. I’m not privy to what was discussed in the C-level suite, but I cannot imagine IBM was wishing Taligent well with its OS.What Taligent was attempting to do was unprecedented. It’s class dependency diagrams were circular and hellacious. There was an architectural attitude that OO changed the rules and the type of layering of services used in other systems was out-of-date thinking. The issues created by these circular dependencies were serious and made startup and shutdown of the system impossible without some restructuring. Though we got the lower-levels of the system working on the IBM Microkernel and the upper layers (what would later be known as CommonPoint) were working on top of a compatibility layer on AIX, we never got TalOS put together as one piece.The OO-based I/O driver model never got completed. This was partially due to political pressure from IBM trying to get us to drop the model and just adopt Workplace OS procedural drivers (essentially making Pink a personality on Workplace OS) and partially due to it just being a hard problem that needed more time to implement than the inter-company political runway allowed. That said, the I/O group did a remarkable job of getting parts of it working, even after the decision was made to kill the OS.Worse than pressures from IBM over the direction of the OS work and the lagging schedule, Taligent was unable to find much demand in the market for a new OS. People loved the value that the upper layers of Pink would offer, but it seemed no one loved the idea of yet another operating system. With neither Apple nor IBM champing at the bit to sell TalOS-based systems, there was little reason to continue working on the OS.Less than a year after Taligent dropped the OS to concentrate on CommonPoint, I left the company because my interest was in low-level systems. It was just too disheartening for me to stay.Here are some of the reasons I think Taligent was unable to make CommonPoint successful:The complexity of the frameworks. We used to joke that the frameworks were so powerful that you could write any program in three lines of code, but it would take you 6 months to figure out what those three lines were.Changing priorities of Apple, IBM (and by that time HP) caused shifts in company outlook and direction.Shortly after I left Taligent, the first CEO, Joe Guglielmi resigned. His replacement was Dick Guarino from IBM. Unfortunately, Dick Guarino died of a heart attack very soon after taking over. The instability at the top may have influenced how Taligent’s parents viewed the company. But, I suspect the writing was on the wall with Joe G’s departure. By spring of 1996, IBM had bought out Apple and HP, leaving Taligent as a wholly-owned subsidiary of IBM. At that point, I suspect IBM was merely looking to use whatever Taligent technology they liked in other IBM products.Could Taligent have made CommonPoint a success had they had sufficient time and autonomy? That’s a question that will never be answered.
(DIR) Post #AOwQVmdXDIwFPC76Jc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-25T23:43:29.293878Z
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So TalOS was Mach too after all, interesting :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #AOxLRZsIPmnu3P9YP2 by vertigo@hackers.town
2022-10-26T05:44:07Z
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@xerz OMG. They mention my old kernel Dolphin. Hah!! Those were the days!
(DIR) Post #AOxN8QtTmVWybehnJQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-26T10:40:19.508318Z
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@vertigo oh ye, didn’t notice that part! neat you see you had enough of that impact that it was felt in Portugal at the time :blobcatuwu: seems like there are no copies of your OpenProjects site alive anymore tho :blobcatsadreach:
(DIR) Post #AOxiswcIGcC7LpgdE0 by vertigo@hackers.town
2022-10-26T14:25:03Z
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@xerz Not anymore. I think, on one of my spare hard drives, I have the source code to the boot sector to Dolphin 0.5. I literally think that's all that remains of that project.
(DIR) Post #AOxisx78PwretU7GIS by crc@toot.forth.works
2022-10-26T14:41:58.885496Z
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@vertigo @xerz Looking at my archives, I have a copy of the bootsector code, which was from Dolphin 0.4.0. (The README lists this as bootsector 2.1, but the $id in the bootsect.S shows 2.3) http://forthworks.com/temp/dolphin-bootsector-2.1.tar.gz or gopher://forthworks.com/9/temp/dolphin-bootsector-2.1.tar.gz
(DIR) Post #AP2dHWWolul5kEGJHs by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-28T23:34:51.519045Z
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OS/2… tomorrow :blobcatfluffowo: but before that, here’s something I found out: eComStation has been essentially dead for the last decade, but there’s an alternative now…that is still oddly expensivehttps://www.arcanoae.com/
(DIR) Post #AP2dNCwWVETMjszoDw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-28T23:35:53.978808Z
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I wonder how do these people manage to get a hold on the OS/2 source code rights and why is it that in both cases it hasn’t resulted on any open sourcing :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #AP2dQe7BvyZDsecpvM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-28T23:36:30.872384Z
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I wonder how did these two (seemingly different) groups of people managed to get a hold on the OS/2 source code rights and why is it that in both cases it hasn’t resulted on any open sourcing :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #AP2dTnEMUzAV1MTofo by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-28T23:37:05.479768Z
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I wonder how did these two (seemingly different) groups of people manage to get a hold on the OS/2 source code rights and why is it that in both cases it hasn’t resulted on any open sourcing
(DIR) Post #AP2dUU3XH73fqEkHGi by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-28T23:37:13.029208Z
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I wonder how did these two (seemingly different) groups of people manage to get a hold on the OS/2 source code rights and why is it that in both cases it hasn’t resulted on any open sourcing :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #AP2fLGhdkhLBjIEmjA by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-28T23:57:55.741932Z
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also I didn’t get Inside Taligent Technology (yet)but I did get thesehttps://archive.org/details/thepowerofframeworks https://archive.org/details/taligentsguideto0000unse https://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/95/HPL-95-106.pdf https://archive.org/details/IBMTaligent (there’s more than 1 PDF in here)
(DIR) Post #AP2fMbZLep1cjbzppI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-28T23:58:12.145523Z
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also I didn't get Inside Taligent Technology (yet)but I *did* get thesehttps://archive.org/details/thepowerofframeworkshttps://archive.org/details/taligentsguideto0000unsehttps://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/95/HPL-95-106.pdfhttps://archive.org/details/IBMTaligent (there's more than 1 PDF in here)
(DIR) Post #AP2fY6ljztaegWHIdE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T00:00:16.008899Z
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I also wonder what happened with CommonPoint, since it should have been released for AIX and OS/2 but I can’t find either one atm…
(DIR) Post #AP3qIvg0FZcAalWEFs by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T13:35:27.362243Z
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back to this thread after yawningthe very first thing I noticed in the very first page of the very first book
(DIR) Post #AP3qMLSspH5RRT0kEq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T13:36:07.254894Z
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SO THERE WAS A WINDOWS VERSION AND YOU COULD JUST GRAB IT IN A CD LIKE THAT?????????????WHERE THE HELL IS THE ISO
(DIR) Post #AP3s582vf9PMoIn0Vc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T13:55:17.807569Z
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OHMYGOSH THE VP OF TALIGENT WAS ALSO THE GUY WHO MADE THESE https://www.wildcrest.com/Potel/Portfolio/RayTracedImages/
(DIR) Post #AP3sDSLC5kcI4NIscK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T13:56:54.875022Z
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for context: they were made on the Macintosh II and were used as its promo material
(DIR) Post #AP3sL3kJQ1ZK6fg5ey by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T13:58:16.100302Z
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(if CRTs antialiased pixels, analog cameras and ink did that to colors as well :blobcatderpy: )
(DIR) Post #AP3sXs1SJl3xVlnzcG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T14:00:34.169290Z
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this guy is wild https://www.wildcrest.com/Consulting/MikePotelCV.pdf
(DIR) Post #AP4GY7C8J0PvT1RuBU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T18:29:31.962912Z
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mixing the OS/2 and Taligent threads was the right call :blobcatsip: https://ia800701.us.archive.org/6/items/Readme_20181018/OS2DevMag-V5N3.pdf
(DIR) Post #AP4PMFqHEBY2Ooe4hc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T20:08:04.773749Z
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…not sure if I should go for OS/2 Warp 3 for PowerPC or OS/2 Warp 4 :blobcatthink:
(DIR) Post #AP4Pu5xaTXzTb2CXNA by chjara@snowdin.town
2022-10-29T20:09:21.601407Z
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@xerz there was OS/2 for PPC? i was under the impression it was a very x86 OS
(DIR) Post #AP4Pu6N6wePIsC8v9k by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T20:14:21.651990Z
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@chjara the idea was to make it the default OS for PowerPC (and PowerPC the main PC platform), and if you look above you’ll see that the PPC version was a special OS/2 with a microkernel that was supposed to run every other OS out there on top :blobcatsip:
(DIR) Post #AP4eKtSyQxYk1aYRvs by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-29T22:55:56.188059Z
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OK due to Circumstances™®© I will have to do OS/2 another day, but rest assured it will happen :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #AP6XJGOltHZpCnmhX6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T20:46:44.398688Z
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TalDE/cpProfessional really is nowhere to be seen hmmmmmmm
(DIR) Post #AP6gTpMTeYGk7mp7WS by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T22:29:26.872288Z
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:blobcateyes: https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/workload-automation/9.4.0?topic=SSGSPN_9.4.0/com.ibm.tivoli.itws.doc_9.4/common/notices_IWS_Integration_Workbench_9403.htm
(DIR) Post #AP6hx4OsuyU97QSQAC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T22:45:58.060808Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
oh this was such an Apple thing
(DIR) Post #AP6kfPixCL1Nu37Jxo by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:16:25.709975Z
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So I just checked back and apparently OS/2 for PPC cannot be emulated on QEMU yet, so it’s gotta be Warp 4 for now :os2:
(DIR) Post #AP6lUSfA1zZhmogTxo by reinouts@mastodon.green
2022-10-30T23:23:39Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@xerzI vaguely recall there were too many parts that were copyrighted by MS or other third parties.
(DIR) Post #AP6lVvWoCDxrbGTb4y by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:25:57.732568Z
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@reinouts ah, seems like a likely explanation :blobcatthink:
(DIR) Post #AP6lc5xyIgfbi87gS8 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:27:03.976646Z
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:blobcatrainbow:
(DIR) Post #AP6lebA3I1Qp2Ty1Im by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:27:31.728177Z
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this is the exact same setup I had for Rhapsody, I expect it to be 1:1 compatible
(DIR) Post #AP6mcF9CGW2C8i0YNc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:38:14.020573Z
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So basically, you need to have an empty drive, and when you’re on the Logical Volume Management Tool, you should select the CD drive (for whatever reason) and ask it to create a new volume (shameless screenshot copying from Kevin Hooke’s website)
(DIR) Post #AP6n6yuuex7WmLz3jc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:43:50.798497Z
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yep, that was pretty straightforward once I figured out the drive thingie ‒ it automatically reboots straight into the GUI installer
(DIR) Post #AP6nOA1SceA894EpIe by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:46:56.037154Z
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:blobcatthinkingglare:
(DIR) Post #AP6nZ1RGsPh2i0URSy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:48:54.639111Z
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OS/2 takes ~100MB for a full install, decent chunk for the time but very doable
(DIR) Post #AP6nx5tBywY1Sf1o80 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:53:15.959766Z
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(DIR) Post #AP6oLyg5vjtWKrldR2 by kadse@chaos.social
2022-10-30T23:56:02Z
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@xerz but which department
(DIR) Post #AP6oLz2mZO2hTENknY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-30T23:57:42.946645Z
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@kadse the one before the arrival
(DIR) Post #AP6pZsIOYX9yY8s9qq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T00:11:24.269477Z
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NE2000 drivers do not come included with OS/2, odd considering every other popular network card from the time IS listed… but you can just create a floppy image that contains the drivers like this:mkfs.msdos -C /tmp/OS2NET.img 1440DRIVE="$(udisksctl loop-setup --file /tmp/OS2NET.img | cut -d' ' -f5 | head -c-2)"MOUNT="$(udisksctl info -b $DRIVE | grep MountPoints | cut -d' ' -f13)"curl http://www.os2site.com/sw/drivers/network/warpnet.zip | bsdtar -xvf- -C "$MOUNT"udisksctl unmount -b "$DRIVE"
(DIR) Post #AP6pnNowerWm5TXTI8 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T00:13:55.134435Z
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(ngl I wish Udisks had a script-friendly UI, the alternative is calling Dbus from a script and hmmmmmmmph)
(DIR) Post #AP6pyOtV0VzsbNvFiK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T00:15:55.027901Z
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The installer is remarkably boring
(DIR) Post #AP6q7dVu1QaYY8HzzE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T00:17:34.090697Z
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weird acronym but OK
(DIR) Post #AP6qQzKN8sNths7jcG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T00:21:04.871004Z
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If you get this error: you installed the wrong video drivers
(DIR) Post #AP6rccbZY9aOfAHQhs by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T00:34:21.554678Z
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If you wonder how to address that: it tells you on the installer (I think)
(DIR) Post #AP6reuXDrGTqqnKxdo by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T00:34:48.850565Z
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also: Scitech Display Doctor is included lmao
(DIR) Post #AP7rNLPZO4ca9VLDF2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:06:08.534875Z
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Update: tried to change a few things about how I install OS/2:Disabled serial supportNo networking during system installDisplay settings left as pure VGA..it always refuses to boot…?
