Post ANvbWJFAKEYOKcher2 by amici@snabelen.no
(DIR) More posts by amici@snabelen.no
(DIR) Post #ANtpDuOQzSsR5ZErU8 by amici@snabelen.no
2022-09-24T19:22:43Z
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All #capitalism is violence.The basic premise of capitalism is to deny to others what they need, except when there's a sacrifice to squeeze out.
(DIR) Post #ANtpDunbTt0gLd0xiS by cy@mstdn.io
2022-09-24T19:44:05Z
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@amici That's the basic premise of money. The basic premise of capitalism is first assume you already deny others yadda yadda unless there's a sacrifice. Capitalism is where you defer that sacrifice through debt, and thereby enable slavery, by endebting people more than they can repay.
(DIR) Post #ANtpVSzFcmnVIopcvI by cy@mstdn.io
2022-09-24T19:47:20Z
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@amici I guess it's the basic premise of markets, more like. Squeezing people for cash by holding out on them doesn't strictly require a monetary system. Just subsitute for cash, cattle, cows, female humans who are also livestock, slaves, bags of grain, fresh water, etc.
(DIR) Post #ANtqVbz8Gn5VADPRAW by scroll@mstdn.io
2022-09-24T19:58:35Z
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@cy @amici I loved how you wrote "slaves" but also "female humans who are also livestock". You are basically admitting that women are treated specially in the same situations when men are brutalized. The delicate sex, not to be messed with.
(DIR) Post #ANuAs9Ip4gf5wzdwvo by amici@snabelen.no
2022-09-24T23:46:41Z
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@cy Interesting perspective, although I'm not sure why this particular capitalism/money divide. In some sense I'd rather say other way around. If one knows the history of money, how it arose in Babylon, one would probably think money is the source of debt, while capitalism is the logic of the transaction.
(DIR) Post #ANuG91jSyPg1AJyO5Q by cy@mstdn.io
2022-09-25T00:45:49Z
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@amici Well by my definition, capital *is* debt. The amount which people are in your debt is how much capital you have. I'm taking some liberties in framing employment as the employee going into debt in exchange for a salary, then repaying that debt through labor, but that's a valid interpretation I think.
(DIR) Post #ANvToaOcUa1b6mKTwW by amici@snabelen.no
2022-09-25T14:53:40Z
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@cy But capital is not just about money or financial instruments.A machine. Or a building is also capital. We call that physical capital. Is the physical capital of a machine debt? Sounds strange to say. For money - financial capital - that would be true, particularly following the Babylonian trail. But for physical capital that would be strange. The capital of "intellectual property", which would be "intellectucal capital", also seems strange to call debt.
(DIR) Post #ANvWj1XcxBLjQHa8cy by cy@mstdn.io
2022-09-25T15:26:19Z
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@amici Your claim to their ownership is capital, which is how much money you've given people to let you own it. The workers you also own are what use, carry, possess and operate the machine. And intellectual property is bunk, even by capitalism's standards. When you give me an idea, you still have it. And the cost of an inexhaustible resource is 0. IP is just straight out racketeering.
(DIR) Post #ANvXWJyvBL0Intr5Rw by cy@mstdn.io
2022-09-25T15:35:13Z
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@amici I guess buying a machine isn't quite as bad as a loan. You still expect to be able to collect on your "loan" but unlike loans, you can't call the police when the original buyer won't buy it back from you, and unlike loans you can't charge interest on the money you paid for the machine. Claims of ownership are still like a... loan to society? Like a gold certificate, except it says "They own this factory. Signed officialperson."
(DIR) Post #ANvbWJFAKEYOKcher2 by amici@snabelen.no
2022-09-25T16:20:02Z
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@cy I agree of course, that intellectual property is nonsense, ajd for the reasons you give.But I still find the idea of calling these things (a machine or an IP) for debt not very intuitive. It requires a stretch of the imagination.
(DIR) Post #ANvk6gSYHmRYOPoujw by cy@mstdn.io
2022-09-25T17:56:15Z
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@amici It's not a stretch to consider "the ownership of a machine" to be debt. That's how much the police are obligated to defend you, if someone tries to use it without your permission. Money itself is a bunch of IOUs anyway, and when money is not, it's hard to call that capitalism. Not all trade is capitalism. That includes some forms of monetary exchange.
(DIR) Post #ANvvX9JmiBtevAXdtQ by amici@snabelen.no
2022-09-25T20:04:15Z
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@cy All trade intended for profit is capitalism, anything else is, well, something else. Maybe part of some honor-system, or it's not really trade, just a mislabeling of mutual support where the values exchanged are irrelevant, but the needs that inspire the exchange are not.
(DIR) Post #ANw0GATVenBnMBoQlM by cy@mstdn.io
2022-09-25T20:57:15Z
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@amici And profit isn't debt? Seems like it is to me. Workers pay for it out of their paycheck every month.
(DIR) Post #ANw1Ck3BXwCeUJQgym by amici@snabelen.no
2022-09-25T21:07:49Z
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@cy Marxists would just say it's (normalized) theft, not debt. But here the terms start to get a little fuzzy, because using a particular lens, you could of course claim that theft is a kind of unsanctioned debt.
(DIR) Post #ANw9RBuxX4JKbWz008 by cy@mstdn.io
2022-09-25T22:40:05Z
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@amici I don't want to get piccayunish or anything. Honestly I think we're both wrong, and capital is only private ownership of the means of production which is machines, factories, workers, and finances/debt. It's not just debt, and it's not trade in general, nor even profit in general. But the pro-capitalism commercial investment brokers claiming that are probably so full of shit you couldn't even sell it as an NFT, so I dunno.
(DIR) Post #ANwDRmM8SHadQsEK5A by amici@snabelen.no
2022-09-25T23:24:59Z
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@cy "so full of shit you couldn't even sell it as an NFT" that sub-sentence made me laugh, nicely put 😂