Post AMKRE28kYZMuy2DHV2 by yogthos@mas.to
(DIR) More posts by yogthos@mas.to
(DIR) Post #AME9Q2z8HEhgwIXArg by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-05T13:19:23Z
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(DIR) Post #AME9Q3Ze5TuWlXcKmG by tommy@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-05T15:35:59Z
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@yogthos 🤮 because the ussr wasn't bloody as fuck?!
(DIR) Post #AME9Q420O2b0BUsyyu by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-05T17:41:06Z
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@tommy sure was better than the capitalist alternatives
(DIR) Post #AME9Q4QSv6A5PMKW6i by tommy@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-05T17:50:36Z
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@yogthos pretty much one dimensional thinking.
(DIR) Post #AME9Q4mna41gWcmLuy by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-05T18:09:40Z
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@tommy it's not, USSR managed to provide food, housing, education, jobs, and healthcare for its entire population. Nobody worried about losing their job and ending on the street or not being able to retire in dignity.These are things western countries still aren't able to provide for their people. And of course, if we look at the state of things in post USSR republics it's pretty clear things got worse across the board.
(DIR) Post #AME9Q57iKIkxZUZ3WC by tommy@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-05T18:15:26Z
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@yogthos what about dissidents? the starvation crisis to transform the country to an industrialized country? nothing against communism but against dictatorship and authoritarianism
(DIR) Post #AME9Q5dcPgHFARUXFQ by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-05T18:20:34Z
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@tommy I'm comparing it to the alternatives available in the real world as opposed to some Utopian fantasy anarchists keep pining for without showing any way to get there.Nobody is claiming USSR was perfect in any way, but it did improve lives for millions of people while it existed.It also continued to become more egalitarian throughout its existence. USSR of the late 80s was nothing like USSR in the 50s.Meanwhile, here' what capitalism gets youhttp://horizons-newspaper.com/index.php/2020/02/27/tallying-capitalisms-death-toll/
(DIR) Post #AME9Q62QvQ7uPP6LvU by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-05T18:21:14Z
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@tommy a bit ironic that you're the one accusing me of one dimensional thinking here while being unable to comprehend that USSR was a net positive for humanity despite being flawed
(DIR) Post #AME9Q6QXTnPPcANbV2 by tommy@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-05T18:27:28Z
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@yogthos "net positive" is quite one dimensional. You can only decide on a one dimensional scale if something was positive or not.
(DIR) Post #AME9Q6ufflVn7cTfSy by popolon@pleroma.popolon.org
2022-08-05T19:20:25.877484Z
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@tommy @yogthos not sure you can have positive/négative direction on all axis of a multidimensional space, and can be positive on all axis or on the mean of all the axis values.
(DIR) Post #AMEEPzU3nHFnqqnCvA by Arkana@freespeechextremist.com
2022-08-05T20:16:31.648168Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@yogthosBE529EEFD64981511FF404C17F866DC0-156824.jpg
(DIR) Post #AMHdSWlK7JGjyD3NoG by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:27:41Z
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@popolon @tommy my view is that you have to identity tangible goals and then measure whether a particular society is moving towards achieving these goals. For example, we can ask whether material conditions are improving, and then see if there's a positive trajectory.
(DIR) Post #AMHm45Vsfy4G61Ff28 by ybaumy@mk.autonomy.earth
2022-08-05T18:17:53.309Z
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@tommy@mastodon.oi7.de sorry to get into this .. but was not anarcho-syndicalism always thought to bridge the gab between communism, which for is collectivism, and anarchism? @yogthos@mas.to
(DIR) Post #AMHm45wT57KpQTgtTU by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-05T18:23:36Z
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@ybaumy @tommy the problem with anarchism isn't with its ideals, it's with the fact that it provides no workable path to get to them from where we are today.Anarchism is like a roach motel for leftists that diverts people away from methods that actually have been proven to work in practice with a promise of utopia it offers no way of achieving.