(DIR) Post #AP7rOKHB5t9av8ss88 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:06:31.534082Z
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Update: tried to change a few things about how I install OS/2:Disabled serial supportNo networking during system installDisplay settings left as pure VGA…it always refuses to boot…?
(DIR) Post #AP7rtoqRURCqhmOb6O by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:12:11.142406Z
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I edited out the COM line using TEDIT but, if it is a display issue, I have no idea how to address it
(DIR) Post #AP7tA3nfkoMzfxPNlx by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:26:14.685060Z
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oit’s the sound card…had to find out using Alt-F2 (if you use GNOME you might have to go to settings to disable the “Show the run command prompt” hotkey)
(DIR) Post #AP7tYm170bPLlHTkPo by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:30:47.607360Z
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also extremely quick tutorial on using TEDITPress Insert and EscMake whatever changes you pleasePress F2 followed by F3
(DIR) Post #AP7tnWHhmdlPJQGuAq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:33:28.252063Z
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…aaaaaaaaaaaaaand it’s still brokenhuh
(DIR) Post #AP7uX7epg718FnpnCy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:41:39.704415Z
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did the most barebones, vanilla and default of setups possibleit worked
(DIR) Post #AP7uYef8S6hsuFhsMy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:42:00.660858Z
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I have no idea which setting did it, but ok…
(DIR) Post #AP7usIZaI3ysBkTdom by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:45:32.852769Z
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that’s an OS of the 2 kind
(DIR) Post #AP7uuoFRUgYt0SFl56 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:46:00.703435Z
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…interesting :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #AP7v0fkrz4OAP2kTxo by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:47:04.064429Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
First sign that this is based around OOP concepts
(DIR) Post #AP7vEm0hWWMrrEsSyu by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:49:34.134455Z
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woah guys, lookit’s the World Wide Web :blobcatsurprised:
(DIR) Post #AP7vKq75BKswJuks88 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:50:42.726579Z
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this is probably the first HTML-based installer of all time
(DIR) Post #AP7vZXOd3NDkc8yFSS by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:53:21.310001Z
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yes it’s real(also isn’t that Java internationalization class a port of Taligent’s…?)
(DIR) Post #AP7vuY1zt6KyfHP4aG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:57:09.606011Z
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aaaaaaaaand the same installer but for Java 1.1 frozenice
(DIR) Post #AP7vxwsjwxIybfh9wu by reinouts@mastodon.green
2022-10-31T12:54:15Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@xerz The nice thing about IBM WebExplorer was that it's multi-threaded so could handle multiple HTTP requests in parallel. However, it never gained supports for frames - a must-have, at the time.
(DIR) Post #AP7w7yO5CuMcAi8SWG by lastcelebration@fosstodon.org
2022-10-31T12:48:33Z
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@xerz that looks so cool
(DIR) Post #AP7w7yxB6QR7vYYUDo by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T12:59:34.750367Z
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@lastcelebration iknorite :blobcatuwu:it even has a soul, surprising for IBM to have greenlit :blobcatsweats:
(DIR) Post #AP7wnHcqaKsJi7juaW by hugot@mstdn.social
2022-10-31T12:53:28Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz electron before it was cool
(DIR) Post #AP7wo01rUh1pQRmVge by bandie@chaos.social
2022-10-31T13:00:14Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz so many possibilities!
(DIR) Post #AP7wrPXN6ybdPH99ay by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T13:07:48.742016Z
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@bandie I can even nom you, on-line! :blobcatnom:
(DIR) Post #AP7xMonfEdVmjck9nk by bandie@chaos.social
2022-10-31T13:08:52Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz Finally! <333
(DIR) Post #AP7xN6FaM4wmr8wCBM by tromino@snug.moe
2022-10-31T13:08:38.848Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz@fedi.xerz.one @bandie@chaos.social :blobcatnomrevenge:
(DIR) Post #AP7xNMHElhm8Ytpjyi by bandie@chaos.social
2022-10-31T13:09:52Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@tromino @xerz :breadnommed:
(DIR) Post #AP7yF45KccsbmHsFk0 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T13:23:15.136998Z
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ok apparently it simply took a while before asking me if I wanted to overwrite a newer version of the Java 1.1 JRE :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #AP7znPF6Z4kXCHNtjc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T13:40:33.118615Z
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there you go, OS/2 Warp 4.52
(DIR) Post #AP816pjSOwSgoEPPsm by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T13:55:24.373084Z
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Hmm, there seem to be no drivers for the Diamond Stealth III, I might have to downgrade it…
(DIR) Post #AP817GwVEXwLCViiSu by reinouts@mastodon.green
2022-10-31T13:54:10Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@xerz Now you can go run your BBS in the background and still get work done.
(DIR) Post #AP8H4O3zttB1gRs7gu by yuki2501@hackers.town
2022-10-31T15:49:49Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz Ahhhh the 32bit OS wars... ☺️ that was a fun time.
(DIR) Post #AP8H4piL60UPRNxDou by niconiconi@mk.absturztau.be
2022-10-31T16:40:57.290Z
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@yuki2501@hackers.town @xerz@fedi.xerz.one It was a messy time in history, I still can't wrap my head around it.
(DIR) Post #AP8H8ENjq2NooawFVI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T16:54:57.004614Z
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@yuki2501 ye, and I’m on a quest to figure it all out :blobcatpeekaboo:
(DIR) Post #AP8JcboxSO4q6cHdDc by lunarogue@tech.lgbt
2022-10-31T17:18:56Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@xerz love this. my most recent similar attempt:
(DIR) Post #AP8JhlN1NbrvAdfq6K by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T17:23:46.827061Z
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@lunarogue ah QNX, the boring but reloable microkernel choice of the 90s, that's on my list as well :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #AP8JmelzKssS9ogYaG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T17:24:20.749163Z
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@lunarogue ah QNX, the boring but reliable microkernel choice of the 90s, that's on my list as well :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #AP8Liynh8EqN1OrFx2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T17:46:18.064020Z
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Comdex '94 is one of the Comdex of all time https://youtube.com/watch?v=TiPMIDRWKwQInteresting to see how much protagonism OS/2 got, particularly for PowerPC, but absolutely no direct or indirect mention of Workplace OS or Taligent as Windows 95 on Intel is already presumed to be the marketshare winner even before release
(DIR) Post #AP8MjjIMMkk7Az7foe by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T17:57:40.074970Z
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And yes, Taligent's TalOS was in fact shown off alongside a couple of third party apps in that very event https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/so/1995/02/s2103.pdf
(DIR) Post #AP8N8AccPw8OsXFkEC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T18:02:09.247825Z
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Worth noting that Computex '94 also featured another Apple spinoff, General Magic, as shown off on the Sony Magic Link – mobility was a thing that year :blobcateyes: Also they said Windows 95 was not based on DOS lol
(DIR) Post #AP8NRSczhB4qE2cvrM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T18:05:38.613184Z
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…the fools thought Windows 95 was a tablet OS…
(DIR) Post #AP8Nto1Xjth0gycqYa by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T18:10:45.426789Z
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(Villa Crespo Software's Go Figure also looks like ideas I'm considering, isn't that a CAS?)
(DIR) Post #AP8SAfyrITD6UBfaJk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T18:58:26.341705Z
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Back to OS/2 :os2: :blobcatreach: Oddly enough, if you have to change your hardware configuration, you either have to insert back your OS/2 CD or open either “Selective Install” or “Device Driver Install” from the “System Setup” folderhuh
(DIR) Post #AP8SnXpdWloUVTtFXE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T19:05:37.093314Z
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number big :blobcatbusiness:
(DIR) Post #AP8TRo5uU1uUWkhUQq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T19:12:53.657046Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Interesting that I can immediately tell a quality improvement over Windows because of something as simple as relative icon positioning. Text also scales up instead of preserving the original size, which is something Windows cannot even do flawlessly to this day.
(DIR) Post #AP8TuJuhm1ShJz3VQW by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T19:18:04.903106Z
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I think OS/2 was the only one which did this? X and Motif sure didn’t scale up, neither did Mac OS, GEM, PC/GEOS, AmigaOS Intuition, NeXTSTEP, Java AWT or any Windows toolkit I’m aware of. Maybe TalOS, but I sure cannot check that currently… :blobcatsadreach:
(DIR) Post #AP8UmKFMkbJNzaTHRw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T19:27:50.215798Z
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There’s no OpenDocWhere’s OpenDoc :blobcatfluffangry:
(DIR) Post #AP8WrrurCFNdlueJbU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T19:51:15.906343Z
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yeahhhhhh I’m pretty sure the Sound Blaster 16 PnP won’t work, so gotta use the og instead
(DIR) Post #AP8XRB7zl7YTUYdDUW by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T19:57:36.189214Z
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aaaaand yup, the regular Sound Blaster 16 works :blobcatrainbow:
(DIR) Post #AP8XkU2jenaHesNPyi by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:01:05.804249Z
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everything is already working except for OpenGL, so I guess if I want either that or OpenDoc I’ll take care of it laterfor now tho, the reason I’m playing around with OS/2
(DIR) Post #AP8YnVhY32NdclTQjg by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:12:50.055895Z
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At first sight, OS/2 looks pretty boring. Just a Windows 95 copycat. However, there’s subtle things going on which can wrap your head around. For instance, here’s the Hardware Manager (the equivalent of NT’s Device Manager) opened up from both the file manager and the start menu… notice something odd?
(DIR) Post #AP8ZM84nsQ68UKrIvI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:19:07.729709Z
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In fact, while trying to get there, you might have noticed something on the “OS/2 System” window as well. You would think it’s a “My Computer” equivalent, but it’s not ‒ to start with, the drives are in subfolder conveniently called “Drives”. But also, you might notice there’s an icon called “WarpCenter” that looks like it’s already open. Double clicking… makes the desktop flash, and that’s it. Right click it or hold Alt while (left) clicking tho, and you have the desktop settings :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #AP8aYkpXiUAo6uIx1c by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:32:33.680802Z
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Obviously, what’s going on is obvious: OS/2 treats all these things as OOP objects! Even if at a lower level they’re all PCI devices, HPFS files or some conventional data type on RAM, you can manipulate them as objects and they all work the same way! So, for instance, you could pick up a picture and drag it into your desktop as a shadow :blobcatsurprised:
(DIR) Post #AP8bEZbhpmovSsm0xM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:40:09.166292Z
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…wait, I just created a shortcut, right? That’s all I’m getting out of it?Nope! Notice, for instance, the “Convert to” dialog, which is specific to the filetype. The filetype, btw, is NOT determined by extension nor magic bytes. In fact, you can change it to whatever you feel like, even multiple filetypes at once!!! :blobcatsip: And I mean, just imagine any other desktop of the time showing a thumbnail in the file manager…
(DIR) Post #AP8bYtIoJkNML9ciR6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:43:50.072904Z
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(yay OpenDoc found :blobcatrainbow: )
(DIR) Post #AP8buQWS09WJS3GxXc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:47:43.180996Z
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At this point, the OOP nature of the desktop becomes unavoidable and clear: there’s also a “Become” type… which lets you choose which “Workplace Shell” class it is! It’s literally casting a SOM class!
