Post AOVcgELb29CIxeR98a by mikes@mastodon.sdf.org
(DIR) More posts by mikes@mastodon.sdf.org
(DIR) Post #AOTejYAdbCFou26NZw by sundogplanets@mastodon.social
2022-10-12T02:15:27Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
I'm giving a talk on satellite pollution tomorrow for Olin College (via Zoom). I was just updating the version I gave for the same class in the spring semester. Turns out there are **OVER 1,000 MORE STARLINKS** in orbit now than there were 6 months ago.This is absolutely crazy. I really don't see how we can possibly avoid Kessler Syndrome with one company frantically launching unregulated, high failure-rate satellites as fast as possible.
(DIR) Post #AOUOnio8aWsMwWVMI4 by clacke@libranet.de
2022-10-12T11:09:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sundogplanets Why are they unregulated?
(DIR) Post #AOUOnjL6bxFOalvgg4 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2022-10-12T11:12:06.283397Z
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@clacke @sundogplanets I guess it's "How does one regulates non-territories?"
(DIR) Post #AOUPrvWLMalHU4kbyK by clacke@libranet.de
2022-10-12T11:21:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @sundogplanets The radio spectrum is regulated, as is the moon.
(DIR) Post #AOUPrw3fMhPt9QLDua by hj@shigusegubu.club
2022-10-12T11:24:21.254893Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clacke @sundogplanets @lanodan so if someone launches unregulated satellite we can just blow it to smithereens with a rocket?
(DIR) Post #AOUSOp8yIGH1AedJ7w by clacke@libranet.de
2022-10-12T11:28:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hj @lanodan @sundogplanets What goes up unregulated comes down unregulated.
(DIR) Post #AOUTXL5FWd3uVAW4JM by msh@coales.co
2022-10-12T12:05:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clacke @sundogplanets many industries with high potential liability such as nuclear power generation, mining and oil and gas must comply with regulations not only on the operations themselves but with funds and plans to cover those potental liabilities, including environmental recovery. This includes catastrophic accidents like explosions, restoration of land stripped by mining, recovery of abandoned sites (removal and disposal of old equipment), cleanup of toxic materials etc.To my knowledge SpaceX must comply with a good number of regulations to deliver the Starlink satellites, however Starlink doesn't appear subject to much regulation after that such as if their old units collide with other orbital equipment or the consequences if they de-orbit (they likely burn up into pebbles but if there are thousands of them what is the cumulative effect?) or the interference such a high number of satellites may cause with terrestrial opearations.
(DIR) Post #AOUTsasjz0Bla2ngnY by msh@coales.co
2022-10-12T12:09:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clacke @sundogplanets as to WHY well...perhaps Musk is just moving faster than governments can act as part of the business plan. This would be the same approach taken by Uber...to evade as much regulation as possible by moving very rapidly until their operations are entrenched and application of regulations by that point could be better resisted by lobbyists and a large customer base.
(DIR) Post #AOUzBkCWejTOZ2fN2m by sundogplanets@mastodon.social
2022-10-12T18:00:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@msh @clacke Yeah, there hasn't been a need to regulate thousands of satellites before. And so, no international body exists that does this, and the UN doesn't move nearly as fast as a billionaire-owned business.
(DIR) Post #AOVKmRzZPwG1qGx08e by eric_maechler@mastodon.digitalsuccess.dev
2022-10-12T21:49:12Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sundogplanets fine the company for every collision with 1 billion dollar
(DIR) Post #AOVaya7ccC7jnXWUzI by waterbear@scicomm.xyz
2022-10-12T16:16:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sundogplanets there are more factors involved in Kessler Syndrome (and how long it lasts) than just the number of satellites.As for how long it lasts, if it happens in lower orbits, it'll fix itself in a relatively short period of time due to atmospheric drag
(DIR) Post #AOVayfyypEmByTWgLo by sundogplanets@mastodon.social
2022-10-12T17:55:14Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@waterbear Absolutely - but packing all of the Starlinks into one super dense orbit is a pretty sure-fire way to do it. Also keep in mind that "relatively short" is at least decades. That's a long time to wait to safely use low earth orbit again...This plot is from Lawrence et al. 2022 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.10025.pdf. Starlink is nearly an order of magnitude higher density than any other orbital altitude in human history, and still increasing.