(DIR) Post #AMHm46J9ilU0YqJ0q0 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T17:47:38Z
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@yogthos what exactly has "proven to work"? Anarchism is as workable/ utopian as communism.
(DIR) Post #AMHm46igBrtpq0FOca by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:21:54Z
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@luna communists aren't preaching utopian communism. What communists offer is a tangible improvement over capitalism. MLs understand that communism is a goal that should be worked towards, and provide a clear and workable strategy for getting the ball rolling.
(DIR) Post #AMHm475ioCKazT1nXM by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:26:33Z
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@yogthos yeah and what are anarcho-syndikalists doing e.g.? Working today towards anarchy. Moreover, what is that way, how does it work? please specify. Are ppl getting detained? forced to work? poor? not alloed to study? or not?
(DIR) Post #AMHm47UXJwBGEQdcDQ by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:30:51Z
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@luna whatever the anarcho-syndikalists are doing clearly failed to translate into tangible results. As far as I can tell, the only thing anarcho-syndikalists are succeeding at is pulling people away from methods that actually result in positive change. This effectively amounts to propping up the status quo.
(DIR) Post #AMHm47vpgS0zb5PPlI by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:32:05Z
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@yogthos ugh, you could say that then as well about authoritarian communists. same standards please.
(DIR) Post #AMHm48Li8EiOtLW568 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:34:20Z
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@luna "authoritarian" communists gave us actual working socialist societies that improved the lives of countless millions of people in tangible ways by increasing life expectancy, providing them with food, housing, education, jobs, and other necessities. Communists have also liberated people of Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, Nicaragua and China from western colonizers.
(DIR) Post #AMHm48ZXIpm3aDz7eC by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:26:58Z
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@yogthos so basically: is it authoritarian from top down?
(DIR) Post #AMHm48j6jFQk3uSlZA by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:36:37Z
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@yogthos Actually, it wasnt that good for many ppl. Like, being under surveillance, being persecuted for being in opposition (anarchists, other communists etc tec). and as I said, think about Jews, queer ppl and other minorities!glorifying gets us no where.
(DIR) Post #AMHm499h8OhJOMu00W by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:40:17Z
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@luna nobody is glorifying anything. What's being said is that this is a tangible improvement over the capitalist status quo for the majority of people.These societies also provide a path forward towards an egalitarian society that capitalism does not.Until anarchists can show a workable approach towards combating capitalism then approaches that have been shown to work need to be taken.
(DIR) Post #AMHm49Y9fSGOcELX8K by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:44:43Z
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@yogthos I do not see how the USSR or GDR would have done such a thing at least since the 60s
(DIR) Post #AMHm49xK9sOdsI7dMe by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:46:22Z
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@luna I grew up in USSR and it's unarguable to me that it did achieve those things. In fact, if you look at the history of USSR, it continuously became a more free and egalitarian society each and every decade.We can only wonder how much USSR would've been able to achieve if it did not exist under the threat of capitalist aggression throughout its whole existence.We can also see how much worse things are in post Soviet block now.
(DIR) Post #AMHm4AOGXhwnDqj9MG by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:46:59Z
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@yogthos like GDR it was very much not free.
(DIR) Post #AMHm4ArKndCQg0KMfQ by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:47:48Z
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@luna weird how lots of people from former GDR preferred it to the capitalist hell they get to live in today https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html
(DIR) Post #AMHm4BE1RHLboMwU1w by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:50:23Z
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@yogthos it is not about capitalsim. we discussed authoritarian communism.
(DIR) Post #AMHm4BcTyKuh2EO19k by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:51:08Z
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@yogthos i dont want capitalsim. but I sure do not want the GDR. My family lived there, I was born after, And no, the were unfree, under surveillance...