(DIR) Post #AP8bxNKOKpbqPe2PeS by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:48:17.204121Z
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At this point, the OOP nature of the desktop becomes unavoidable and clear: there’s also a “Become” tab… which lets you choose which “Workplace Shell” class it is! It’s literally casting a SOM class!
(DIR) Post #AP8cysYhnxM7W80w3U by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T20:59:43.626088Z
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The desktop, indeed, is all made of SOM objects! You can see the explanation right here :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #AP8e83I2KsjUtZyNwe by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T21:12:32.784850Z
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Oh right, what’s a SOM?Here’s the explanation IBM gave to devs on their docs:“Despite its promise, penetration of object-oriented technology to major commercial software products has progressed slowly because of certain obstacles.“ “The first obstacle that developers must confront is the choice of an object-oriented programming language.“ “The second obstacle […] is that, because different object-oriented languages and toolkits embrace incompatible models of what objects are and how they work, software developed using a particular language or toolkit is naturally limited“ “The System Object Model (SOM) is IBM’s solution to these problems.“
(DIR) Post #AP8eItP1R9bxPqPS88 by millirem@social.linux.pizza
2022-10-31T21:08:33Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz I once had to maintain a behemoth Tadiran PBX which had an OS2 Warp head unit. I can specifically remember a moment of pure terror doing a system upgrade, not having the system disk it requested and then getting a quick, panic filled education in how to make an XDF floppy on my Red Hat box.
(DIR) Post #AP8eNT14y3Ct1pOLEu by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T21:15:25.271528Z
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mucho texto, so tl;dr: SOM acted as an universal language for objects to speak with.So basically, it’s IBM’s COM :blobcatdab:
(DIR) Post #AP8eTHHVVkFmN1qXpI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T21:16:28.108086Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Oh right, what’s a SOM?Here’s the explanation IBM gave to devs on their docs:“Despite its promise, penetration of object-oriented technology to major commercial software products has progressed slowly because of certain obstacles.““The first obstacle that developers must confront is the choice of an object-oriented programming language.““The second obstacle […] is that, because different object-oriented languages and toolkits embrace incompatible models of what objects are and how they work, software developed using a particular language or toolkit is naturally limited““The System Object Model (SOM) is IBM’s solution to these problems.“
(DIR) Post #AP8eTbzUVvJubEZxA0 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T21:16:31.723528Z
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mucho texto, so tl;dr: SOM acted as an universal language for objects to speak with.So basically, it’s IBM’s COM :blobcatdab:
(DIR) Post #AP8fJTcItRfBgcSqVk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T21:25:53.237471Z
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@millirem oh wow, this is the first time I hear of someone who had to deal with a PBX as their job! I definitely cannot imagine the pressure to get done with it as quickly as possible :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #AP8fmbHVTY7Zr6cjpY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T21:31:06.019323Z
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Think about that tho: SOM means you can create your own objects however you want. Workplace Shell is made of SOM objects.Could it be :blobcatthinkOwO:
(DIR) Post #AP8g139gdcFmMJr92O by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T21:33:46.030666Z
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Here’s where all the classes are listed
(DIR) Post #AP8gxvIPVBzv4M0eNk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T21:44:16.973987Z
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And here’s what you can do with it https://archive.org/details/StardockObjectDesktop2.0
(DIR) Post #AP8lgju16orua5E1PE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T22:37:07.849089Z
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Installing is pretty easy, BUT you might stumble upon this issue! I sure have :blobcatderpy: https://www.stardock.com/support_old/os2/od/odbug20/sec1.htm#question2
(DIR) Post #AP8psXUnSjmpOTJKRk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:24:11.947375Z
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So just to compare, how much can you do on a vanilla OS/2 Warp system if you’re not a developer? Not a whole lot, but you can still get quite far. You might need to learn a thing or two about CONFIG.SYS in the process tho (see https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/OS/2_Warp_4:_New_Workplace_Shell)Oh, and you can change every single icon in the system (but I don’t feel like it)
(DIR) Post #AP8q5xWfzfeLtEaZt2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:26:30.356957Z
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@thatonecalculator perha🅱s :blobcatsip:
(DIR) Post #AP8qL1QblflKKsvv6G by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:29:23.684240Z
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@thatonecalculator welp, the latest Firefox available is 45.9, so definitely likely https://github.com/bitwiseworks/mozilla-os2
(DIR) Post #AP8qQEgjtVaQuRxraS by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:30:21.927731Z
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Once again, even if it feels underwhelming: out of the box, it is STILL more customizable than any Windows ever has :blobcatdab:
(DIR) Post #AP8qi3NSgdjp2eRZS4 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:33:34.791535Z
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BTW: you can theme specific windows only, you’re welcome
(DIR) Post #AP8rQOlGXjBe6XitiC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:41:36.771061Z
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@thatonecalculator wow, people really REALLY want to keep this OS alive :blobcatsweats:
(DIR) Post #AP8rhiAXdfxlDenjZw by reinouts@mastodon.green
2022-10-31T20:44:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz@fedi.xerz.on You're gonna love templates!
(DIR) Post #AP8rmRJti8XgPWQqLA by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:45:35.976970Z
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@reinouts oh yes, I want to get into it later alongside compound documents themselves, but there’s a lot to talk about yet :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #AP8sOxPSqlu2wJP0YS by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:52:29.290618Z
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And now I got Object Desktop and it looks like: this
(DIR) Post #AP8sVrI9ziN1zbHDai by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-31T23:53:47.665519Z
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Immediately you can see virtual desktops, system monitors and system theme tweaks. Indeed, Object Desktop can modify the OS theme itself! But let’s keep going, shall we :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #AP8tnZOPNjone6CzS4 by sn0w@cofe.rocks
2022-11-01T00:08:08.931634Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@thatonecalculator @xerz *key aka the only way to truly experience what your PC going :hacker_w: :hacker_a: :hacker_r: :hacker_p: really means :kappa:
(DIR) Post #AP8uME9qKC47vEvCbY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T00:14:25.278294Z
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I have to say: this is extremely dense, there’s a lot to go through and it’s pretty late, so I guess I should leave it for next morning :blobcatsleep2:
(DIR) Post #AP8upGnRapGsVJIFEW by lucie@mas.to
2022-11-01T00:18:38Z
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@xerz This is where Next got its inspiration from or this is inspired from Next?
(DIR) Post #AP8upHG9s4EvwMjAzQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T00:19:41.686176Z
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@lucie If anything it’s inspired by
(DIR) Post #AP8w1SaNgc3sUsYlVo by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T00:33:05.544001Z
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I do have to say I have already found limitations tho: there’s no obvious way to e.g. create a toolbar shelf with the contents of a directory instead of “hardcoding” them one by one, neither WarpCenter nor Object Desktop’s Control Center allow you to customize what they contain (so no widgets), and color tweaking is awkward :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #AP9u2q7xdggD37ky0m by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T11:45:10.870909Z
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OK, so back to Object Desktop. First things first, what pops up the most, the Control Center. It does kinda look like KDE 1 or NeXT’s dock. You can customize your section choices in the “Sections” tab (iknorite) of the object’s properties, either right clicking on the app file icon or the bar itself (because OS/2 makes that universal for all objects). You can also enable a titlebar on the Options tab and drag it around to snap it at a different border, including the top and bottom edges.Also, I should look up Object Desktop’s docs, it MIGHT be possible to add custom widgets and I’m just not aware of it.
(DIR) Post #AP9uyXIxmLs5T5PlGy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T11:56:03.977495Z
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OK there’s at least one kind of widget you can add: folder objects. Those symlinks now look a bit more useful :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #AP9vLbyuYd6gdI2SBs by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T12:00:15.479030Z
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And in case it wasn’t obvious: you can move around the locations of the original items and the shadows will work just fine. Because it’s objecty and it uses an UID internally!
(DIR) Post #AP9xbQHk0mXitnVsxc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T12:25:26.807168Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Ye, I think I’m leaving this as my final desktop :blobcatfluffowo:
(DIR) Post #AP9y9gYW1a0LCthGzY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T12:31:41.639651Z
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Oh, you might have noticed. The file manager now looks more… Windowsy, doesn’t it? Yep, that’s because it’s all been replaced by Object Navigator!It’s definitely a powerful file manager for the time, particularly because it has integrated file preview beyond just thumbnails :blobcateyes: https://www.stardock.com/products/od20/info_od20.html
(DIR) Post #AP9zRvA4YjVhflWV60 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T12:46:06.940481Z
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(why don’t I have that preview yet? because the installer is buggy and it wouldn’t let me get it… yet)
(DIR) Post #APAD9aqijtZ4ozctkW by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T15:19:40.484048Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
oops ran out of space on my VM
(DIR) Post #APADIvWtDijXZ9njiy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T15:21:28.088814Z
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I expected this and it has an easy solution: duplicating the hard disk file :blobcatrainbow:
(DIR) Post #APADrulm2OQBLQRkYa by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T15:27:44.527218Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Computer doing computery things
(DIR) Post #APAEFynoh8ZknosRsm by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T15:32:08.436977Z
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Resizing will NOT leave you with a bootable system. This is expected, because volume information was lost, so you’ll need to run LVM from e.g. the installation CD or recovery floppies http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL1100H/vnewsf5.htm
(DIR) Post #APAETEK8IZFWhnJLjk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T15:34:26.908893Z
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and by “LVM” I mean the OS/2 one which is not the Linux one http://www.altsan.org/os2/toolkits/lvm/index.html
(DIR) Post #APAGdt37w5TZomZ9rV by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T15:58:47.728508Z
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so uh
(DIR) Post #APAHziZlemYHeyo6lM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:13:59.743027Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
wait that popup didn’t appear before???????
(DIR) Post #APAI12wdPZZB7e8Wn2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:14:16.611366Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I thought I wouldn’t exceed 1023 cylinders but uh, apparently I did…
(DIR) Post #APAIONiqKLJgDtoRge by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:18:28.633370Z
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all I can do is 1008 MB, still more than the 500 I started with tbh
(DIR) Post #APAIcThIuNOuoDoYd6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:20:59.048260Z
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once again tho, the volume information is broken, and this is expected
(DIR) Post #APAIoAld7GdxZaPkWm by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:23:09.031893Z
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…still cannot create a volume…
(DIR) Post #APAJ7v1ZMEfmXTHlJ2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:26:42.563798Z
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If I were doing this with physical hardware in the 90s I would be having soooooooooo much of a not goodgood time
(DIR) Post #APAJajw1fP2iXlR4GO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:31:50.540380Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
YES THANK YOU
(DIR) Post #APAJgbJecmdDYAHYzQ by battlepenguin@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-01T16:32:59Z
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@xerz wow .. I never actually used/tried OS/2 .. it had a much nicer partitioning tool than dos/windows.
(DIR) Post #APAJvhHCkIpKNcKp7Y by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:35:42.572565Z
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@battlepenguin and it had a GUI, at that! Really all that it was missing was resizing, and for that you had to buy PartitionMagic
(DIR) Post #APAK54V7lcBJ12Jdyq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T16:37:20.130200Z
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aaaaaaand it worked! :blobcatchristmasglowsticks:
(DIR) Post #APAK8JYGGX7aYyKUHA by iska@mk.starnix.network
2022-11-01T16:38:00.644Z
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@xerz@fedi.xerz.one working scalingNO WAY :_qv36njdy_:
(DIR) Post #APAKIFK2qRlYLGPpdg by battlepenguin@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-01T16:39:48Z
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@xerz I do remember using Partition Magic from back in the day!
