Post AJqimKPL0APF5Zae6y by Sallystrange@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by Sallystrange@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #9fujQTthRawUmewPE8 by Gargron@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T13:58:33Z
3 likes, 5 repeats
I'm not happy with how the Wil Wheaton situation was resolved. An admin was overwhelmed with frivolous reports about him and felt forced to exile him. I've said before that I think it sets a dangerous precedent on how a large group of people can mobilize to drive anyone off the fediverse. Mob rule is universally dangerous: Mods and admins must examine evidence and decide based on wrongdoing and danger, and not on how many times someone was reported.
(DIR) Post #AJqhTtAhQUVbS1O2QS by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2022-05-26T16:04:53.313686Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I get the impression mobs don't need to be particularly large as long as they are loud enough š¤·
(DIR) Post #AJqhZNKiiIXwRYgqFU by johnnydoe@queer.af
2018-08-30T14:57:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@gr4yweb @Gargron @wilw@mastodon.cloud honestly? you expect me to believe someone isnāt transphobic just because they say so?
(DIR) Post #AJqhZNs2iPCY6uHSBk by Hyolobrika@mstdn.io
2022-05-26T16:05:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@johnnydoe @gr4yweb @Gargron "You don't have the right to defend yourself. If I accuse you of bigotry, that's what you are"
(DIR) Post #AJqhluVDDVcQn6Zgye by Hyolobrika@mstdn.io
2022-05-26T16:08:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Gargron I don't know the situation, but maybe if he was better educated in how the fediverse worked he would have just moved to an instance that would have welcomed him or at least tolerated him? I'm pretty sure https://mstdn.io and obviously you would have, at least.
(DIR) Post #AJqhuM4ObbWIbg3fvc by clarissawam@mastodon.cloud
2018-08-30T15:52:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@johnnydoe so you seem to be super clued in, why is he a transphobe other than using Randiās block list (which he explained). Cuz I googled it and found nothing else. I did find a thing he did for a trans charity. And someone who roundabout accused him via TBBT, but š¤·āāļø. What the hell am I missing?!
(DIR) Post #AJqhuMNtR77Fa9BFJo by johnnydoe@queer.af
2018-08-30T15:59:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clarissawam are you aware of just how profoundly detrimental said blacklist has been to the trans community?
(DIR) Post #AJqhuMsjaRmn7nbsOG by clarissawam@mastodon.cloud
2018-08-30T16:23:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@johnnydoe but he said he amended it / stopped using it when he realised this. I mean, I guess he could be lying, but when heās otherwise behaved as an ally, why should he? I hate this ānot good enoughā attitude of left / liberals. This tendency to try & catch people @ being imperfect and go āAHA! GOTCHA!ā It is super tiresome & not helpful.
(DIR) Post #AJqhuNEiGjMoDxtQeG by johnnydoe@queer.af
2018-08-30T16:43:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clarissawam if you hate leftist politics this isnāt the social network for you might i suggest counter.social itās a paradise for people like wilw
(DIR) Post #AJqhuNcop6eJQjAgDo by Hyolobrika@mstdn.io
2022-05-26T16:09:37Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@johnnydoe @clarissawam Fediverse is not a leftist social network. It has no global policy mandating leftism. It has no global ToS at all, in fact. And that's the way it should be.
(DIR) Post #AJqhuNzrRR54aBx58a by johnnydoe@queer.af
2018-08-30T16:05:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clarissawam many trans people have began using the fediverse as their primary social networking tool because they believed the anti-terf agenda promoted by its various administrators made it a safe spacenow the administration of its most popular primarily English speaking community defending a major contributor to the oppression that lead them here for the sake of principle without consideration for how this affects the sense of safety in the community
(DIR) Post #AJqiRLff6rQsvSDoQq by gingermilk@pleroma.skyshanty.xyz
2022-05-26T16:15:37.806948Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Hyolobrika @johnnydoe @clarissawam interesting to see how some evolved from "block everyone" to "everyone should be just like me" after years of isolation.
(DIR) Post #AJqimEbAbGJ14X50im by knotlump@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T14:04:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Gargron People with different opinions than mine should never be allowed to speak
(DIR) Post #AJqimFFw9gup6y9ZGS by Sallystrange@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T14:15:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@knotlump People who reduce complex matters of bigotry, power, and social dynamics to "different opinions than mine" should voluntarily abstain from speaking until they figure out how now to be absurdly disingenuously reductive on the subject
(DIR) Post #AJqimFkQKLImdWPume by knotlump@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T14:19:18Z
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@Sallystrange Thanks for helping me make my point
(DIR) Post #AJqimGC4fXQ61HLzsm by Smokinjoe@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T14:41:02Z
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@knotlump @Sallystrange that you're being disingenuous? Because you are.
