Post ANAPoOLrKjV0DHZyPg by lxo@gnusocial.net
(DIR) More posts by lxo@gnusocial.net
(DIR) Post #ANAPDyfHMJMw7dIbC4 by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-08-31T15:56:38Z
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I hear you. I'm not involved with Guix myself, but it got me wondering... with such fondness for GUIs, that are the focus of most other distros, what is it about Guix that makes you apparently so interested in it?
(DIR) Post #ANAPDzA7Ve2TfHjEGW by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-08-31T16:05:12Z
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@lxo Its features. Since the day I realized that debian will update any part of the distro - but not its package system - I was looking for alternatives. GUIX is astonishing, AND it seems to have strong roots with software freedom – I'd love to use it and see a distribution growing around it.But its absolute dependency on the CLI makes it a no-go.
(DIR) Post #ANAPDzZzxQjsxXptbM by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-08-31T20:45:22Z
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thanks for your perspective. I value diversity, and I think it would be valuable for different distros focus on widly different use cases and issues, rather than competing for the same kind of target users. I wouldn't like the free software distro scene to become like TV, in which there are tens if not hundreds of channels, and tens if not hundreds of (say) sports matches to show on a given evening, and 99% of them choose to show the same match.still, when it comes to software freedom, we shall keep in mind the notion that we're building and sharing gifts. communities often accept contributions, even when they're not their primary focus, but sometimes contributions would go against what the community values and get rejected. that's unfortunate, but not the end: with software freedom, that still enables the contributor to take the gift and adapt it to their own liking, perhaps forming another community around it
(DIR) Post #ANAPE01IJwZcKCbh9E by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-01T09:54:03Z
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@lxo I think what makes this case interesting is that there is no clear statement that GUIX sees no value in supporting GUI users. I had to figure it out by waiting and seeing no progress of any kind for a long period of time.Now I start to understand how deep and serious the disconnect of GUI needs is in GUIX.It makes me sad to see another great software not caring about me. Seems like developers scratch their own itches. (Just like git.)Maybe in 10 years things look different. 🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #ANAPE0Pkr08hY43EH2 by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-01T17:10:01Z
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maybe it doesn't really have that stance, it's just missing volunteers to do the work it takes. that's often how it is with free software: if you want it done and nobody else steps up, either you do (doing it yourself or motivating/hiring someone else to do it for you) or it doesn't get done
(DIR) Post #ANAPEuFPGf8UiBdkv2 by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-01T18:27:35Z
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@lxo If it had such a stance – the situation would not be like this after 10 years.Maybe my complaining in the name of humanity (except the CLI users) will have an effect.As long as the expectation is: "those who want it – can code it themselves…", there will only be slow progress.
(DIR) Post #ANAPEulJM2emJ8ZEeG by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-02T10:11:53Z
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now, do realize that a lot of people working on free software are working in big corporations' payrolls. most of the big corps have realized the benefit of software freedom, and are using it to their own advantage.meanwhile, most users remain prisoners of proprietary software, either because it's forced onto them by the computer monopoly, or because it's offered to them gratis, as a service, over the internet. both are ultimately paid for, some by the users themselves as part of the computer purchase, others by the data and attention that is collected and sold to advertisers or worse. software that respects users' freedom doesn't suit such user-controlling business models, so users who wish freedom have to realize that, if they're not actively participating in funding and in decisions, either they expect slave labor, or they're paying for the ticket anyway, even without realizing, and not getting a say in the destination. so please do get involved, take control of your computing
(DIR) Post #ANAPoN3O9v88Bhvhz6 by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-02T14:40:31Z
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@lxo You don't know what it means to get involved without coding skills.I'm a designer and any contribution I can ever offer will have to be realized by somebody with coding skills. I'm useless and lost without a coding community that integrates design perspectives into their workflow.Ever heard the phrase "MR welcome"? I hate it.Corporations value design much more, and it certainly benefits them. Free Software is held back in that regard. GUIs and all that are just "eye-candy" - right?…