(DIR) Post #APARUPfmt1Qzb9Kmye by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T18:00:13.742712Z
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wow that was easy, just tell it where the network card is (IRQ included) and that I have DHCP
(DIR) Post #APARe0XtAFeeYxDNlw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T18:02:05.117978Z
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@thatonecalculator wait do I save Chromium for later :blobcatthinkingglare:
(DIR) Post #APAShjdo3agLFMK9FQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T18:14:02.481967Z
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speed :ralseidrip:
(DIR) Post #APATRMsV1ONRy9xKPg by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T18:22:15.908460Z
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it’s funny how OS/2 has basically 0 support for package management so people have made their own https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/How_to_Install_Firefox_on_Warp_4.52
(DIR) Post #APAWo8GnndJzBbrzjU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T18:59:57.340555Z
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oh right, I’m probably going to need a Pentium 4 or something86box can’t get any better SSE than MMX…
(DIR) Post #APAWp8Z2BwkEO6sQl6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-01T19:00:12.228896Z
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oh right, for web browsing I’m probably going to need a Pentium 4 or something86box can’t get any better SIMD than MMX…
(DIR) Post #APCaFDPLUfYR7OOL8S by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T18:47:52.118653Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
ok so, hey back :blobcatsip:
(DIR) Post #APCaNnzZMGdQtnQmSO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T18:49:29.585249Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
how old is this?yes
(DIR) Post #APCaXUInQ4WYjB2bj6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T18:51:14.618541Z
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the 1.x era Mac OS scrollbars on a Windows 3.1 window on OS/2 💯
(DIR) Post #APCaqvPAsMcGHuIDSq by moon_baron@social.coop
2022-11-02T18:52:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz oh man the old macromedia logo hits hard
(DIR) Post #APCaslnvXg9X5gkasC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T18:55:06.134963Z
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@moon_baron it is SO 90s plssssss :blobcatheart:
(DIR) Post #APCbvf05OZH6oONbrE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T19:06:46.837461Z
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if this is true, then I want to see it in action :blobcatfluffevil: (worth noting no mention of Sun, as they opted for OPENSTEP, nor of TalOS, since this came out pretty late in Taligent history) (®)
(DIR) Post #APCc5BIwesvbbjk0AK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T19:08:32.504301Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
NOW THIS is the Good Stuff™®©patentpending
(DIR) Post #APCcBFx0IUNrkrNIo4 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T19:09:38.615015Z
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OK, I want to ask a question to the audience.Does anyone in the room know what are compound documents or Task Centered Computing™? :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #APCfKFjukda1ZKEYuu by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T19:44:43.929471Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
jeb bush please clap moment
(DIR) Post #APCiy90TVFLw8Ih2bw by adamasnemesis@social.adamasnemesis.com
2022-11-02T20:19:23Z
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@xerz Ooh...
(DIR) Post #APD0RKtS5NqMcLuiX2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T23:41:23.679704Z
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Since you all seem to not get what I’m getting into, I’m given no other choiceI’ll have to make a shitton of posts about OLE, SOM, OpenDoc, Taligent, compound documents and tasks, later to be condensed into a blogpoststarting tomorrow :blobcatfluffowo:
(DIR) Post #APEZ0dyshZSHYGQ9mC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T17:43:30.418576Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
ok so I’m trying to get things prepared and uhhhhhI have no idea why but OS/2 app installers keep freezing while opening up
(DIR) Post #APEZGPUuJoabGVv1pw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T17:46:22.208562Z
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nevermind I think it’s the display driver, I just reset it and they all work now
(DIR) Post #APEbSFkiZlRQQQ5ZkO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T18:10:52.136945Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
good installer
(DIR) Post #APEbX9KJtUxNwa4mo4 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T18:11:49.512628Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
(I like how the one video in the thread so far is much lighter than the static pictures)
(DIR) Post #APEbscc4Ch0er3cFl2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T18:15:41.602572Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
ok fedi what compiler should I use
(DIR) Post #APEbyKPCoN3w7gJyrI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T18:16:44.161066Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
(To quit is never an option :blobcatfluffevil:)
(DIR) Post #APEcNpKay3mFHDK7fc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T18:21:18.081949Z
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ngl I actually think VisualAge C++ is the most fitting herenot only it’s IBM, but uh… reasons :blobcatsip:
(DIR) Post #APEdITwd9eyFSC85Xk by Polychrome@poly.cybre.city
2022-11-03T18:31:35.415461Z
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@xerz I love the whole look of the system :ablobaww:
(DIR) Post #APEg5KyzSniDkyenc8 by Polychrome@poly.cybre.city
2022-11-03T19:02:49.112040Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz :q! :thonking:
(DIR) Post #APEhNs2VOkHFRlhbnM by Genstar@meow.social
2022-11-03T19:12:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz Yet it takes a lot to load (Tusky).
(DIR) Post #APEhNsRftAPUhpTi1g by Genstar@meow.social
2022-11-03T19:16:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz Is it broken?
(DIR) Post #APEhNstgD2oO6ga4g4 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T19:16:33.813274Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Genstar no, it’s AV1
(DIR) Post #APEhux8RTOh6o7FoIa by Genstar@meow.social
2022-11-03T19:18:23Z
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@xerz Is there a direct link? Because this instance doesn't seem to federate it well and I'm on mobile so I cannot Inspect mode rn.
(DIR) Post #APEhuxrSm0ht3kJlTM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T19:23:17.737233Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Genstar https://fedi.xerz.one/media/55c8ec1d64f90bd5c7ebb94077cb17885ca0d03a8af5b9ea8f383b439c82fa68.webm
(DIR) Post #APEi2UM4MS4trcDmsK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T19:24:42.920158Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Polychrome it pretty clean ye :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #APEkBp0H9xkgQ0bc9Y by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-03T19:48:41.522010Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
guess I’m doing Borlandand also VisualAge C++ lol
(DIR) Post #APGTmFtlKfofLtGYzY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T15:54:18.165389Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
oh nvm the part of Object Desktop that failed install was Object Advisor, am: dumbs
(DIR) Post #APGTwwpmYLZjPXVFKq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T15:56:15.063053Z
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don’t worry, it’s just the one thing Stardock wanted you to pay the most for https://www.stardock.com/products/od20/info_od20.html
(DIR) Post #APGULsMqIV24nTqxrk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T16:00:45.051200Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
(it’s just HTML popups btw)
(DIR) Post #APGm8g36aFsY0ETenA by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T19:20:04.291909Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Playing around with hardware configs, so far so good :blobcatfluffowo:
(DIR) Post #APGnCWI8u5MOqwuIxE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T19:31:56.790422Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
waiting…
(DIR) Post #APGnrh7nWz28KAham8 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T19:39:17.252358Z
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(I feel like I should have installed SOM 2 and not SOM 3, because I’m getting crashes from SOMRAS.DLL constantly)
(DIR) Post #APGpvSjbAwn2lCJ7uC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T20:02:27.060744Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
(yeah it was meant for SOM 2.1, not 3.0)
(DIR) Post #APGpwtSJJQqLvLu4oa by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T20:02:46.228911Z
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(yeah OpenDoc was meant for SOM 2.1, not 3.0, and it overwrites it…)
(DIR) Post #APGsPpo89eKsur2OG0 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T20:30:12.151443Z
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Worth mentioning that I’m doing A LOT of fooling around with OS/2 and it has yet to break (in a way which I didn’t expect) other than the first setup… which is funny considering its reputation for virtualization, but it does show how solid it was for its time :blobcatuwu: It helps that the CONFIG.SYS file acts as a sort of declaration for all the system components required to get the desktop to work, beat Nix by a couple decades haha yes :blobcatdab:
(DIR) Post #APGudbPgfWI4EfIU5I by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T20:55:13.924171Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
wow, IBM still hosts Club OpenDoc to this day ftp://service.software.ibm.com/publications/clubod
(DIR) Post #APGyuaFSeWw1MVrnYu by wilmhit@social.handholding.io
2022-11-04T21:43:12.266703Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz tcc
(DIR) Post #APGyymiWEifLBvSfx2 by wilmhit@social.handholding.io
2022-11-04T21:43:57.394065Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz oh nevermind you're compiling cpp
(DIR) Post #APH4SLkvXcus1zVN5s by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T22:45:14.146412Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Don’t worry, I’ll take care of Borland later maybe
(DIR) Post #APH4uRukEpprEtUoFM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T22:50:20.396212Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
good job breaking your own software on your own laptops, IBM :blobcatderpy: (also yup, that confirms OS/2’s S3 implementation is broken)
(DIR) Post #APH5LCz1rK0kkbG9ke by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T22:55:13.464029Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
oh hey there, another HTML installer!
(DIR) Post #APH5U2FF9b003I3KT2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T22:56:47.956958Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
. . . o
(DIR) Post #APH5VfK1LrphXM44R6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T22:57:07.580554Z
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imagine having to buy two hard disk drives because the IDE didn’t fit on your main drive…
(DIR) Post #APH5XCUxUK1simueAq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T22:57:24.264059Z
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imagine having a second hard disk because the IDE didn’t fit on your main drive…
(DIR) Post #APH5ddP4MvOhu4E4tE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T22:58:33.536946Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I mean, I do have enough space, but I want to include the Open Class source code…
(DIR) Post #APH9VJxx9Uqx7SplLc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T23:41:50.370204Z
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…I forgot I already had the OS/2 Toolkit…
(DIR) Post #APH9WY5M8rvtCQskRE by crashglasshouses@kolektiva.social
2022-11-04T23:41:12Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz for a company which has produced both hardware and software, i hope they break their own stuff. it would just be nice if they resolved everything they broke. :queercat_enby:
(DIR) Post #APH9X4va2Eil3fYuHY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T23:42:12.230142Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crashglasshouses welp :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #APH9jUM5K1qfOYsQrI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T23:44:26.151117Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
this feels like tech brutalism (but better)
(DIR) Post #APH9m9Zb2thFoFT3KK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-04T23:44:55.728950Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
(in the end I’m putting the samples on a new drive still, because I needed 20MB more of space…..)
(DIR) Post #APHGFkGMJRrHiuxlgm by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T00:57:21.942635Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
it wasn’t working but all I needed to do was reboot…it’s become too late tho x3
(DIR) Post #APHGbrqEoeBNbDIHSK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T01:01:29.348119Z
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I’ll just leave you with a sneak peek :blobcatpeekaboo:
(DIR) Post #APHHnPiRJRPtnWiRO4 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T01:14:44.607711Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
(aaaaaaaaand I ran out of HDD space)
(DIR) Post #APIG72utmbks84jl7w by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T12:30:36.980081Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
ok so smol update: I’m having a bit of an issue with VisualAge and I cannot look it up online, any suggestions?
(DIR) Post #APIGU1cOmCfOlM2bdA by efi@chitter.xyz
2022-11-05T12:32:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz UI crimes
(DIR) Post #APIGU1zROX69uop0Xw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T12:34:45.268938Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@efi at least IBM didn’t get away with them for too long :blobcatshrug:
(DIR) Post #APIGycLInj9hLfdEqu by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T12:40:16.125971Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
people definitely needed to patch these things, although I’m not sure any of this addresses my specific issuehttps://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php?topic=1841.0 https://www.os2site.com/sw/upgrades/patches/index.html
(DIR) Post #APII0eapVMTqrTQhEG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T12:51:51.981606Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
from what I’m reading the issue is most likely to do with either multithreading or SMP… which is not really helping, since the emulated CPU is a Pentium MMX and I have no idea how to fix the former
(DIR) Post #APIIJHJ2JFWo8kzILg by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T12:55:15.071173Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
if it is this then lmao help https://github.com/bitwiseworks/mozilla-os2/issues/247#issuecomment-346265353
(DIR) Post #APIN7K1wr0l2sy74k4 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T13:49:05.130355Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
art
(DIR) Post #APIPPCmWk8RhWbYTXE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T14:14:39.445375Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
update on compiling: increasing RAM and setting VIRTUALADDRESSLIMIT do not work…….