(DIR) Post #AJqimGdj0jXPP2I4yu by knotlump@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T14:41:49Z
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@Smokinjoe @Sallystrange I should probably be silenced then.
(DIR) Post #AJqimGxZovPwObZvvM by Smokinjoe@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T14:44:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@knotlump @Sallystrange you are quite the crybaby
(DIR) Post #AJqimHFIl1azHZs5YG by knotlump@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T14:47:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Smokinjoe @Sallystrange Excellent name calling. I'm just not cool with totalitarianism. Feel free to block me. I've cried myself to sleep before. I'll live
(DIR) Post #AJqimHnKiUokz7nGb2 by Smokinjoe@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T15:02:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@knotlump @Sallystrange shame you're also not cool with having a discussion in good faith
(DIR) Post #AJqimIDDAHWAHNtvvs by knotlump@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T15:02:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Smokinjoe @Sallystrange Really? I've yet to call either one of you a name
(DIR) Post #AJqimIo4xD0a7j9NOi by Sallystrange@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T16:47:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@knotlump @Smokinjoe Adherence to superficial norms of civility is not the same as engaging in good faith discussion
(DIR) Post #AJqimJDFRd8pNmvTd2 by knotlump@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T16:52:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Sallystrange @Smokinjoe I believe I was engaging in a good faith discussion. I expressed mine points of view and listened to yours. Take care
(DIR) Post #AJqimJjVVgwgzq1EuW by Sallystrange@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T17:00:49Z
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@knotlump @Smokinjoe You repeatedly framed the issue in overly simplified and misleading ways, using vague phrasing to escape accountability for being wrong & inflammatory
(DIR) Post #AJqimK5qAeoI76T4im by knotlump@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T17:02:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Sallystrange @Smokinjoe We are not going to agree.
(DIR) Post #AJqimKPL0APF5Zae6y by Sallystrange@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T17:04:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@knotlump @Smokinjoe Obviously, since you are wrong
(DIR) Post #AJqimKkxhlhgAdhuoi by Hyolobrika@mstdn.io
2022-05-26T16:19:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Sallystrange @knotlump @Smokinjoe lmao
(DIR) Post #AJqiuEST0Q3gxAp41A by biganimetiddies@mastodon.social
2018-08-30T14:05:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Gargron mob rule is what authoritarians call democracy
(DIR) Post #AJqiuEoRghdi3L6cHA by Hyolobrika@mstdn.io
2022-05-26T16:20:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@biganimetiddies @Gargron @trickster (made similar post) democracy is authoritarian compared to anarchy
(DIR) Post #AJqkRdaog0KKPxDkjw by MartinShadok@aleph.land
2018-08-30T14:16:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Irick @Gargron It is not the first time that I noticed here about people complaining that the current system relies heavily on administrators. Maybe we can build tools to discharge administrators from their some charge, if they are willing to. Kind of (local) dictatorship vs democracy: maybe there could be some ways to ask a lot of people from an instance to vote whether they think that a message was acceptable or not. Easier said than done, thoughā¦ š
(DIR) Post #AJqkReGIBnVIUacsO8 by Taris@gulp.cafe
2018-08-31T02:37:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@MartinShadok @Irick @Gargron this would invite mob rule again. š
(DIR) Post #AJqkRepO5JZoFR2u5g by MartinShadok@aleph.land
2018-08-31T08:59:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Taris Probably. My hope is that it would be to a lesser extend: āmob ruleā usually means that the ones that shout the most are heard the most, which is very bad. In a global vote from random users of an instance (chosen randomly and not by volunteering), the noise would fade. I hope.
(DIR) Post #AJqkRfI6MYXrgUTpqa by Taris@gulp.cafe
2018-08-31T10:44:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@MartinShadok this is just not how an informed decision is made š
(DIR) Post #AJqkRfeR1WPSnkvfeq by MartinShadok@aleph.land
2018-08-31T10:47:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Taris This is how juries work in most countries. What is so wrong with this system?
(DIR) Post #AJqkRg17fAYdw7Xn1M by Taris@gulp.cafe
2018-08-31T10:54:38Z
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@MartinShadok It is not. Juries are questioned, screened and selected by both a defense and prosecutor. Then much time is spent by both sides presenting evidence, questioning and cross examining each other. They are given specific instructions by an experienced judge or magistrate on certain things they should and should not consider. Then they collaboratively discus what they should do and rarely all agree.You are describing a bunch of randos voting in a popularity/name recognition poll. š¬
(DIR) Post #AJqkRgR06xG3ENeSMC by MartinShadok@aleph.land
2018-08-31T11:05:38Z
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@Taris Nope. I am not describing random votes. I am describing random voters. This is very different.If enough voters are randomly chosen, this mathematically evens out the noise of the randomness. You can read some thoughts about that here: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2018-07-27.2540.htmlIf you are afraid of the issue of name recognition, you can of course remove from the poll accounts with links with the accounts to be ājudgedā. This is fairly simple to implement (compare to the rest of the proposition).