(DIR) Post #ANAPoNR8jc83NN2g0O by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-02T15:57:43Z
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I don't know exactly what it's like, indeed, but every big project grows its own languages, which becomes a challenge that needs to be overcome by every new contributor, so I can relatein contrast, I've met at least two artists who claim no previous coding skills who set out to run their own distros, and ended up learning some command line and then shell scripting to automate the various tasks involved in it. I have no doubt you'd be able to do that too, if you decide to pursue itnow, maybe you'd prefer to focus your contributions on design. maybe you can follow @mairin's example and advice. she's also a designer, and she's made significant contributions to free software, both as a designer and as an activist. https://blog.linuxgrrl.com/personally, I see GUIs as useful for occasional and exploratory uses, but once you learn a tool and become proficient at a task, you can get more out of it through automation and scripting, at which I feel GUIs are lacking
(DIR) Post #ANAPoNy6l2V51cT0OO by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-02T19:02:46Z
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@lxo See that is the problem: you think motivating me to learn the CLI is a thing I can hope for. (I DON'T WANT TO!) And you think GUIs are for occasional and exploratory use.Don't you get it? Humanity has settled on GUIs. Long time ago. Some hackers don't. Fine.I guess there are benefits to all kind of things like learning assembler or compiling your own kernel. But I don't want to! As long as CLI-people remain among themselves, reality happens outside.
(DIR) Post #ANAPoOLrKjV0DHZyPg by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-02T19:44:42Z
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see?, you don't wish to do my bidding either. that's fine.what I've told you about GUIs is not just personal opinion. there's science behind shortcuts and scripting and automation, even for GUIs, and expert users in tools that offer both interaction modes (point-and-click and scripting) tend to progressively adopt the latter, because it's a lot more efficient.software exploiters have settled on GUIs, yeah. users hardly ever have a choice. when they do, they start with GUIs, but advance to programmable interfaces, even when they're not programmers to begin with, they're just "using what's available" to be more efficientbut you don't want that, and that's fine. you can follow the steps of other designers who've successfully collaborated with free software, or you can find your own path; join existing communities or start new ones who share your thoughts. just don't expect others to do your bidding just because you want it really bad
(DIR) Post #ANAPoOljmWCPVXgdkW by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-02T20:31:01Z
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@lxo I see:GUIs are less efficient. Science says so!And experts progressively always adopt CLI anyway.GUIs are exploiters tools, tempting the users that "fall" for inefficiency.GUIs are just evil. And you know it.Most people disagree, but who cares?This mentality is like asking wheelchair users to build the ramps they need by themselves. Cause you like stairs, and you build entrances the way you want.If this is how people come together it's no wonder why we see only slow progress.
(DIR) Post #ANAPoPBGFccEmhd1X6 by w96k@fosstodon.org
2022-09-02T21:57:20Z
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@mray @lxo GUI is just harder to do. It is like additional work that can be done very poorly, so many prefer to focus only on programming part with interface via CLI or something like that. GUI is very complex to program and maintain properly.
(DIR) Post #ANAVLbSK8HHOBNG6Fs by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-02T10:03:22Z
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complaining really isn't likely to be a useful contribution. it assumes people are unaware of an issue, and if only someone tells them about it, they'll jump at it because they have nothing better to do with their own time. more often, it ends up getting people to do the opposite of what you demand. the best way to influence is to put effort into it and invite others to join/correct/improve on what you've done. if you can't do it yourself, consider funding someone to do it on your behalf, but don't expect others to do something just because you ask them to. they might, if you ask nicely and they have nothing they want better to do, but it's not like they're working for you, we are all busy trying to solve problems we find important and interesting. you have to seduce them one way or another
(DIR) Post #ANDYxQweXgzXvO3UIa by r_libre@social.linux.pizza
2022-09-02T23:13:46Z
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@lxo @mray There is a CLI running under the hood of any GUI, any button or element of GUI are just commands running in the background. Why Use The Terminal Instead of GUI Apps? [DistroTube - Youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFZyKDix65g
(DIR) Post #ANDYxRvyrg32zakStE by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-02T23:31:34Z
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@r_libre @lxo Not sure If you are aware that your post and that video proves my point.