(DIR) Post #APIQkClk5LTtWMlVku by Luci@mastodonperu.xyz
2022-11-05T14:23:58Z
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@xerz hago un icon pack pixel art con paleta limitada de colores?
(DIR) Post #APIQkDUPPHD5ktfBNQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T14:29:39.942551Z
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@Luci si te atreves :blobcatsip:
(DIR) Post #APIQtE0cqOXByP1n3w by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T14:31:23.466966Z
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welp at least I can try to see if I get OpenGL to work
(DIR) Post #APIRCcHWp6GKkuBGHw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T14:34:48.942189Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
woah fast
(DIR) Post #APIRdynlCdmKQ0IwzY by Polychrome@poly.cybre.city
2022-11-05T14:39:50.118568Z
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@xerz looks like a 28800 baud modem?
(DIR) Post #APIRoMwYIbSsBlN46a by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T14:41:41.913545Z
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@Polychrome it’s a NE2000 :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #APIRrIfUeNxbnYn0me by Polychrome@poly.cybre.city
2022-11-05T14:42:14.468591Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz :blobcatshrug:
(DIR) Post #APITrPkWWTDbfVKBSS by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T15:04:36.718263Z
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OK, that ZIP worked, the Diamond Stealth 3D 3000 was detected at first try… however it does not support the resolutions the other drivers (generic GRADD and SciTech Display Doctor) do, even after running the DDC Display Setup (located at OS/2’s System Setup folder)… and yet no OpenGL
(DIR) Post #APITvvTAWvhvClMHHU by snowyfox@deadinsi.de
2022-11-05T15:02:11Z
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@xerz The designer of the IDE UI strikes me as very inexperienced...
(DIR) Post #APITvvtOxOguW7dEAa by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T15:05:29.563731Z
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@snowyfox to me it just looks like a severe, chronic case of late 90s graphic design :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #APIWoodFquqxpoNRJo by marcel@waldvogel.family
2022-11-05T15:31:45Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz Still, some of the concepts were great, such as Undo at the "OS" level…
(DIR) Post #APIX0zw9eBZyN41h68 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T15:40:00.598082Z
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@marcel that and compound documents and distributed computing and object filesystems with indexed querying and full internationalization and collaborative editing and…
(DIR) Post #APIY7SZaBypQsL76lk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T15:52:23.120955Z
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Apparently I forgot to install The New Universal OS/2 Installer™®© https://www.os2site.com/sw/util/installers/old/warpin-1-0-21.zip
(DIR) Post #APIYCilZPg7YXvEHiK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T15:53:21.372684Z
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(I have definitely noticed that at least the SOMobjects and OpenDoc uninstallers do NOT clean up some files nor CONFIG.SYS, so this was definitely needed at the time!)
(DIR) Post #APIYeq4zoeJtKuiuTw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T15:58:24.853733Z
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The fact that (once again) OS/2 stuff is maintained to this day is :blobcatsurprised:
(DIR) Post #APIYpklZuW362jqShs by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:00:23.796878Z
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First time I had to come and do this
(DIR) Post #APIZ8n4rXgbsiFwWae by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:03:49.933213Z
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OK so apparently I just didn’t have OpenGL at all… yet when I do install it, I end up breaking GLUT instead :blobcatthinkingglare:
(DIR) Post #APIZjmQ4x12dO4VLVY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:10:28.318241Z
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…o“Hardware acceleration for OpenGL on OS/2 doesn’t really exist right now. IBM has developed it, including drivers for the Omnicomp 3Demon SX88 adapter, but it seems you need a $25,000 OpenGL source license from silicon graphics to get access to it. And no graphics card vendors are currently making drivers for OpenGL on OS/2. Scitech has stated unofficially that they will be bringing hardware accelerated OpenGL to Windows, Linux and OS/2 pretty much simultaneously, but with them focusing on some great new 2D drivers for OS/2, that seems to be quite a ways off yet.“so it never happened?http://www.os2ezine.com/v4n6/gameprog.htm
(DIR) Post #APIaFYCNMMcUY3FDea by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:16:15.398246Z
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o wait, they DID make a port of Mesa 6 that supports OpenGL 1.5… is this what I want then? https://en.ecomstation.ru/projects/developer/?action=opengl
(DIR) Post #APIaSOoVZ25jCpCubQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:18:35.428791Z
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hmm, everything other than OpenGL 1.0 is deemed as unstable, shame
(DIR) Post #APIbKawqfFDSTgx15U by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:28:20.892741Z
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(also I could also consider the ATI Mach64, since it’s compatible with both OS/2 and Rhapsody as well… it actually might even be the better performer https://vintage3d.org/cards.php)
(DIR) Post #APIbLGPIWNKn3nZoci by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:28:30.821341Z
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(also I could consider the ATI Mach64, since it’s compatible with both OS/2 and Rhapsody as well… it actually might even be the better performer https://vintage3d.org/cards.php)
(DIR) Post #APIcx7BXM9uXPvkkCW by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:46:31.693792Z
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feeling like reinstalling to make sure I didn’t mess up anything without noticing
(DIR) Post #APIdFQQgXrQQJaZMtE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:49:51.721157Z
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gonna keep the S3 ViRGE/VX tho since I don’t expect GPU acceleration in OS/2 anymore and it’s the only one which supports 1600x1200 (the ATI seems to be limited to 1280x1024)
(DIR) Post #APIdUHqkj4WE38qgt6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T16:52:32.698956Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
also switching to the Pentium II Overdrive (since I missed it out last time but it’s a Pentium Pro with much better clocks and MMX)
(DIR) Post #APIeDs9ab0kJfvOday by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T17:00:42.351700Z
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> comparing the Asus P/I-P65UP5, the Gigabyte GA-686NX, the Intel VS440FX and the Micronics M6Mi…
(DIR) Post #APIefFRK7wG9iLkGLA by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T17:05:43.932126Z
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ok the GA-686NX wins, it’s ATX, it supports 512 MB of RAM, plenty of PCI, two PS/2 ports, two USB ports and Award BIOS :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #APIerFer8p9jrlnZj6 by snowyfox@deadinsi.de
2022-11-05T17:07:04Z
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@xerz I haven't read the thread yet but, if it's a DOS call error, maybe the underlying DOS is? The rest of the system and the apps are working right? If it's just this dev sample you can run it in debug mode to see which line faulted...
(DIR) Post #APIerG5nWehtDKP5ii by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T17:07:53.269672Z
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@snowyfox there’s no “underlying DOS” in the sense that this is no Windows and it’s emulating it, it’s OS/2, and what’s breaking is the compiler itself…
(DIR) Post #APIevbabXiBV2lszaK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T17:08:41.804129Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
new pc who dis
(DIR) Post #APIhvtF0DLiFeSbpSK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T17:42:19.464983Z
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Rhapsody DR2: boots :blobcatfakeverified: OS/2 Warp 4: nope, it almost boots but then either 86box crashes or the system reboots :blobcatsadreach:
(DIR) Post #APIhyOYAmK95KnlpM8 by thor@berserker.town
2022-11-05T17:09:42Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz damn, now i miss having a CD-ROM drive and having it detected in the BIOS. memories...
(DIR) Post #APIiXeEwR5e48BaKsC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T17:49:07.942939Z
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this CPU seems like a buggy one, sad https://github.com/86Box/86Box/issues/1192
(DIR) Post #APIjiOXfF0NuaH1yCW by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T18:02:13.739854Z
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o it’s actually the motherboardGigabyte first the Realtek network cards, then the exploding PSUs and now THIS!? :blobcatsadreach:
(DIR) Post #APIjk5Z2lqsSIxU3Qe by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T18:02:26.931194Z
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o it’s actually the motherboardGigabyte… first the Realtek network cards, then the exploding PSUs and now THIS!? :blobcatsadreach:
(DIR) Post #APIkONEsTZ0whnGDo0 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T18:09:50.735192Z
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wow this feels like almost as much of an upgrade as when I did Core 2 Duo E7000 => 5900X
(DIR) Post #APIkQn0Bf0OHBfXbjU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T18:10:21.411372Z
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wow this feels like almost as much of an upgrade as when I did Core 2 Duo E7000 ⇒ Ryzen 5900X :blobcatmelt:💗
(DIR) Post #APIkuHoOBoiH8j5Vlw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T18:15:38.524074Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
OK I got the handle of this cylinder thing now
(DIR) Post #APIkzuhj11khD7ecL2 by aetios@ak.kawen.space
2022-11-05T18:16:28.393291Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@xerz xerz 🤝 me installing os/2 on things
(DIR) Post #APIl0lP74xM8ekM0Bc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T18:16:50.992258Z
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@aetios you did where :blobcatpeekaboo:
(DIR) Post #APImYYsCH6TDamdaYi by aetios@ak.kawen.space
2022-11-05T18:17:08.003481Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz not yet but I want to put it on my lte 5000 series laptop
(DIR) Post #APImcIofupVGx2m3HM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T18:34:50.767994Z
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@aetios oooo, a Compaq! I got Toshibas and Acers around here, shame laptops die more easily so I need to learn how to repair that now….
(DIR) Post #APInZIBpt7xI5sjgbA by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T18:45:26.390899Z
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Now that I know exactly which config to use and what steps to follow, things worked first try :blobcatfluffowo: …….except the network card, because I forgot to set the IRQ and then the machine blew up and the partition table was lost????????
(DIR) Post #APJ5ae4EkGxB77nLxQ by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T22:07:18.326896Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
OK so here’s my brief guide into computering on 86boxSocket 8 machineIntel VS440Intel Pentium II Overdrive @ 333 Mhz192 MB of RAM (max supported ootb by Rhapsody DR2, feel free to raise)HDD with up to 1023 cylinders, 2GB or higher recommendedDiamond Stealth 3D 3000 PCI (S3 ViRGE/VX)Creative Sound Blaster 16SLiRP with Novell NE2000 ISA16 network cardStandard PS/2 mouse (haven’t played with this yet)If you want OS/2:Install in orderOS/2 Warp 4.52Leave the default graphics driver or pick SciTech Display DoctorAdd Sound Blaster 16 manually (configure IRQ correctly!)NE2000 Microsoft driver (configure IRQ correctly!)Enable DHCP, leave DDNS disabledObject Desktop 2.0 (see https://www.stardock.com/support_old/os2/od/odbug20/sec1.htm#question2 for errors!)Latest version of WarpINthis will go into a proper webpage later someday eventually anytime sometime
(DIR) Post #APJ5yax9yWeaPCuAb2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-05T22:11:45.462023Z
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but ye, that should give you full range compatibility between early MS-DOS and Windows XP including virtually everything in between :blobcatrainbow:
(DIR) Post #APJJ9xh546B7WY8OlU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T00:39:28.822794Z
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OK YES, VISUALAGE DOESN’T BREAK ANYMORE, NICENICE
(DIR) Post #APJJL8dUis4ue6mot6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T00:41:29.785878Z
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If you’re going for a setup like mine with VisualAge C++ 4.0: don’t install the toolkit included with OS/2, just let it do its own thing
(DIR) Post #APJKE7e46l6RV4GuZ6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T00:51:19.374074Z
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Don’t worry IBM, I will :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #APJKOp2RczXyyfmF72 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T00:53:21.626482Z
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Focus on that one last phrase. “we want you to […] develop the most incredible software this industry has ever seen“. Those are major words, even for your usual hype campaign. I wonder why they would use such words for OpenDoc :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #APJMAf3e8etJsSiMS0 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T01:13:11.194242Z
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hmm, SOM 2.x expects icc but VisualAge C++ 4.0 comes with iccv4… am I supposed to install both manually?