(DIR) Post #AMHm4C3QMASqNmzX9M by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:51:27Z
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@luna if you have no way to achieve what you want then you're just selling meaningless fantasies that pull people away from real action that achieves results
(DIR) Post #AMHm4CRWuXkLaYGmiu by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:53:15Z
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@yogthos you know that only with GB, France and the USA fascism was beaten right? so, what oes this now mean to your argument. THe USSR what not have done it alone.
(DIR) Post #AMHm4CovVYSgl7DTBw by popolon@pleroma.popolon.org
2022-08-07T13:17:33.002990Z
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@luna @yogthos Where is fascism beaten ??? Fascists are still in governement, In France, USA and UK.
(DIR) Post #AMHmwHqd237JzMnfrE by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:18:14Z
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@popolon and in Russia.
(DIR) Post #AMHmwIIHNFEdN7jkxM by popolon@pleroma.popolon.org
2022-08-07T13:27:25.611973Z
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@luna Russia is not communist. I personnaly live in France and see the fascists that have the majority in national assembly (parliament), with minorities and poor people having more taxes than billionaires, lot of migrant working without basic rights, deplanification of ecologic path and socialist path since 20 years. The socialism in France was made by communists at the end of the WWII.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDbVVZqWwMneZiy by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:51:03Z
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@luna no, we're discussing real world options that societies have today. Capitalism is the status quo and "authoritarian" communists provide a path away from it. Anarchists do not.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDbuK5aNbblGOP2 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:52:02Z
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@yogthos ok. then I would have rather this than having to live in the GDR.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDcJUa0Vqrp2UdM by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:53:30Z
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@luna of course you would, anarchism is just an intellectual exercise for you because you're perfectly happy with capitalism and all the suffering it causes for others. This is the truth for pretty much every anarchists I've interacted with.Anarchism is the ideology that's pretty much exclusive to rich westerners who enjoy the benefits of the global exploitation that props up their lifestyles.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDcePKFF7ugpCEa by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:55:26Z
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@yogthos bullshit. stop deflecting and derailing please. I would, because I would nearly have been born into a state that wouldnt let me go abroad. that possibly would not have let me study (cause I would not have done Army duty on the boarder aka possibly shooting ppl)
(DIR) Post #AMKRDd2VscWd7S6Ro8 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:56:30Z
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@yogthos A state that would have watched me constantly. A state where I could not have said anything critical. Yeah, I am glad it did not happen to me.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDdPuTdEyI138HA by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T18:57:38Z
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@yogthos And, to get that straight, I am NOT SAYING the German state today is good. It isnt. But I can voice my opinion. I can belong to a minority. I can leave.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDdoizN5dWyewxE by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T18:58:31Z
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@luna that's cause your opinion doesn't threaten the state, people like Assange who do end up being disappeared and tortured
(DIR) Post #AMKRDeBlbhWOgRRLs0 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:00:03Z
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@yogthos uff, lets not go to this person. but yeah. of course I said it is shit. BUT in the GDR I could not even have said I dont like the party.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDedPwtdi4CNQy8 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:01:19Z
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@luna let's take a look at what George Lucas has to say on the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqvaMEFIdI
(DIR) Post #AMKRDf3eNMchNYeNrE by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:02:04Z
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@yogthos why should I be interested in Lucas?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDfTAqT2Weialdo by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:03:10Z
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@luna watch the one minute clip and see what he says about freedoms
(DIR) Post #AMKRDfqDSnTHoBNAYa by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:06:27Z
