Post AMeblNKvx6CodTLkES by whoisrbkn@fosstodon.org
 (DIR) More posts by whoisrbkn@fosstodon.org
 (DIR) Post #AMebW8vnEHBfc8KKzA by urusan@fosstodon.org
       2022-08-18T13:37:44Z
       
       0 likes, 1 repeats
       
       Do you value freedom or positive outcomes more?Obviously both are preferable, so this is for situations where there's a conflict between the two, so a tradeoff has to be made.
       
 (DIR) Post #AMeblNKvx6CodTLkES by whoisrbkn@fosstodon.org
       2022-08-18T13:40:33Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @urusan 50/50 😂
       
 (DIR) Post #AMecQ9eVjbxW4Fx4im by sotolf@social.linux.pizza
       2022-08-18T13:47:54Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @urusan It will be interesting to see if this tips over the other way as the americans wake up ;)
       
 (DIR) Post #AMedzcUAcpKfa8ae5A by urusan@fosstodon.org
       2022-08-18T14:05:32Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @whoisrbkn Surely when push comes to shove, you'd prefer one or the other at least a little bit.
       
 (DIR) Post #AMee1QsUklL2A0peXw by urusan@fosstodon.org
       2022-08-18T14:05:47Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @whoisrbkn You are a researcher in an experiment that's trying to find out if researchers prefer freedom or outcomes. A subject is in a room with a big red button, that will painfully shock the subject if they press it. The subject knows this. Left to their own devices, there's about a 50% chance their curiosity will overcome their good sense and they'll press it. You have the option to step in and prevent them from pressing the button. What do you do?
       
 (DIR) Post #AMeeNLNdsF9XTrqhdI by whoisrbkn@fosstodon.org
       2022-08-18T14:09:48Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @urusan there's actually a psychological experiment ålike this. The room is empty and because the subject is bored he will inevitably press the button even if he knows it will give an electrical shock. It's human nature and it's why I believe we need AI to take those decision for us.
       
 (DIR) Post #AMef8zCncfh8bfUkqm by chiasm@mastodon.online
       2022-08-18T14:18:21Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @urusan @whoisrbkn Yes, but that experiment is not quite the same question as "Should the government force people to wear masks to prevent COVID?" Usually I lean toward free will now/outcomes later, but in some cases I'm all about outcomes now, free will later.  So it's all context dependent, not absolute.
       
 (DIR) Post #AMegqOMg3ZZx2jNQ24 by urusan@fosstodon.org
       2022-08-18T14:37:28Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @chiasm @whoisrbkn Yeah, that's why this is a POL question. It's basically impossible to isolate just these two values, especially in the real world.Though I would say the real issue is that other values (as well as sub-components of these larger values) get in the mix.Also, in real examples there's questions about whether a particular measure would actually be effective (and often what good outcomes even are).Regardless, different people do value these two differently.
       
 (DIR) Post #AMeoGtUfdrTenPhRrc by Azure@tailswish.industries
       2022-08-18T16:00:42.509649Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @urusan I think this CAN be in many cases a false dichotomy.Or, put another way, I view the definition of freedom as 'lack of de jure restriction' to be completely bogus.The freedom to be secure in ones home doesn't really exist of 'having a home' is beyond the reach of some people.Freedom of expression doesn't really exist if people can't get a medium or venue in which to express themselves.Freedom to make your own way in life and pursue self determination doesn't really exist if you're given the choice of "Scrub toilets for poor wages in bad conditions or starve." with no chance to get an education, develop skills, or even just step back and try to find better work.There's also something about raising the floor of wellbeing that people can attain. If trying something creates a huge risk of, effectively, ruining your life, then it's not really an option you're free to try in a meaningful way.I don't think this means we need to plot out everyone's life, but it does mean that if we're going to take the idea of freedom seriously, there's a limit to exactly how bad reasonable outcomes can be.You sort of need a good bit of slack in the system to allow people to explore, discover their idea of 'the good', and pursue it.
       
 (DIR) Post #AMfDgiJPtHKIpjQREG by HappyHeathen@kolektiva.social
       2022-08-18T20:45:29Z
       
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       @urusan I suppose that a rational answer is dependent upon context, particularly individual versus community consequences. I voted for outcomes because I intuit that you intend to address the consequences of individual freedom borne by the community.