Post AMemjM6QfTk9j1nxGC by elplatt@greatjustice.net
(DIR) More posts by elplatt@greatjustice.net
(DIR) Post #AMdwNspN7cI5ETGZyS by Zee@social.coop
2022-06-16T04:08:01Z
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Mel Conway, author of Conway's Law, put together a nice thread that I think is a strong argument for #DataCooperatives and #PlatformCooperativeshttps://twitter.com/conways_law/status/1536754984078958593> "Every so often there will be a burst of Twitter conversations on the “Reverse Conway Manoeuver” and related topics.I find this encouraging, but not for a reason you might suspect....Of course we don’t have the foggiest idea how to go about doing this. (Or how to obtain support to do it.)"#Cooperatives #Coop
(DIR) Post #AMdwNtPWxBDL2cBSKm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-18T05:56:38Z
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@Zee Good to be reminded of what Conway's Law is. It makes me wonder about the consequences of open source projects trying to design general purpose tools (eg a CMS) useful in both corporations and cooperatives. I can see benefits in broadly sharing development of generic building blocks (eg OS kernel). But maybe co-ops need to form their own software commons to develop end-user tools specific to democratic communicate structures?
(DIR) Post #AMdweGRP5yo96Lrmfg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-18T05:57:02Z
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@Zee Good to be reminded of what Conway's Law is. It makes me wonder about the consequences of open source projects trying to design general purpose tools (eg a CMS) useful in both corporations and cooperatives. I can see benefits in broadly sharing development of generic building blocks (eg OS kernel). But maybe co-ops need to form their own software commons to develop end-user tools specific to democratic communicate structures?#cooperatives
(DIR) Post #AMemjM6QfTk9j1nxGC by elplatt@greatjustice.net
2022-08-18T15:42:57Z
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@strypey @Zee this was the idea behind the Seltzer CRM project. It was so much work keeping the community from forking, but it was worth it when I had the capacity to put that work in.
(DIR) Post #AMf3o26GACYiMAXdpo by Zee@social.coop
2022-08-18T18:54:25Z
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@strypey This is why I #ZincCoop uses a highly permissive proprietary license that we grant no-questions-asked to organizations that are structured as worker #cooperatives; as verified via a regional #Cooperative network.The Cooperative commons (or #CoopSource) is distinct from #OpenSource and #FreeSoftware, and I don't really ascribe to either OSS/FS principles due to their lack of grappling with power dynamics.
(DIR) Post #AMfXFLqbIvIGQOB2TA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-19T00:24:28Z
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@ZeeIf a co-op run project builds on existing free code building blocks, most of the dev cost is already shared with the broader software commons. If the purpose of the project is to develop a UI for the specific needs of democratic orgs, it's not going to be of much interest to corporations etc. I'm not convinced that making the resulting software proprietary is necessary or helpful.
(DIR) Post #AMfXx0oOsIz9vSy0Mi by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-19T00:32:21Z
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@Zee The main downside I see in a proprietary codebase - however permissive - is that it prevents forking, creating all sorts of risks. It prevents subgroups of the dev community taking the code in different directions if they disagree with the priorities of the copyright owner. It makes it harder for them to continue the project if the copyright owner goes AWOL or decides to shut down the project. It makes the ownership of the copyright a target for bad actors who want to hijack the project.
(DIR) Post #AMfYc7pxeznzaSIkBk by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-19T00:39:47Z
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@Zee Imagine a situation like what happened with the Koha library software. A bad actors bought up companies selling commercial support for Koha and tried to take over the project. Because the code was under a free license, the dev community, and the libraries not buying support from the hijackers, were able to fork and continue development as a not-for-profit community effort. But if the code had been proprietary, and the bad actors had managed to buy all the copyright ...
