Post APC7qrtn0xdkk7EXse by alexstandiford@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by alexstandiford@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #APBpjDq7kyOFIdiv6O by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-11-02T09:16:44Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
We should not be optimising Mastodon so it can handle more people per server. We should be optimising Mastodon so it incentivises more serves with fewer people.(And if you take that line of thinking to its logical conclusion, you arrive at the idea behind the Small Web: https://ar.al/2020/08/07/what-is-the-small-web/)#decentralisation #federation #fediverse #SmallWeb
(DIR) Post #APBpjEIq2DMIjh9qrI by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-11-02T09:24:51Z
2 likes, 3 repeats
Food for thought: The bigger mastodon.social gets, the less successful the #fediverse is.Sadly, the fundamental design of Mastodon mirrors the design of Big Tech (a server architecture that can support hundreds of thousands of “users”) and thus inherits its success criteria.I feel it’s time we at least started thinking about what the web would look like if we all had our own place on it and what it would take to get there from here.#decentralisation #centralisation #fediverse #SmallWeb
(DIR) Post #APBpjEhIZGvNxYbNz6 by ff0000@chaos.social
2022-11-02T09:55:45Z
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@aral Wouldn't a nice start be to go from: how can i run Mastodon (or any other) from ones own computer using that as a server.
(DIR) Post #APBpjF5l6KUTBQ2v6u by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T10:06:40.784099Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ff0000 @aral From your own computer: heavily depends on your connection (beware of CG-NATs, dynamic IPs and routers with no port forwarding!) from there you can basically follow instructions for Docker and expose the respective ports
(DIR) Post #APBpjJ5uDiz7b295tY by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-11-02T09:56:59Z
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* servers, even
(DIR) Post #APBprvzLUqcoXcBuRk by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-11-02T10:08:18.404120Z
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@ff0000 @aral of course you'll also need to buy a web domain and setup DNS before installing Mastodon, so take care of thatif it is all too much of a hassle, you can always host with e.g. @mastohost or Netcup
(DIR) Post #APC0Xh0iZbR7nBNqL2 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-11-02T10:12:26Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
Optimising #Mastodon = designing flows that encourage people to leave mastodon.social for other instances, not accepting any more new members on mastodon.social, and making design changes that limit how much a single instance can scale.A single instance that can scale to host hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people, is not a design success in decentralisation, it’s a design failure. (It’s a design success in #BigTech.)CC @Gargron #decentralisation #centralisation #federation
(DIR) Post #APC0Xj2v0ONw6aQd2u by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-11-02T11:09:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
PS. This isn’t some new revelation; I’ve been advocating for this from the start :)https://mastodon.social/@aral/2160843#mastodon #federation #decentralisation #centralisation #design #singleTenant #SmallWeb
(DIR) Post #APC16F1UccnN7sDhvk by realcaseyrollins@social.freetalklive.com
2022-11-02T12:14:09Z
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@aral @Gargron I disagree somewhat; yes, scaling well is an L for decentralization, but it is a W for the freedom of hosters.What if you want to use #Mastodon to host your own centralized platform? #TruthSocial is a good example of this; #Trump aside, it's awesome that you can use #Mastodon to both be part of a huge network, make your own network, or make a standalone social site.
(DIR) Post #APC56q9Czg6O59N0Jk by drq@mastodon.ml
2022-11-02T12:59:01Z
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@aral I wouldn't be so categorical.> A single instance that can scale to host hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of peoplemeans that running an instance for couple thousands or hundreds people is becoming way cheaper, and as a result, more accessible.This is the exact problem that, for instance, Matrix has. It's voracious, and a nightmare to work with, so just anyone from the street can't afford to host it. Whereas XMPP servers like ejabberd or Prosody can serve tens of thousands of users from a matchbox computer like rPi. So I can be confident that they will handle my needs easy-peasy.And Mastodon as well is such a beast, that code optimization is way overdue. I think we should welcome it when the software is trying to get better, not bash its creator for it.@Gargron
(DIR) Post #APC6Vv9vb7fWoqEJVY by jimbo@jako.social
2022-11-02T10:23:00Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aral Maintaining independent instance is still quite an work, there’s need for some infrastructure as code since all instances are relatively similar
(DIR) Post #APC6VvhbZubiVHzD04 by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2022-11-02T13:13:56.913685Z
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@jimbo @aral all you need is Internet connection, domain plus a Raspberry Pi or something similaryou install Pleroma, the lightweight Fediverse servereven a 100% non-technical person like me can do thatI have one running since about one year#SelfHosting
(DIR) Post #APC78G4SISfAgCx0UK by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2022-11-02T13:21:45.196484Z
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I wouldn't host my server out of my home ... and sure that's enough for a baseline install, but you do need to learn about security and keeping things up to date.It's not an insane amount to learn, but it's also not trivial.