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@luna however, the argument you're making is fundamentally flawed. You're trying to argue that a communist society built on ML principles is necessarily restrictive in terms of human rights.However, it's clear that this is based on survivorship bias because egalitarian socialist experiments end up being eradicated by global capitalism.This will be the case until global capitalism is overthrown.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDgDc3oBcykJr1c by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:08:28Z
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@yogthos well, I think yours has several flaws and double standards.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDgaIhSKo76vyO8 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:08:55Z
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@luna please do elaborate on what specifically you think these are
(DIR) Post #AMKRDgvvP3dFCB3F5s by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:13:27Z
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@yogthos You do not address the surveillance, discrimination of minorities. You do not addres, that I would not have been allowed to leave the GDR. You do not address that I would probably not have been allowed to study (army duty). You do not address shooting ppl for leaving the country. You do not care about power to all and not top-down. you do not address free elections. you do not acknowlegde that the limits (what you could say and how you could organize) you are talking about were far lower in GDR and USSR
(DIR) Post #AMKRDhM9pWcEVXKByy by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:15:22Z
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@luna all of these things are currently happening under capitalism, and often in far worse ways than they ever happened in USSR.You also do not have any free elections. It's pretty clear that your governments work in the interests of the capitalist class and continue to exploit the workers.Meanwhile, I completely acknowledge the limits of USSR and I even explained that those were the only ways USSR could survive. Again, look up survivorship bias.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDhgMcOmLWCmKTg by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:17:51Z
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@yogthos you do not acknowledge that I would have been persecuted for thing I can now do.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDi3PEjD6ffYjOS by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:21:28Z
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@luna you would've been prosecuted for activities that would be seen as destabilizing the state the same way you would be now.The reality is that GDR was more restrictive in some aspects and more free in others.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDiQnpjvRqEVPrU by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:23:48Z
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@luna meanwhile, you have yet to acknowledge that your lifestyle in capitalist Germany is directly propped up by the exploitation of the developing world that the west thrives on.Countless millions of people in countries that the west subjugates are being brutally exploited for your benefit. And you have to acknowledge the rights of those people that are being sacrificed for your benefit. Their lives have the same value as your own.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDiliZyeit6I7Si by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:25:50Z
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@luna people in the west carry direct responsibility for the actions of the western empire, especially so since you claim to have democracy and freedom. You are directly and personally responsible for all the horror the west perpetrates across the globe by failing to reign in your murderous regime.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDj5ZOAXFsfZyPA by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:32:31Z
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@yogthos sure. but lets not pretend the USSR has not done such things. like afghanistan. or the Baltic states! lets talk about the baltic states and the ppl there.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDjBF354YAGEVFI by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:14:41Z
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@yogthos You do not acknowlegde that it did not work. because GDR and USSR are not a thing anymore. You say China is communism when China is very capitalist.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDjeJJ0KBcPpiYS by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:35:59Z
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@luna we can definitively see that USSR has not done such things. We can see how standard of living in countries like Cuba and Vietnam collapsed after USSR dissolved. If USSR was extractive the way the west is, then the opposite would've happened.Meanwhile, are you seriously suggesting Afghanistan is better off now than it was when there was a pro Soviet government there?And, go look at the situation in Baltic states today. Not a pretty picture.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDk1LvKkwlsc7TE by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:37:42Z
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@yogthos before!! not now!