(DIR) Post #APJMvH9woH7RMttCVM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T01:21:38.053969Z
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one last trick for today: you can use Plop Boot Manager to dual boot between two different hard disk drives! :blobcatchristmasglowsticks:
(DIR) Post #APJNCxScmvHbUD3amO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T01:24:51.498281Z
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one last trick for today: you can use Plop Boot Manager to dual boot between two different hard disk drives and partitions no matter the OS! :blobcatchristmasglowsticks:
(DIR) Post #APJOWjiXh8WMblUtU0 by purple@nya.social
2022-11-06T01:39:38.312Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz@fedi.xerz.one THIS is the boot manager that the movies promised us. it was a really good one, too, since it could boot usb sticks hanging off PCI cards.
(DIR) Post #APKGbieUThuQHDQXL6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T11:45:36.397649Z
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@purple indeeds, I use it every time I need to boot from USB or CDs on old computers :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #APKGgbYcHeFPik0cka by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T11:46:29.620072Z
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OK so am back to: stuffsapparently I should be using make2cfg to convert icc makefiles for iccv4… but there’s no such command on the VisualAge C++ command line :blobcatsadreach:
(DIR) Post #APKH14e9q7hJjPMT4K by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T11:50:10.685747Z
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ok I do have it so that’s neat
(DIR) Post #APKHB40Z4KQ6e9bbQu by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T11:51:57.564563Z
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……o waitwhy did I open the default command line instead of the VisualAge one…..
(DIR) Post #APKHPar9jjFiZt8JMG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-06T11:54:36.632605Z
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ok this looks like a problem
(DIR) Post #APPQ62qlD4r6jupasK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-08T23:25:28.742069Z
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oh if you’re wondering what happened to thisyeah more :os2: is coming I just got a few things going onone of them is trying to permanently install Plop
(DIR) Post #APPThiIYMvcFrlU5uy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-09T00:05:44.944178Z
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also, just to show how capable my 86box setup is: it can actually boot into SliTaz Linux! Not a lot of RAM left tho :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #APPWbKZxwWMQQZHF7g by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-09T00:38:16.397545Z
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also, apparently the AMD K6-2+ also works and might be faster than the Pentium II Overdrive, will have to dig further tomorrrow
(DIR) Post #APPXEqVl9ak8l09TiC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-09T00:45:26.482420Z
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nvm I just confirmed itthey’re just about as fast lol
(DIR) Post #APQW4DoeGHZl3OJihU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-09T12:06:57.379914Z
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ok heya back :blobcatpeekaboo: so far: just realized the K6-2+ can be upgraded to 550MHz aaaaaaaand… seems to behave just as fast as lower frequencies? also sound stutters? Weird :blobcatthinkingglare: the K6-III+ ALSO works at 500MHz under certain motherboards… and yup, this one is DEFINITELY faster… except compile times remain the exact same so it’s not. Maybe I/O bottleneck?I should have used some actual benchmarks, but I’m pretty sure a 500MHz K6-III should be faster than a Pentium II Overdrive at 333MHz, so I’m keeping it even if not recommending it due to the stutter
(DIR) Post #APQWKq99W5z8ZFpdey by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-09T12:10:05.407620Z
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(if only 86box supported a CPU with SSE(2), then it would be able to do about anything modern… 3DNow is not really used anywhere afaik)
(DIR) Post #APShZlUghlvNoXc4rw by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T13:25:27.681243Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
ok so I’m back at :os2: ing with a completely clean install where I have both VisualAge C++ 4.0 and 3.0, as shown here…can this even be considered an IDE
(DIR) Post #APSjeG5J6yTTkw0nuC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T13:48:41.636477Z
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right, VisualAge 3 comes with its own version of SOM and breaks the setup I already hadgreaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
(DIR) Post #APSkMgwibPZpo6BLVY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T13:56:39.412004Z
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reinstalling OS/2 again because of course
(DIR) Post #APSkXjZLBstN7xVqfg by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T13:58:43.228127Z
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time to start again
(DIR) Post #APSmLEHHu92EVrEXnU by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T14:18:51.184607Z
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at least it was quick and flawless
(DIR) Post #APSqNosLCptSPk3VUO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:04:01.632654Z
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Man, VisualAge 3 is so weird
(DIR) Post #APSql54FAeE3IEiNF2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:08:21.846814Z
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I can see why people tend to prefer VisualAge 3: the output of the project is not one, but TWO folders. Except one of them is a project object, which believe it or not, IS a kind of folder object, no different from any other in OS/2.
(DIR) Post #APSqzyKoU8uUkuZ8iG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:11:03.071754Z
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The most IDE part about VisualAge C++ 3.0 is the editor, which is made to look like a typewriter.
(DIR) Post #APSrPbdXUx2rt8Y20e by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:15:41.226555Z
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you can then proceed to build and run from the project object(sorry for the black scrollbars, that’s a driver bug when using the highest resolution)
(DIR) Post #APSrjwiQpxDt3TXFCq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:19:21.746465Z
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the project compiled fine btw, you just need to tell it where the DLLs with the SOM objects areyou can tell this was made by an RPG fan
(DIR) Post #APSsK80kJnckVoM2eu by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:25:53.371846Z
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And here’s the fanciest part about this: everything in OS/2 is so objecty that everything has… templates! That’s right, you can even create the templates using templates for extra templating, and it’s all as native and consistent as it gets!!! :blobcatdab:
(DIR) Post #APSsYfbmCXbSlZbpy4 by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-11-10T15:27:51.091245Z
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@xerz > HDD with up to 1023 cylinders, 2GB or higher recommendedi haven't thought about cylinders in ages... hah
(DIR) Post #APSsdxLTgNSRE0VS6K by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:29:02.669122Z
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Think about this for a second.Everything works in the exact same way. Everything is objects, created with templates, and with a properties panel. Every object can talk to each other through SOM. Objects talking to each other lets you extend objects themselves, adding functionality. Apps are objects made of objects too, so everything about this applies.You see where I’m going?
(DIR) Post #APSsiqSihYHvKDE0xM by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:29:40.355528Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@feld well now you did :blobcatfluffowo:
(DIR) Post #APSslf03m4LQe0A652 by lina@eientei.org
2022-11-10T15:30:53.716965Z
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@xerz cool thanks for shitting up the global timeline now explain how to fix gajim trying to load libsoup2 and libsoup3 all at once
(DIR) Post #APSumVvRCNDKhKXD60 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:53:16.443389Z
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There’s one point at which you realize, why shouldn’t all documents work like this? Standardize it all so you can have documents made of objects that can do anything, on an app that is made of objects that can be extended at will.That’s OpenDoc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FSFvEIpm5o
(DIR) Post #APSuryVGNGhkmJtarY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T15:54:26.258271Z
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There’s one point at which you realize, why shouldn’t all documents work like this? Standardize it all so you can have documents made of objects that can do anything, on an app that is made of objects that can be extended at will.That’s OpenDoc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FSFvEIpm5o
(DIR) Post #APSvudrBh3JtZFzD7o by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T16:06:04.075016Z
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This is something I already talked about… on the Apple side of things. If you have a good eye, you’ll spot SOM is wondering around there :blobcateyes: https://fedi.xerz.one/notice/A5s6APMK9A5Ab2a5AW
(DIR) Post #APSxPqqHZ1NOlx0aXY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T16:22:54.322567Z
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Anyway, this is ultimately what IBM and Apple aspired to do: after Microsoft betrayed IBM by stealing VMS and making their own kernel, IBM immediately called Apple and Motorola to join forces. The idea was that they could make their own standards that made all computers work the same transparently, and Apple and IBM would be on top of it all, hoping wide support and competition would make Microsoft and Intel’s efforts fail.IBM would provide OS/2, SOM and POWER. Apple would provide Taligent and OpenDoc. Motorola would act as a fab for IBM. And they would all work towards a PC standard, CHRP.
(DIR) Post #APSxVumjojxCjqF4DY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T16:24:04.065155Z
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Anyway, this is ultimately what IBM and Apple aspired to do: after Microsoft betrayed IBM by stealing VMS and making their own kernel, IBM immediately called Apple and Motorola to join forces. The idea was that they could make their own standards that made all computers work the same transparently, and Apple and IBM would be on top of it all, hoping wide support and competition would make Microsoft and Intel’s efforts fail.IBM would provide OS/2, SOM and POWER. Apple would provide Taligent and OpenDoc. Motorola would act as a fab for IBM. And they would all work towards a PC standard, CHRP.No more worrying about CPU architectures. No more worrying about OSes. No more worrying about apps. The AIM alliance would do it all, and make it all work together for everyone.
(DIR) Post #APSyaNrVkfOk21AZIO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T16:35:21.763305Z
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So for instance, just take this article’s intro to see how important OpenDoc was.“‘And God went to say: “it is not good for the man to continue in a sea of Windows. I am going to create OpenDOC for him…’ “https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/OpenDOC,_a_Forgotten_Technology
(DIR) Post #APSyy20OfLZrC6bMg4 by libc@snack.social
2022-11-10T16:35:40.475141Z
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@xerz oh, that's just LPE. it works kinda like ISPF/SEU, which is really disorienting for non midrange/mainframe peopleyou've been basically thrown overboard into peak 90s IBM derangement. i didn't know anything SOM was still attested
(DIR) Post #APSyy2X0i5fIpFrPVo by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T16:40:19.431439Z
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@libc not sure what you mean with the “attested” part, I’m just doing a bit of first hand historic research here :blobcatsip:
(DIR) Post #APSz7s8eCod1UL9ZE8 by libc@snack.social
2022-11-10T16:40:59.419816Z
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@xerz more like "people have copies saved?"
(DIR) Post #APSz7sYsdHc0nhQW7E by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T16:42:04.157704Z
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@libc yeah, pretty much everything 90s IBM seems to be stored at places like archive.org, I’m just missing the Taligent part of the story (yeahhhhhhhhh)
(DIR) Post #APSzLF9hwL3Odh1cTQ by libc@snack.social
2022-11-10T16:42:37.133936Z
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@xerz maybe for OS/2 stuff; OS/400 stuff is a lot harder to find
(DIR) Post #APSzLFd8Awac6wn7Kq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T16:44:32.127043Z
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@libc welp, it’s supereasy to find the OS itself and AS/400, no idea about the software that was used on it otherwise
(DIR) Post #APSzdA5tUt8k9amlH6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T16:47:45.545766Z
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@libc welp, it’s supereasy to find the OS itself, but indeed starting VisualAge things seem to get harder :blobcatthinkingglare:
(DIR) Post #APT1MiC9eo9mtwzume by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:07:07.049413Z
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OpenDoc’s role in all of this is to let you create documents, put literally any “parts” on it (they can be interactive too), and use it at will customizing your editor of choice, called a “container”… which you didn’t even have to pay for, as IBM had the IBM BaseContainer, Apple had CyberDog, and there also was the standard ODFContainer. And if your container supported it, you could even have multiple people using the same OpenDoc at once, acting as online collaborative editing :blobcatsip:
(DIR) Post #APT1a52w0YMJXQ3l0S by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:09:36.631730Z
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So basically, OpenDoc documents acted as apps themselves, and you would never, ever need an app again.Something something I was foreshadowing https://fedi.xerz.one/notice/APDsfsAg2FfoPfX2dU
(DIR) Post #APT2PToFhNH36mhX5U by crashglasshouses@kolektiva.social
2022-11-10T17:07:34Z
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@xerz that was a lot of words that didn't tell me anything. maybe if they drew a picture it would help?