(DIR) Post #APC7EYT4oG5ZTVTB0i by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2022-11-02T13:22:52.509381Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
The Big Web is the centralised web; it is a web in the sense of a spider’s web. The spiders that sit at its centre waiting to suck you dry are Big Tech people farmers like Facebook, Google, etc.On the Big Web, you never own your own home. You must rent your home from Megacorps. Most often, you don’t have to pay for your home using money. You pay for it by forfeiting your privacy, freedom of speech, and your other human rights. Collectively, we pay for it by forfeiting a democratic future.This is a good article.
(DIR) Post #APC7QziJKvODS1WjIW by Flick@spinster.xyz
2022-11-02T13:25:01.350649Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @aral Link? Can’t see the OP.
(DIR) Post #APC7Yo9KDSaBtxt8bI by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2022-11-02T13:26:32.495458Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
https://ar.al/2020/08/07/what-is-the-small-web/
(DIR) Post #APC7nVV7pgJyPO5uYi by Flick@spinster.xyz
2022-11-02T13:29:01.714640Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @aral Ta. @thatguyoverthere have you seen this?
(DIR) Post #APC7qrtn0xdkk7EXse by alexstandiford@fosstodon.org
2022-11-02T10:15:12Z
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@aral @michaelbrooks this is 100% where I am taking myself! I’ve been thinking about buying my own server that literally serves my personal needs. Host my websites, my social accounts, and maybe even my online streaming/video if it can.
(DIR) Post #APC7qsLRM9l47sAcym by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2022-11-02T13:29:47.141613Z
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I recently built out a homelab for a lot of my stuff, using mostly old consumer grade parts:https://djsumdog.com/@djsumdog/posts/AP5wLlV2kH5BYp3V5s
(DIR) Post #APCAuWszNizYaqIRgu by wjmaggos@liberal.city
2022-11-02T14:03:23Z
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@aral @GargronIs there any server software optimized for single user instances?
(DIR) Post #APCBYkQATfpS9fze1Q by alexstandiford@fosstodon.org
2022-11-02T13:40:00Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @aral @michaelbrooks that’s SO cool!
(DIR) Post #APCCaxO1LMYGtqbdsO by KitKat@masthead.social
2022-11-02T14:22:54Z
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@drq @aral @Gargron you can't have features for free - e.g. Matrix Servers surely can be optimized a lot, but you will never scale as good with #users or #sentMessages because Matrix simply does more things.
(DIR) Post #APCHYNYK6LuYxG107s by anji@mastodon.social
2022-11-02T14:37:20Z
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@aral I think we need Decentralized Identity to finally happen more than anything. There's no reason why, in this age, the Fediverse still works like E-mail. With all our data and identity stored on a single server identified with a traditional user@domain URL.Once you can use your private key to interact with your identity on any server at any time, that's when #decentralization can really kick off. Mastodon.social down? No problem! Just seamlessly continue from another server...
(DIR) Post #APCHYO3AFga6UuRdCK by pamaca@descentraliza.me
2022-11-02T15:18:25.868315Z
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@anji @aral @humanetech something like nostr?https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nostr
(DIR) Post #APCHowKgYeEBSMX6x6 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-11-02T10:23:33Z
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@shine Exactly :)Mastodon is what Mastodon is at this point and I don’t see it embracing #degrowth (although I’ll be the first to sing it praises if it does).I’d love to see more single-tenant ActivityPub implementations (and hopefully they’ll support the migration protocols implemented Mastodon).
(DIR) Post #APCHox9NWAmFzaFay0 by jeena@toot.jeena.net
2022-11-02T15:21:27Z
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@aral @shine I kind of had this on my to-do list for years to make my own website which already has notes, photos, podcasts, events, likes, etc. ActivityPub aware like https://aaronparecki.com/ does which would bridge the IndieWeb with the Fediverse. Some day in the future perhaps.
(DIR) Post #APCa2S0Vtyh0dJgq6y by zleap@qoto.org
2022-11-02T18:45:38Z
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@aral I agree,
(DIR) Post #APChqT7siQPQGGvxOC by tivasyk@mastodon.social
2022-11-02T12:20:10Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@aral and if you take that line of thinking even a bit further to its _real_ conclusion… you arrive at the idea behind peer 2 peer networks— where every #fediverse client is a server.p.s. i'm not saying this is or should be the goal, just pointing out how lines of thinking don't always end where one thinks they do ;-)
(DIR) Post #APCjK0FClJFjKN0RBw by adamasnemesis@social.adamasnemesis.com
2022-11-02T20:19:55Z
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@aral As someone who makes a point of having my own instance on here, I agree.
(DIR) Post #APClTEb6xwiuMGmZ72 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-11-02T12:31:40Z
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@tivasyk Indeed. I fully recognise that the Small Web is training wheels for the bicycle that is peer-to-peer.