(DIR) Post #AMKRDkO2Yyu7uFEEpk by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:39:30Z
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@luna once again, quality of life improved across the board after the Soviet revolution from what it was before, and it's not collapsing again under capitalism.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDkixJDdOx70wQy by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:40:22Z
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@yogthos we were talking about afghanistan. and how they left it.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDl26A2wluTyEGu by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:37:13Z
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@luna of course, if you look at what happened in southern republics is far worse. I love how westerners always conveniently focus on the eastern European part of USSR. I guess people in the south don't have blue eyes and blond hair, so they don't count right?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDl3W4m55ysdMTw by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:41:32Z
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@luna how they left it was as a progressive society with human rights. This is what the CIA destroyed in the name of the west.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDldJveillvNxI0 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:42:20Z
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@luna our of curiosity, do you know anything at all about Afghanistan and the fact that CIA started the war there by arming the mujahideen to overthrow the government?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDlzIbwIms5fVY0 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T19:44:16Z
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@luna I also notice that you continue to deflect here and avoiding acknowledging my point.Your lifestyle is directly subsidized by the suffering of the people that the German regime subjugates across the globe. Are their rights not as important or yours?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDmLdGuANzM7LMG by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:45:06Z
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@yogthos no actually you are avoiding my point, because I said i reference mainly the baltics
(DIR) Post #AMKRDmhbxBkP5WOtcG by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:46:48Z
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@yogthos and I already said YES. the western countries do those things and YES it is bad. it is exploitation. I said it many times now.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDn5MWskKHBVrdY by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:47:38Z
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@yogthos and YES western life style is based upon exploitation. My point was, that USSR did not do nothing like that. Yes the west is bad, but you are still gloryfying USSR
(DIR) Post #AMKRDnS3AWtVPY7z04 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T21:02:54Z
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@luna my whole point here has been that USSR has been an improvement for the world over existing conditions that west capitalism has created.That's not glorification, that's just acknowledgement of basic facts that you appear to be incapable off.Nobody is saying USSR didn't have problems or that we can't do better going forward. What's being said it was a huge improvement for the people of the world than what your regime is doing currently.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDnojoB2gXuk6Ma by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T21:39:15Z
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@yogthos my point is: no unfortunately it was not, first and foremost not for many individual ppl that where innocently persecuted.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDoDYJutLmsLv2e by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-06T22:11:17Z
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@luna yes it absolutely was for the majority of the people living there. Unfortunately, people are wrongly prosecuted in every human society, and it's the height of nativity to think that these problems would not arise under anarchism.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDoJDypQe4T0Rsm by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-06T19:45:44Z
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@yogthos twice I said that I wanted to talk about the baltics when you claim USSR did never anything like western empires...
(DIR) Post #AMKRDoawuvbgxRIbVg by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T11:45:49Z
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@yogthos that is so disrespectful towards the tens of thousands of victims. think alone of 16mio ppl not alloed to leave the tiny GDR
(DIR) Post #AMKRDoz3TItCACZr5E by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:02:51Z
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@luna compare that to millions of people suffering in the west, where can they leave. Where can 30 million Americans who don't have enough to eat are supposed to go according to you? https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/31/us/food-insecurity-30-million-census-survey/index.htmlYour perspective is one of utter privilege. You worry about maximizing your personal freedoms while people are literally starving around you.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDpMS4JbXKlWXYG by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:04:52Z
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@yogthos yeah, and the millions of poor sowjets?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDplyXQ1MbvSvKq by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:07:04Z
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@yogthos once again, you are saying one of those systems is good. I am not. I dislike both. but I would NEVER want to live in the GDR like my family had to.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDqBV0WRBt5PJ7Q by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:08:44Z
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@luna once again, I'm saying that one of the systems is a marked improvement over the other and paves a path towards something better.Saying you dislike both is infantile and useless unless you are able to articulate workable alternatives to abolishing the existing system.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDqafUwZR99BPLk by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:11:02Z
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@yogthos I did. anarcho-syndicalsim.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDqzU0gQ6O6nE1o by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:13:06Z