(DIR) Post #ANDYxSNzBYRwORqpXc by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-03T02:34:44Z
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if only it was like the summary. alas, most GUIs aren't like that. I've long proposed they should be, but that's just me; not being a GUI developer, I haven't been able to follow my own advice and lead by example. I'm not sure what your point is that it proves; I haven't watched the video (I have a hard time watching videos), but maybe you'd like to summarize what that point is?
(DIR) Post #ANDYxSsTMCptv07B3o by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-03T10:24:00Z
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@lxo Instead of just accepting that GUI vs CLI is a settled thing (the VAST majority does not use CLI) you fail to address the lack of cooperation on creating solutions for the rest of us on the "other" side, and instead prefer to lecture about the supposed superior effectivity you experience while doing your CLI computing.I don't need to be lectured how and why I should use the CLI. You need to see the big problem you leave behind when ignoring the people that just won't use the CLI.
(DIR) Post #ANDYxTLtaoN7OFsfvE by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-03T14:39:32Z
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erhm... it looks like in your jihad against CLI you mistake "automation" and "scriptability" for CLI. my points weren't about CLI at all. GUIs could and should be scriptable, there have been examples of scriptable GUIs, it would be important even for testability that they be more scriptable, and it would very useful for proficient users that they be automatable. the best examples of GUIs are not only scriptable and automatable, they have a soft learning curve that help users gain proficiency and efficiency without getting in the way of those who're getting started or only using the tool occasionally. can you see how that can be useful and valuable for users, or do you really believe point-and-click must be the end of it, the only way to get things done?
(DIR) Post #ANDYxTrngBtOzCo9eS by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-03T19:43:17Z
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@lxo We will keep talking past each other unless we address the same issue: Problems of GUI users in a world created by CLI users.Neither do I care which is "better" - or in what cases it is better.Neither do I care how GUIs are created – or how easy it can be to do so.I just note, that by making the use of CLI mandatory, you ask the vast majority of humans to jump through hoops they can't take.You don't see this as a problem but a welcome occasion to advertise CLI use.
(DIR) Post #ANDYxUO3kFhGbFtuvw by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-03T20:20:52Z
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you appear to be mistaking me for someone who is involved with Guix, though I claimed early on I wasn't, or for someone who defends its alleged disregard for GUIs. to me, the disregard is not a given, but if it's there, I defend their freedom to develop the software so that it does what they wish, and I encourage you to participate and contribute if you wish to influence its development, or to fork it and form a community that shares your preferences if you find the existing community to not share them with you. since you like GUIs, I also encourage you, in your designer and contirbutor role, to enable their automation and scripting. you don't seem to be disagreeing with me, you seem to be venting at me your frustration that someone else isn't taking your commands, isn't bowing to your demands. good for them!, I say.now, if you wish to talk about any of the points I mentioned herein, feel free, but please keep me out of your quest against CLI, I'm really not interested. as for Guix, I might be interested in helping out if you were interested in contributing, rather than just complaining, but it has become clear by now that this is not the case, and that my advice is going to waste. hopefully others may benefit from it. have a good life.
(DIR) Post #ANDZ18z5GJb9NWxg1I by mray@social.tchncs.de
2022-09-03T21:02:14Z
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@lxo Your take-away is to congratulate people to not 'bow to my demands'…Demands like: "Hey guys, can we agree it is a problem that your software is only usable by a small group with a certain skill?" have a good life.
(DIR) Post #ANDZ19NBogseaIEvaq by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-09-03T21:21:14Z
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congratulate is pushing it past the breaking point, but yeah, they are not required to bow to your demands, especially if they don't agree with the premise behind them, whether I agree with you, with them, or with neither. do you really think others must serve you and your notions of how software should behave, and do so WRT every piece of software they develop, or am I taking your stance too far?