(DIR) Post #APClTF9qsmVq612JGK by otso@pleroma.karjalazet.se
2022-11-02T20:53:33.932092Z
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@aral @tivasyk like Safe Network maybe?https://primer.safenetwork.org/
(DIR) Post #APCs1A9gaXAe9RW2Yi by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2022-11-02T12:07:20Z
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@aral Finally someone said it. @Gargron
(DIR) Post #APCs1AacyMinV07YYK by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-11-02T12:44:28Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@specktator_ Been saying it for a while ;)https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/100542567698346975
(DIR) Post #APEXduzHCrWxgJCnaq by psyBunny@tooot.im
2022-11-03T15:48:21Z
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@aral servers cost money
(DIR) Post #APEXdvN1mYWsryJlc8 by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-11-03T17:18:00Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
when I was about to first buy a computer with money I'd earned myself, I fancied a dual processor machine (those were rare back then), but found out that, for the same budget, I could get 3 single-processor machines with the same configuration. the more you demand of a single server, steering it away from sweet-spot-budget common-off-the-shelf components, the less efficient the system becomes. that's why aiming for supporting big centralized servers is a self-defeating goal: it will add complexity to the software and make it harder and less efficient for everyone. the big players know this and scale by adding small servers, even if they're made to look like a single big server. we have no reason to pretend we're a single big server: our federated architecture is designed to scale at the network level already, and that decentralization strengthens it, whereas centralization on big servers, if successful, would weaken it.
(DIR) Post #APEiHNPAU1zGeVlnLk by guysoft@hayu.sh
2022-11-03T07:18:47.280034Z
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@aral @specktator_ Its not practical on the current infrastructure of the internet. Because one of the dependencies of any ActivityPub instance is a domain. Also other things need to happen. IPv6 will need to be adopted fully becauae there aren't enough IPv4 addresses for that many servers.
(DIR) Post #APEiHO77qb9IqqKtrk by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2022-11-03T07:34:26Z
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@guysoft what is not practical? @aral
(DIR) Post #APEiHOVaNeiO4hmQzY by guysoft@hayu.sh
2022-11-03T08:38:10.359332Z
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@specktator_ @aral as I wrote. Not enough IPv4 to register enough domains. And not enough IPv6 adoption to solve that.ActivityPub uses domains for identification.
(DIR) Post #APEiHOrD5G0p9lthhI by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2022-11-03T09:04:33Z
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@guysoft How many domains/ipv4 do you think are "enough"?This so wrong, you get it right? @aral
(DIR) Post #APEiHPJZNohIZjALtw by guysoft@hayu.sh
2022-11-03T11:44:41.865540Z
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@specktator_ @aral I think at the moment we have a issue that there are not enough IPv4 addresses for servers at all. We ran out in 2011. You need to pay for them for hosted servers (you data center needs to have had them). On mobile and new ISPs you just don't have them.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv4_address_exhaustion
(DIR) Post #APEiHPfC5PzjenHcbg by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2022-11-03T11:57:00Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@guysoft I'm familiar with the issue but I think is not much of an problem regarding mastodon instances. The network has almost 4k instances already (and keep counting) which can host a fair user amount. Also, the IPv6 roll out is not great but it's working fairly well for now. Imho there's no big problem either on creating new instances or hosting current user flows at the moment. The only problem I find is the one of allocating and spreading the users across instances. @aral
(DIR) Post #APFAMZmsfdKhDj845A by biffbiffbiff@infosec.exchange
2022-11-02T10:36:40Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@aral this is the logical conclusion for human interaction and civilization in general imo. Smaller communities lead to less depersonalization, less "othering", more caring.
(DIR) Post #APFI8vVXuv5YAF1V3Y by badrihippo@fosstodon.org
2022-11-02T16:48:34Z
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@aral this makes sense, and is incidentally something I was thinking about this morning too.https://scholar.social/@badri/109273595283228563Does it say something that I took "we should get people off mastodon.social" as an established fact rather than a new revelation? 😅
(DIR) Post #APFI8wAJTLhMCg63bE by badrihippo@fosstodon.org
2022-11-02T16:50:34Z
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@aral I didn't get to the extreme of "one person, one server" but I am considering setting up a Mastodon instance for my family so there's that 😉If I were to set up a single-person instance, I'd probably look for some lighter implementation than Mastodon (not that Mastodon is bad, but I personally don't mind even a less polished experience if it saves on resources and I'm guessing something geared to few users would be more efficient in that field).
(DIR) Post #APFI8wdNjGwzephGuO by joshuaCrewe@fosstodon.org
2022-11-02T16:57:29Z
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@badrihippo @aral This is an interesting conversation. I have been using fosstodon.org to try out the concept but I don't feel good about using resources. I would rather run my own instance.I want something that is as small and light as possible. One docker container setup ideally. gotosocial would be great if it has a web front end.What are the options in terms of hosting your own small instance?
(DIR) Post #APFI8xDXYpsFSyc9Gi by verita_84@pooper.social
2022-11-04T02:09:14.953425Z
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@joshuaCrewe @badrihippo @aral Check out my automated Pleroma setup. Nothing is lightweight as Pleromahttps://git.pooper.social/verita84/pleroma
(DIR) Post #APGEVfXZFCgCdzW9Sa by joshuaCrewe@fosstodon.org
2022-11-04T06:27:03Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@verita_84 Thanks, ill take a lool at that for sure!@aral @badrihippo
(DIR) Post #APKtFh6nQsMTKb9hMu by adamasnemesis@social.adamasnemesis.com
2022-11-06T17:07:21Z
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@aral I'm doing my part; I have my own instance.