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@luna it's not been shown to be workable, and it has been trampled by other ideologies every time it's been tried.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDrOeV6YLeAZKG8 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:14:32Z
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@yogthos once again, by that definition authoritarian communism has shown to be not workable.cause oppressing ppl leads rightfully so to resistance. And elitarian thinking leads to corruption and more oppression.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDrkzA4PwlR1A4O by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:16:03Z
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@luna expect it has been shown to be workable at scale. It has lifted countless millions out of horrific conditions, provided them with education, food, housing, jobs, and retirement.Evidently you can't appreciate any of that because you have your basic needs met. Yet, for billions of people who do not, this is life changing liberation.There is a reason why anarchism is only popular in affluent western countries.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDsBZZDgW5tSOVk by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:18:03Z
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@yogthos this last sentence is bullshit. and erasing anarchist ppl worldwide. next thing you say is probs "degeneration" right?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDsb62K6LN3OmIK by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:21:40Z
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@luna show me where anarchism is a popular ideology outside the west. Pretty much everywhere where we see effective resistance happening it's done using ML style organization.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDszYZNfQauqJQ8 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:23:29Z
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@yogthos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities
(DIR) Post #AMKRDtQ8yWvzvNHXrU by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:27:45Z
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@luna and none of these experiments managed to achieve any greater liberation for their countries. They simply exist as small scale coping mechanisms within the overarching capitalist framework.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDtpfRdLpCXDve4 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:28:48Z
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@yogthos of course they did for their communities. you are aware that nation-states are fairly new (historically) constructions?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDuGFqmcOWzfA5Q by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:29:49Z
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@luna yeah I get it, that's the anarchist ideology in a nutshell. I got mine and screw everyone else. That's the fundamental difference from communists who want to achieve global liberation of all people from capitalist exploitation.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDuf4MWT3lxGylU by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:34:32Z
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@yogthos and again bullshit and wrong assumptions.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDv7Qf59XBuXcy8 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:35:16Z
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@yogthos I could argue that for you: you likede the USSR and want it back. so you got yours and you dont care about the ppl who didnt.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDvTPLMjYI4pBE8 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:35:58Z
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@luna except that's demonstrably false because USSR spent tons of its resources helping rebuild countries like Vietnam and Cuba. Are you dishonest or ignorant?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDvtdlpiXbR687E by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T13:37:17Z
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@yogthos ??? to wat is that an answer?
(DIR) Post #AMKRDwHOLWiSn6D68W by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T13:45:30Z
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@luna that is an answer to your claim that USSR didn't care about others when it spent much of its resources helping lift others up.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDwgYpwqi39zCMq by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T14:02:47Z
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@yogthos i did not say that about USR, I adressed you. you as you.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDx3xQxZ3Divsps by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T14:29:43Z
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@luna you said that about ML style communists, and USSR was a state built on those principles.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDxTTu3ysUssGcS by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T14:37:54Z
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@yogthos and again same argument in reverse goes then for anarchists. of course anarchism and syndicalism helped ppl.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDxxG7LnfzEo328 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T14:40:54Z
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@luna it has, but it fails to provide a path towards greater liberation of all working people. It ends up being a coping mechanism for existing within the overarching capitalist system.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDyQKNH3JROPGLI by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T14:42:01Z
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@yogthos well authoritarian communism completely fails to provide a path to "liberation" as it is based upon "unfreeness".
(DIR) Post #AMKRDyt2eW1MsRqC6C by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T14:50:34Z
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@luna again, that's demonstrably false. We can see this that this is completely false by looking at what USSR looked like in the 50s compared to what it looked like in the late 80s. It's very clear that society became far more egalitarian and open over that period.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDzIv6IimAhwrR2 by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T18:11:18Z
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@yogthos it's very clear that all ended in a dictatorship. Precisely out of such thinking as that it is okay to forbid ppl to leave and being entitled to their bodies.