(DIR) Post #AJqkRgkUwSr0Cqm1kO by Taris@gulp.cafe
2018-08-31T11:19:34Z
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@MartinShadok I think you are over simplifying in favor of mathmatical concepts.People in social contexts or heated emotional situations do not fit into a normally distributed bell curve, and just picking a bunch of random people does not offer Equality or Justice. It's back to the whims of a mob, and just giving them a profile to look at will result in a witch trial in most circumstances.This problem is so hard to overcome because people are at large not rational beings.
(DIR) Post #AJqkRh3zlyRxBJtb8a by MartinShadok@aleph.land
2018-08-31T11:46:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Taris I donāt look for equality or justice. I just look for a system that can discharge moderators in a way that would not particularly change the final decision, assuming that moderators are representative of the people under their instance. With this aim, randomly picking a large enough group of person is a reasonable assumption: the chosen people will sure display similar irrational decisions, but so would moderators. At least, the total amount of time on the question would be higher.
(DIR) Post #AJqkRhTAGOaCRNfhMu by Taris@gulp.cafe
2018-08-31T11:56:39Z
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@MartinShadok no, this is a very dangerous line of thinking. This would put marginalized people back in harms by turning their fate over to an uninterested mass. Seriously, "not interested in equality or justice"? Then the reporting tool becomes a weapon to oppress those that express a differing opinion from the norm. You are over simplifying an immensely complex issue and, it looks like, in the pursuit of a sleek tech solution. These tools have consequences.
(DIR) Post #AJqkRhp8wgADXXxFcu by MartinShadok@aleph.land
2018-08-31T12:47:45Z
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@Taris Wait. I donāt want this to be the norm. I just suggest a solution to the issue that moderators donāt have that much time.Someone who ājudgeā whether a behaviour is abusive by just comparing whether their author has similar opinion than theirs or the normā¦ is just a jerk (if not an highly dangerous person)! This is not how the reporting tool is supposed to workā¦Iām just assuming that people from such instance are not jerks.And anyway: moderators should always have the final word.
(DIR) Post #AJqkRiBTbe1oeoP5RA by Taris@gulp.cafe
2018-08-31T12:58:15Z
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@MartinShadok ok but you do realize that mobs like this are formed by other people in the instance getting swept up in whatever inflamed narrative is being shared, truthful or not. It is highly likely that the voters chosen are part of mob, and those that are not are likely to be highly influenced by the public posts of those who are. There is no room for a rationale discussion there.Having an instance mass vote on a ban is not a workable solution. We need moderators and tools to support them.
(DIR) Post #AJqkRiYAFIAznB1Cng by MartinShadok@aleph.land
2018-08-31T13:05:12Z
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@Taris I think that the part where we strongly disagree is that you consider the mod effect to be due to a large amount of people, whereas I consider the mod effect to be due to a small group of shouting people (something like this: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-07 ). Do you think that this sum up is fair?
(DIR) Post #AJqkRisN2AL6nqTLIO by Taris@gulp.cafe
2018-08-31T13:10:45Z
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@MartinShadok I think it's not up for a group discussion "in the moment". While an issue is on going and the decision on a ban is needed, it needs to be made quickly.A large group discussion on how to handle those issues should be done before or after, and the code of conduct adjusted appropriately.Ultimately, each instance is owned by one entity, the admin, and they can enforce or not enforce a code of conduct as they please. 1/
(DIR) Post #AJqkRjBrrfw3mJauga by Taris@gulp.cafe
2018-08-31T13:14:17Z
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@MartinShadok To leave a problem account allowed to continue to harass or post hurtful content is to allow the problem to grow. If this is not what the users want, they need to leave for another instance and leave the admin to their sandbox. Through each instances enforcement and actions we will see a general shared culture emerge, but within each server it is not a democracy.We have 3 decades of online community management to learn from, we should not have to rehash all of this again.
(DIR) Post #AJqkRjVMhBX0kmiU4m by Hyolobrika@mstdn.io
2022-05-26T16:37:53Z
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@Taris @MartinShadok I don't think that democratic online community management has really been tried. Has it?
(DIR) Post #APoFyqzAtvPQqaANXs by admin@mastodon.tech
2022-11-20T22:59:54.617231Z
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@Gargron , Please will you explain the Wil Wheaton situation for those that missed it? Is this āmob-thinkā still happening today in other situations?
(DIR) Post #APoNC6cGnVlglgidjU by admin@mastodon.tech
2022-11-21T00:20:44.004609Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Did Wil Wheaton ever come back to the Fediverse?