(DIR) Post #AOVayhKzmrysB2pmIy by waterbear@scicomm.xyz
2022-10-12T16:17:56Z
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@sundogplanets I'm not practicing Musk apologetics here BTW. I'm sure he doesn't give a shit about Kessler syndrome (beyond its effects on his own businesses), nor on problems for astronomy, etc.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgELb29CIxeR98a by mikes@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-10-12T13:49:35Z
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@sundogplanets What sorts of issues are we running into with many thousands of small satellites in orbit? I know that there are concerns about it affecting Earth-based space viewing, but can't this be mitigated through timing and software? Genuinely interested in knowing what real-world issues have come up with small satellites like this.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgEmBRISsI6sNZw by logoninternet@mastodon.social
2022-10-12T14:41:25Z
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@mikes @sundogplanets you didn't google Kessler Syndrome did you
(DIR) Post #AOVcgFGfbwqpof8j68 by mikes@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-10-12T14:44:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@logoninternet @sundogplanets That's currently theoretical, though. I was asking about what real-world issues we might be having now. We haven't had these tiny satellites up long enough to see what deorbits/decommissions look like and whether things will actually become dense enough to be problematic. I'm not arguing, just wondering if there's any current issues that they're causing as anything density-related is obviously theoretical since it's not dense right now.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgFmvg0ehQiEUNc by logoninternet@mastodon.social
2022-10-12T15:16:33Z
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@mikes @sundogplanets ok. if that's the line you need to draw.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgGB2ENwCdTVjxA by mikes@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-10-12T15:24:00Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@logoninternet @sundogplanets it’s not really a line… just a question I asked. Please feel free to not answer it. Sorry it bothered you.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgGd2YGL62Kc6bY by logoninternet@mastodon.social
2022-10-12T15:26:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mikes @sundogplanets it bothered me because its the same line people used to dismiss global warming, which is also still largely theoretical. think about it.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgHAiX3HHimN064 by mikes@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-10-12T15:28:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@logoninternet @sundogplanets i haven't dismissed it at all, was just curious about potential issues it's causing right now. i'm all for stopping global warming and space pollution. it wasn't that deep of a question, honestly.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgHgGdkVzId8CH2 by logoninternet@mastodon.social
2022-10-12T15:31:42Z
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@mikes @sundogplanets ah so you were just flirting. my mistake. have a nice day.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgIA2r2Kmmz3ygi by sundogplanets@mastodon.social
2022-10-12T17:57:49Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@logoninternet @mikes Here's an article I wrote: https://theconversation.com/soon-1-out-of-every-15-points-of-light-in-the-sky-will-be-a-satellite-170427Here's a talk that I've given many times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpdPHOAw_UsHere's a peer-reviewed paper I'm a co-author on: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.10025.pdfSO MANY PROBLEMS.
(DIR) Post #AOVcgIZDLST232q4v2 by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-10-13T01:22:38.304431Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
It'll be fiiiiine. When have we ever gone full steam ahead on a technology with unknown ramifications and there turned out to be negative ramifications?That's right, never. Technology is only ever good and anyone who disagrees is just a neo-luddite.Now if you'll excuse me, I have some lead paint infused with DDT and asbestos to spray in my child's room.
(DIR) Post #AOWBitMuz8bnA43lRI by logoninternet@mastodon.social
2022-10-13T06:57:38Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sj_zero personally i love being called a neo-Luddite because i know the original Luddites were about workers rights and labor practices, and not actually anti technology. a badge of honor given out by people who have know idea what that word means, and who ironically think it's an insult.
(DIR) Post #AOXlBCiYKZLSpiNIMy by bsmall2@mstdn.jp
2022-10-14T02:07:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@msh @clacke @sundogplanets And Fukushima DaiIchi showed us that, even when regulated, large scale disasters require public money. It's impossible to cover the costs or recover from some disasters, and I've never heard of share-holders lining up to return their dividends to help clean up nuclear, or mining disasters.