(DIR) Post #AMfZK11OMUifBrZnH6 by bhaugen@social.coop
2022-08-18T19:36:53Z
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@Zee How/where can I learn more about how your Cooperative Commons works? What's the best intro for getting started on understanding?Something like this? https://opencollective.com/zinc-community/updates/q2-2022-update@strypey
(DIR) Post #AMfZK1ZQJxwQtPUyJs by zeh@mstdn.io
2022-08-19T00:27:25Z
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@bhaugen @Zee @strypey Good discussion, following. Not sure from your comments that you are all aware of the analysis and critique of F/OSS, specifically the power imbalance of capitalist companies use of the commons, by Kleiner and Telekommunisten, that then resulted in the Peer Production License. Highly recommended:https://telekommunisten.net/the-telekommunist-manifesto/https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Peer_Production_License
(DIR) Post #AMfZK28sCAIWfM5HZg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-19T00:47:39Z
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@zehI'm familiar with this analysis. IMHO it's based on a strawman version of the way free code software works. Eg it fails to take into account the ways the commons benefits from code contributions made by people in their Big Tech days jobs (eg Linux kernel dev). As well as the various ways that libre licensing decentralizes control over code and its developing, protecting devs and users from abandonware and project hijacks. See my replies to @Zee comments on licensing upthread.@bhaugen
(DIR) Post #AMlkumu6DbwasmiZpw by Zee@social.coop
2022-08-22T00:25:47Z
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@strypey hmm, our licensing strategy is highly fork positive, because any individual human or cooperative can fork in perpetuity.
(DIR) Post #AMrfVfqvxn2ox6Cc9Q by zeh@mstdn.io
2022-08-24T20:53:28Z
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@strypey @Zee @bhaugen (sorry, have been away and offline)This text analyzes power and control dynamics in commons (of which FOSS is an instance), claiming that capitalist orgs can always benefit more from it, because it has more resources to mobilize for those extraction processes (human work, machines and infrastructure, etc). For these claims, it doesn't need to refer to any of the points that you raise (which would be lateral and minor).
(DIR) Post #AMuIFSuqa08giyDNDc by zeh@mstdn.io
2022-08-24T21:05:44Z
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@strypey @Zee @bhaugen That focus on power and control was also the reason why i linked it here, as it tries to think of how worker #coops could structure and what licenses they should use. They conclude that FOSS is inadequate bc it grants use of the commons to capitalist companies that exploit it while sidelining workers and worker orgs. Hence, they propose licenses that establish a commons for worker use, only allowing access to capitalist companies when they pay for it.
(DIR) Post #AMuIFTPgjKoEGce0I4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-26T03:17:04Z
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@zeh > they propose licenses that establish a commons for worker use, only allowing access to capitalist companies when they pay for it.Perhaps I need to have another look, but from memory, they don't account for the extra admin and legal burdens added by proprietary licenses. Eg anyone wanting to use code under proprietary licenses has to either make sure they meet each copyright holder's conditions of use, or risk of getting sued out of existence down the line.@Zee @bhaugen
(DIR) Post #AMuIu4tqm9Ue7378Fc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-26T03:24:24Z
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@zeh In theory, any individual or co-op can use the code freely. But a copyright license is a kind of legal contract, which people agree to by using the code, so "individual" and "cooperative" need specific legal definitions in the license. Users are taking a legal risk if they don't get a lawyer to check they meet the conditions when they start using the code, and again if anything about their situation changes. Common free code licenses don't create this added legal burden.@Zee @bhaugen
(DIR) Post #AMuLsYtIb9JOPapCNs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-26T03:57:45Z
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@zeh This is just one unintended consequence of switching away from free licenses. A number of other criticisms are raised on the P2P wiki page you linked, none of which have been adequately addressed IMHO. @Zee @bhaugen
(DIR) Post #AMucXAeNEC7oN0EHbM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-08-26T07:04:19Z
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@zeh You can compare it the theory that means- testing of welfare payments means more of the welfare budget goes to the most in need. In practice, means-testing excludes them disproportionately (lack of literacy, ID etc), and redirects welfare spending into surveillance and persecution, while significantly increasing the overall public spend on the welfare system.@Zee @bhaugen
(DIR) Post #AMvdZKlSt7mZQl6M9w by zeh@mstdn.io
2022-08-26T18:50:19Z
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@strypey @Zee @bhaugen Sure. There are a lot of costs to doing business in capitalist markets and legal risks and enforcement is a big one, instrumental to keep workers out. Overcoming these practical issues is terribly hard (and one of the reasons that cooperatives disappear), but what else can we do? We have to deal with markets for now, let's do it together. Find ways to face the difficulties together and in parallel build direct relationships between workers and our orgs, on our own terms.