(DIR) Post #APT2PUE899ySP2oCQK by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:18:54.235795Z
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@crashglasshouses yeah, it came with a bunch of videos that I believe are these OpenDoc ones: https://www.youtube.com/user/thisoldmac/videos
(DIR) Post #APT2Wo3WozFhvdL8vg by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:20:14.857373Z
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I don’t know at which point Apple and IBM agreed the future of computers implied killing off the necessity for buying apps and managing them. But they apparently did.Just imagine if this had worked out :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #APT2XmLKfv92uE8D0i by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:20:25.988291Z
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I don’t know at which point Apple and IBM agreed the future of computers implied killing off the need for buying apps and managing them. But they apparently did.Just imagine if this had worked out :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #APT2oApFPwlPTDwRhA by vertigo@hackers.town
2022-11-10T17:22:41Z
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@xerz PC/GEOS used scalable fonts and device independent graphics on first release. In fact, the graphics APIs are so device independent that they only accept coordinates in points (1/72 inch). To get finer resolution, you actually need to go out of your way to query the device attributes and set up a transformation matrix which lets you scale down explicitly.
(DIR) Post #APT2qoTywdCP2lFmJk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:23:48.921741Z
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@vertigo ah neatneat! sorry for misinforming, my bad :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #APT2rI6co2LCv0YY4m by enkiv2@eldritch.cafe
2022-11-10T17:23:23Z
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@xerz It was a popular idea during the early 90s, when even Sun was trying to promote the "computing appliance" model!But I think OpenDoc drew on Lisa-era Apple people's experience, as ex-PARC developers, with Smalltalk environments. (Not all of the ex-PARC folks who worked on the Lisa and Macintosh jumped ship for NeXT; some stayed around.)
(DIR) Post #APT32PCSlpP26daRKi by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:25:56.715874Z
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@enkiv2 I think so as well, in fact Apple even went to the point of calling templates “stationaries” just like in the Lisa Office System… but still (and I was gonna talk this in a moment) it seems that it kills a more profitable app-based business model, so I still don’t get why it was a trend at the time :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #APT3JpIqyOEPzCsnEe by vertigo@hackers.town
2022-11-10T17:28:47Z
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@xerz Fun fact: SOM was also one of the first deployments of CORBA. (It does not conform to CORBA 2.x; some might consider that a benefit, though.)
(DIR) Post #APT4IAQfYWJusmJMIa by enkiv2@eldritch.cafe
2022-11-10T17:29:22Z
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@xerz I don't know either.Maybe, since always-on internet connections were mostly limited to corporate users at the time, it was thought that you could sort of replace shrink-wrapped software with expensive subscriptions to user-generated templates, thus cutting third-party application developers out of the loop for business users?Alternately, it might just be because large companies have enough money that they can afford to actively lose some on the whims of particular developers who have the social capital to make their personal preferences trendy within the company.
(DIR) Post #APT4JoeLVBrnujUimG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:40:18.865738Z
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Things get weirder, however, when talking Taligent and OS/2. IBM was somehow promising both were the future, and this made no sense. Indeed, as I mentioned earlier in the thread (https://fedi.xerz.one/notice/AOwQD1MagCbG7WEvWi).Taligent aspired to be a fully-fledged OS to rule them all, based on a microkernel that would run other OSes inside, that just happened to ship with its own fully OOP frameworks with support for SOM and OpenDoc… but IBM already had OS/2, and wanted to upgrade it with the Workplace OS microkernel. Both TalOS and Workplace OS were based on Mach. So there was a lot of duplicity happening on the IBM side of things.Meanwhile, Apple seemed to want to ship TalOS as the successor to Mac OS at first, but after Taligent delayed as Apple left it on its own, they eventually announced Copland as the new Mac OS 8, which would still support Taligent apps. That went well :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #APT4ULL6ojTqCAW4x6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:42:12.698504Z
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Things get weirder, however, when talking Taligent and OS/2. IBM was somehow promising both were the future, and this made no sense.Taligent aspired to be a fully-fledged OS to rule them all, based on a microkernel that would run other OSes inside, that just happened to ship with its own fully OOP frameworks with support for SOM and OpenDoc… but IBM already had OS/2, and as I mentioned above (https://fedi.xerz.one/notice/AOwQD1MagCbG7WEvWi), they wanted to upgrade it with the Workplace OS microkernel. Both TalOS and Workplace OS were based on Mach. It was clear IBM was not really interested in Taligent as a product, and wanted to push the stuff they already had instead.Meanwhile, Apple seemed to want to ship TalOS as the successor to Mac OS at first, but after Taligent delayed as Apple left it on its own, they eventually announced Copland as the new Mac OS 8, which would still support Taligent apps. That went well
(DIR) Post #APT4dkLzBVaeNiPVlA by WomanCorn@schelling.pt
2022-11-10T17:43:55Z
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@xerzOh man. Cyberdog was a nice browser, but a browser was a terrible platform to use to demonstrate OpenDoc.
(DIR) Post #APT4iL6wSntlXaZ1NY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:44:44.071852Z
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@vertigo correct! I’ve been omitting CORBA so far, but it’s mentioned a lot across SOM stuff, and there was one point at which Apple wanted to have CORBA support on OpenDoc.…I wonder what was DSOM for then…?
(DIR) Post #APT4pJn3lwH9TJal0K by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T17:46:00.510930Z
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@WomanCorn yeah I feel the same, when you got Cyberdog you were thinking about getting a web browser, not a document editor :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #APT7x8oel2qNcBlDN2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T18:20:56.846334Z
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Here’s about the only image we have of Taligent’s operating system. It does look like a mix of MacOS, OS/2, and also looks suspiciously similar to BeOS. No apps to be seen, btw: it was all about People, Places and Things™, with inboxes that were actual folders, printers that behaved just like any other object, and with templates being called “stationaries”.
(DIR) Post #APT99Srq8JNpESgp5E by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T18:34:20.927725Z
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In the end, sadly, things were destined to end up poorly. Either Apple and IBM realized the business model did not benefit them, or they got stuck in the infighting, or both. Users didn’t care about OpenDoc much while it was available, and Workplace OS shipped for CHRP computers way too late. Taligent just got absorbed by IBM, and its CommonPoint framework was deemed too hard to use. Steve Jobs, who had been selling NeXTSTEP the whole time, ended up “putting a bullet in the head of OpenDoc“ because he “didn’t think it was great technology“. https://donhopkins.medium.com/focusing-is-about-saying-no-steve-jobs-wwdc-97-ff0174c171d0Kinda dodged a bullet (considering that OpenDoc was based on cooperative multitasking, there was no serious security model whatsoever, C++ was an overall mess, and Sun came up with Java which had the advantage of a VM), but nothing replaced the void.oh and yeah, HP was involved at one point lolhttps://books.google.com/books?id=ZDgEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133 https://old.hotchips.org/wp-content/uploads/hc_archives/hc15/2_Mon/grimes.pdf
(DIR) Post #APTA8WQnUtKJwx9gYq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T18:45:26.078060Z
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still, just look at it! even chats were documents created from templates! they were meant to be all extensible from the start! :blobcatsadreach: https://root.cern/TaligentDocs/TaligentOnline/DocumentRoot/1.0/Docs/books/DS/DS_10.html
(DIR) Post #APTC0DF79h3K1tr8iG by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T19:06:21.190334Z
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A whole decade of tech had been wasted. It essentially went nowhere, not just within Taligent, IBM and Apple, but everywhere you looked at. The people involved with it were all pretty frustrated. Eventually they had to move on, but they all clearly loved what they worked on.https://old.hotchips.org/wp-content/uploads/hc_archives/hc15/2_Mon/Disasters.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/19981205185028/http://www.best.com/%7Ezaveri/talumni/
(DIR) Post #APTDloMr2liKjcjley by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T19:25:47.235370Z
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If it helps, a liiiiiiiiiiitle bit of Taligent DID survive. They managed to ship the following:CommonPoint, the framework which allowed people to develop Taligent apps (it’s nowhere to be found online, if you have a copy PLEASE get in contact)IBM Open Class, which took CommonPoint and shipped many of its classes as part of VisualAge C++ 4.0 ( :blobcateyes: ) https://books.google.com/books?id=ZwHxz0UaB54C&pg=PA206Java’s Unicode support! Three billion devices run Taligent https://ssl.icu-project.org/docs/papers/history_of_java_internationalization.htmlThe MVP object model https://www.wildcrest.com/Potel/Portfolio/mvp.pdfUnit testing… yes, as a concept https://shebanator.com/2007/08/21/a-brief-history-of-test-frameworks/
(DIR) Post #APTEWuJGlhrKm5W8TA by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T19:34:33.539303Z
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I’m gonna try to update the thread as soon as I can find more about CommonPoint, learn about its relationship with IOC, and get a working dev environment for OpenDoc in OS/2.Meanwhile, I’ll finish off with this: while trying to research, I came across this article. I was following the footsteps of someone else who had given up before me. I largely agree with it:“Rather than buying “an application” from a vendor that shows me their beautiful, crafted icon until I’m ready to launch it, I buy a capability that extends the ways in which I can interact with the People, Places and Things represented on my computer. My computer does not become Photoshop, rather I gain Photoshopness by adding it to my computer.It seems that any shift from app-centric to goal-centric computer interfaces – PPT, OpenDoc/OLE, NeXT Services, scripting/automation tools, the spatial desktop – is going to violate the Fundamental Paradox of App Marketing: my app is so intuitive and easy to use that it just fades into the backdrop of your life, however it must never fade so far that you do not see its name or its icon, and are not reminded who we are and how much we help you.“https://www.sicpers.info/2017/12/computings-fundamental-principle-of-no-learning/
(DIR) Post #APTEXxxagLjaNxskqG by mfitzp@fosstodon.org
2022-11-10T19:33:01Z
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@xerz that looked too similar to BeOS to be a coincidence. The Wikipedia page for Taligent says the founding lead engineer of the "Pink" OS Erich Ringewald went on to found Be Inc in 1990.
(DIR) Post #APTEdlL4WKpQykd4me by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T19:35:06.457192Z
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@mfitzp exactly what I meant to imply, yes :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #APTFSornAEaaglHOhE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T19:45:06.797011Z
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Oh and I didn't forget about Google Fuchsia. Pink + Purple.
(DIR) Post #APTFllSw25s1dvgdaC by ffg@a2mi.social
2022-11-10T19:37:40Z
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@xerz I used Cyberdog as my daily driver browser for almost a year (which was quite a commitment, I admit) -- being able to embed a web browser in a spreadsheet, etc.
(DIR) Post #APTG0v7qOrWzwj34DI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T19:51:19.565234Z
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@ffg o, neat to hear about someone actually using OpenDoc! Glad it could help you, I was born around that time and it's pretty cool to see back and live what it was like as well :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #APTG4YYuETrx7oRM8G by edclayand@orbsafe.masto.host
2022-11-10T19:40:30Z
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@xerzThis thread is... it starts so mundane but the you go so deep.
(DIR) Post #APTG4ZEjixKVDY0lKi by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T19:51:52.110039Z
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@edclayand you're welcome :blobcatrainbow:
(DIR) Post #APTI7oFYYsUWYc4JNY by ffg@a2mi.social
2022-11-10T19:53:48Z
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@xerz It's actually amazing that it worked as well as it did -- an end-user-facing deeply OOP environment running on computers with 8MB of memory and incredibly slow hard drives, etc.
(DIR) Post #APTI7pKuWSMtvVa6Ma by ffg@a2mi.social
2022-11-10T19:59:56Z
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@xerz oh, an on the Mac, running on an OS with cooperative multitasking and no memory protection
(DIR) Post #APTIA8JQwN9fMKzRPk by mfitzp@fosstodon.org
2022-11-10T19:59:38Z
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@xerz oh, sorry. I see that now. To subtle for my tired brain.I think I'd always assumed that whatever project in Apple was the inspiration for BeOS had died around the same time they left. Strange to hear it sort of limped on for another 10 years.Still have a soft spot for BeOS.