(DIR) Post #AMKRDzh1eg0HNTE70a by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T19:33:47Z
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@luna please show me an instance of a dictatorship that democratically dissolves. USSR leaders allowed an orderly transition away from the soviet system. No capitalist state would ever do that. Yet, you call USSR a dictatorship while claiming to have freedom under capitalism.The theme of this discussion has been that you keep making absurd statements, and then pivoting when challenged on them.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE09NxEgknQUlDE by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T19:35:24Z
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@yogthos nowhere I said that there is freedom under capitalism. I just that now there is much more personal freedom than like e.g. in the GDR.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE0XqUIFq1HwIL2 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T20:46:59Z
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@luna we keep going in circles here. As I've repeatedly explained, capitalism is the status quo we have now, ML approach provides a path away from this status quo towards something more humane.If you think this approach is inadequate then provide a workable alternative.Meanwhile, I wonder what personal freedom you imagine people living under bridges and eating out the garbage are enjoying.GDR provided everyone with the necessities of life, your current capitalist regime does not.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE0uB9G7R8YO89I by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T20:49:35Z
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@luna the reason why maximizing personal freedoms is your primary concern is because you have your basic needs met already.For a person who doesn't have their needs met the concern is having enough to eat and having a roof over their head.It's absurd to talk about freedoms in a society that can't guarantee these basic necessities for all.You live off this exploitation and you value your freedom at the cost of the freedoms of those who are exploited by capitalism.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE1JhcMXGPiKVvs by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T20:49:52Z
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@luna if that's your idea of a free society then you can kindly keep it as I find it utterly deplorable.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE1kzysMzmN6JTk by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-07T20:51:03Z
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@yogthos yeah what about personal freedoms in your communism? what about what ppl want to do with their lives, bodies etc
(DIR) Post #AMKRE28kYZMuy2DHV2 by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-07T23:03:46Z
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@luna please point out where I've advocated against having personal freedoms here. In fact, I linked you a paper about personal freedoms increasing in GDR which you conveniently ignored. I've also pointed out that personal freedoms continued to improve throughout the existence of USSR.All you do is just repeat tropes as a form of argument here.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE2Wr6weQAnUX4a by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-08T19:32:38Z
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@yogthos you found it ok/legitimate to forbid ppl to leave for "the greater good"
(DIR) Post #AMKRE2y9TSU9XSGKcS by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-08T19:33:40Z
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@yogthos you also defended that there was no freedom of speech whatsoever
(DIR) Post #AMKRE3Tha9ir7J1WnQ by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-08T19:38:15Z
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@luna claiming that there was no freedom of speech whatsoever is a false statement
(DIR) Post #AMKRE3yXjUOOexS9rs by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-08T19:41:26Z
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@yogthos ok; different approach: no there is way more freedom of speech in the BRD, than GDR: You defended the GDR, with basically no freedom of speech (you had to be verrrryyyyyyyyy careful)
(DIR) Post #AMKRE4Rxy5vc8DDejI by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-08T20:01:52Z
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@luna sure you have more freedom of speech under liberalism, and it comes at the cost of brutal exploitation inherent in the system. You keep arguing that this is a preferable tradeoff and I find that deplorable.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE4uKGec5YAUIvw by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-08T20:04:38Z
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@yogthos brutal exploitatian was also inherent in USSR. already forgot forced labour again? forget that USSR also importet goods? forgot baout GULAGS?
(DIR) Post #AMKRE5Jqjl1upKQgiW by yogthos@mas.to
2022-08-08T20:05:59Z
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@luna USSR abolished gulags, meanwhile US still holds 20% of world's prison population, a ratio higher than USSR ever had in gulags.Meanwhile, the fact that gulags were abolished once again shows that USSR was capable of positive progress. Something you have yet to acknowledge.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE5jjBXjK7aXM3M by straw@socks.pinnoto.org
2022-08-08T20:07:49.905989Z
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@yogthos @luna gulags weren't anything like American prisons bro
(DIR) Post #AMKRE7C7lS2SdwpXxA by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-08T19:34:07Z
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@yogthos and you still try to not address to forbid ppl to study.
(DIR) Post #AMKRE8wxEp5o5TkSaO by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-08T20:05:43Z
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@yogthos and while YES the west like the BRD is exploiting so many countries and ppl, this is NOT directly tied to free speech. you could have free speech and not do the exploitation.
(DIR) Post #AMKRHT0H8U9P9Qt1MW by luna@mastodon.oi7.de
2022-08-08T20:08:32Z
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@straw i am not your "bro". check your patriarchal bias. thx
(DIR) Post #AMKRHTXF9uWQngJLkW by straw@socks.pinnoto.org
2022-08-08T20:08:53.533674Z
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@luna I was replying to yogthos dumbass