(DIR) Post #APTIeKMgh64FQWuTNw by tschak@oldbytes.space
2022-11-10T20:15:09Z
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@xerz it was never completely built, everything worked on in hyper-compartmentalized fashion. I suspect the one and only screenshot was just a mockup.
(DIR) Post #APTIeKnH6FKokzLhpI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T20:20:50.955851Z
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@tschak well, the original source (https://web.archive.org/web/20060702071602/http://robinnet.net/resume/Robin_portfolio_Taligent.htm) explicitly states “This is a screen shot from an early concept demo“, so it seems to be… both…?
(DIR) Post #APTIhSZqcLrjlWYipc by ardgedee@octodon.social
2022-11-10T20:20:05Z
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@xerz There were a lot of companies receiving Taligent development kits (in hopes they would make apps for it). I'd bet there are still copies cached away in basements or storage units belonging to people who worked for them back then.
(DIR) Post #APTIvcEFWuHVknCs40 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T20:24:00.286926Z
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@ardgedee I definitely want to hear about copies of TalAE/CommonPoint! I asked OS/2 wizard Esther Schindler on Twitter, but I should try to dig deeper on my own (even if chances are much worse here in Spain)
(DIR) Post #APTIxsV60EwUnaAIl6 by mimavox@mastodon.se
2022-11-10T20:22:53Z
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@xerz Love the icon design!
(DIR) Post #APTJ282AByfC8IevJY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T20:25:10.885037Z
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@mimavox it was all vector icons, pretty 90s stuff overall! :blobcatartist:
(DIR) Post #APTJUKiSdL81ZftNvU by ogtrekker@trekkies.social
2022-11-10T19:55:12Z
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@xerz man, that harkens back.
(DIR) Post #APTJWDtqwmlD0t7dQW by fabianmu@tilde.zone
2022-11-10T19:53:44Z
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@xerz those building icons <3! plus much love for BeOS
(DIR) Post #APTNLmvCnQYYGM2Bvs by Markus@social.retrocomputing.at
2022-11-10T21:11:54Z
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@xerz didn't one of the Taligent Guys found or lead Be? That would explain ...
(DIR) Post #APTNLnOd225ljbngnI by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T21:13:00.865890Z
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@Markus yes https://fosstodon.org/@mfitzp/109321177089032679
(DIR) Post #APTXcjaPRvmaNn1hk8 by nnungest@fosstodon.org
2022-11-10T21:40:14Z
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@xerz that's adorable
(DIR) Post #APTXeM51odh23i7ZLs by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-10T23:08:58.174440Z
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@nnungest there’s a reason why I’m so into it :blobcatmelt: 💗
(DIR) Post #APVBfsA8D7SNAskKoa by bunnyhero@octodon.social
2022-11-11T04:40:42Z
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@xerz somewhere i still have these OpenDoc stickers i got from a WWDC in the 90s. i took this pic when i came across them recently-ish but now i don't remember where i put them
(DIR) Post #APVBqmVRa4Aiojutt2 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-11T18:14:07.123858Z
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@bunnyhero oh I don’t remember seeing that OpenDoc logo before, minimalistic and abstract :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #APVBuSooij8suqjajo by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-11T04:30:55Z
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@xerz "looks suspiciously similar to BeOS"People do know that Erich Ringwald worked onthe Pink OS, right?
(DIR) Post #APVBuWm80fMtBfVV6O by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-11T18:14:45.920891Z
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@bitsavers yes, this is the third time I get a reply, I just meant to be a little bit ironic about it :blobcatderpy:
(DIR) Post #APVCNpnMNCz0Zf3dmi by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-11T04:49:08Z
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@mfitzp @xerz "the founding lead engineer of the "Pink" OS Erich Ringewald" Erich wasn't the founding engineer. The original OS came out of an ATG project Chris Moeller and Chris McFall were working on inspired by the Stanford V Kernel. I was there, and I worked for Erich before he went to Pink on the software for Hugh Martin's Hurricane 88110 RISC project.
(DIR) Post #APVCOwpBiuRafJRZiK by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-11T05:00:18Z
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@mfitzp @xerzI wonder if there are any #Taligent people around here. 1990 doesn't sound right for Erich leaving Apple. I don't remember the year Pink development moved to Mountain View in the building next to where Kaleida ended up. I remember visting Erich (and maybe Phil Goldman, or had he left for General Magic before then) ??
(DIR) Post #APVCPL8VKk9i4AfL9c by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-11T05:06:07Z
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@xerz Meanwhile, Microsoft wanted OpenDoc deadwhich ultimately came to pass.Document (Stationary) oriented processing was a Lisa thing that was discarded by Macintosh.
(DIR) Post #APVEXpPWrCOABbnv4y by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-11T18:44:14.078533Z
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@bitsavers @mfitzp here’s an excerpt from his LinkedIn, it seems to imply he moved around November 1990 to January 1991
(DIR) Post #APVUV77Y9amjVj7dcu by mfitzp@fosstodon.org
2022-11-11T20:16:37Z
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@bitsavers @xerz that's my bad, the page actually said he was a founding member of the Pink team."Legacy" section at bottom of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent Further up it says "Pink would receive the Gang, with Erich Ringewald as technical lead..."
(DIR) Post #APViNdMTnXYIXsQu0m by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-11T17:26:58Z
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@xerz Mike was head of the ATG Graphics and Sound group in 1986 when he did those. They were done on the Purple Cray XMP in valley green 3
(DIR) Post #APViRhuunqpbpeTxfk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-12T00:19:21.949801Z
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@bitsavers curious, looks like a pretty low profile and relatively separate building to have such an important piece of hardware on… but then again that was the point :blobcateyes:
(DIR) Post #APViTLwXTKjkGE1hMe by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-11T18:59:02Z
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@xerz @mfitzp Dredging up lots of memories. Pretty sure he had a gig in ATG Paris for a year, worked for Hugh with Peter Miller from Lotus. Then went off with Gassee and Sakoman at Be. @swetland may remember more of the details. Somewhere in there, Zarko Draganic and Phil Goldman left the group for General Magic.Weird, just had a feeling of deja-vu that I'd written this same thing on the birdsite in the past
(DIR) Post #APViZIdqey2Vl77Txg by ennedia@mastodon.social
2022-11-11T19:26:29Z
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@bitsavers @mfitzp @xerz AFAIK Chris Espinosa worked at Taligent but I'm not sure if he has already created a Mastodon account…
(DIR) Post #APViv0VujvSjuHl9Sy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-12T00:24:38.035399Z
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@ennedia @bitsavers @mfitzp oh it would be really interesting to hear from him for pretty obvious reasons… I don’t want to spam him with questions that feel like an interrogatory though! :blobcatsweats:
(DIR) Post #APVizEUYiA3QPx8ljE by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-11T05:17:37Z
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@xerz It was no fun if you were there.Pink kept itself completely isolated from the rest of Apple (like Newton). Imagine trying to write drivers for a new RISC computer and never getting the API spec. The meetings were no fun. I suspect that was the reason the Shiner group went with AIX, though Portable Netware was also being worked on.
(DIR) Post #APVj4DIAbEkM90ijom by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-12T00:26:19.569082Z
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@bitsavers …ngl at least I would have expected them to have all they needed to work with PowerPC :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #APVj4VrDZfTdivFywi by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-11T05:24:15Z
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@xerz You have to read what he read carefully, Opus (Ogler) was the V-like microkernel the two Chris' did.It has a chapter in the Big Pink 3 ERS on bitsavers.
(DIR) Post #APVjE09eIbbEIMP0JE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-12T00:28:04.235952Z
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@bitsavers Interesting, I’ll read it after I get used to the interface tomorrow! Overall, thanks a lot, your comments so far have already been very insightful, it’s been really enjoyable to read and I appreciate the transparency and the care you show :blobcatheart:
(DIR) Post #APVjHFsyGgHdx89XMG by bitsavers@oldbytes.space
2022-11-12T00:28:01Z
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@xerz Yes, exactly the point.It also had a massive air conditioning system.I only remember a few pictures, like one of Sculley standing in a purple-lit corridor inside the building.Cameras, obviously, were banned inside.Fun fact: When you ordered a Cray, it came in any color you wanted. Sam Holland's EA, Paula Evans, liked purple, so the Cray was purple, along with all the cubes in the building.
(DIR) Post #APZuI4MIUFAicVIgNc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-14T00:50:52.354593Z
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@bitsavers ok got it, sorry for the delay… very clean copy, glad this has been archived! This is the only resource I have come up with which describes Opus instead of just quoting its existence – and that’s just the beginning of the document!
(DIR) Post #APZuIvtRRkAyeeDOts by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-14T00:51:05.070798Z
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@bitsavers interesting to see this is pre-PowerPC, since it talks about that Jaguar“Some day, the company might even want to run Pink on something really obscure, like an Intel processor (“bite your tongue!”).“Well they weren’t wrong :blobcatderpy: Also interesting to see they already were talking about language safety and reproducibility, something which the software community at large is only NOW starting to acknowledge. And things like all interfaces going through objects are still not widely adopted.also OHMYGOSH THERE’S EVEN SCREENSHOTS?????
(DIR) Post #APZxmokMsf3D2ZueYq by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-14T01:30:03.787135Z
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@bitsavers this is an absolute delight to read both for how informative and well-crafted the ERSs are, shame it’s 2:30am here already :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #AQVsZ8I49iPRv9pq8e by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-12-11T01:05:58.978023Z
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OK, so I can finally write an update. Sadly, I still didn’t find a copy of the CommonPoint Application System, so please point me towards one if you can!!! :blobcatreach: First and foremost: here’s an interview to these two brothers called Stephan and William Adams, and it has some really interesting insights :blobcateyes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBkvaNDPuxA
(DIR) Post #AQVsZ9WdZ1evkdezUO by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-12-11T01:14:15.134404Z
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the Gang of Four started at Taligent too (Erich Gamma worked back then on cpProfessional, ended up co-creating Eclipse too so… yay?)apparently they came up with names for patterns as they went along… makes sensethey had invented Drawpile before anyone else could even conceive such an idea“So Taligent took out a half-a-page ad in the San Jose Mercury news for a week, and it just kind of ‒ it was a recruitment ad for developers, and it’s like, “Come join Taligent,” and they had William and I standing there, and we were the face of Taligent’s developer community, because there weren’t any developers. We were the only ones“ ouch““We want to make the impossible… I mean the really hard possible, and the really easy, you know, easy.” And everything was hard.“ ah yes, the OOP experience (apparently that’s “the IBM influence“) :blobcatderpy:“there was no file browser for the longest time. I created the file browser that was interesting, and this is what we actually demonstrated at shows because they didn’t have one. It’s like how can you not have a file browser. At NeXT, they had a file browser from day one.“ …“they weren’t looking to be able to make the best user experience on the planet. They were trying to figure out how they can wrestle Microsoft market share away from Microsoft. So, the way they even looked at the marketplace was vastly different“ Not breaking news, but a confirmation indeedthe analysis on NeXTSTEP/Objective-C vs Taligent/C++ is absolutely brilliant, and DOES confirm my suspicions about why things went wrong: “It’s not like the Objective-C, where you can just pass messages and dispatches and all this sort of stuff. It’s like you might as well be writing in assembly, right?“
(DIR) Post #AQVsZL2akYkvSvhAK8 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-12-11T01:41:49.039629Z
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Second and last: it’s not a particularly great finding, but it’s neat nonethelessHere’s one of the very first CDs with CommonPoint ever made, kept at the Computer History Museum :blobcatheart:https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662317