Post AJWdT5Ad6pgKPigTc8 by Earmuffs@bae.st
(DIR) More posts by Earmuffs@bae.st
(DIR) Post #AJViBfniU75hQBWamW by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T13:03:51.502470Z
5 likes, 3 repeats
Nearly every time I try to find information on if sustainable farming has enough yield to feed current population levels, I just find assertions that it does without any evidence. An argument against it I find compelling is it would have to exceed yield of industrial farming. Industrial farming takes enormous amounts of nitrogen which comes from natural gas production. Sustainable agriculture wouldn't use that so where would it come from.I don't know if there's a good counter-argument to this, I'm not an agriculture scientist. I just follow links.
(DIR) Post #AJViWPCzMzpa2gEQ4m by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T13:07:36.750876Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
Some people say it wouldn't require higher yields because we already produce enough food, but for political reasons it doesn't get distributed equitably. I don't know if that would close the gap. Need to see studies.
(DIR) Post #AJVin6AHQXdvtzvN32 by mrmcmayhem@noagendasocial.com
2022-05-16T13:10:37Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon the gov, for example, ear marked 4 million acres to remain unused this year, and we pay taxes toward that end, on top of the insane amount of acreage that already lays unusedimo this just keeps grocery stores and shit fuck boomers in the black when it comes to investmentsbut there are rules of thumb for how much sqft per person you need to sustain a homestead, problem is most people are too lazy or stupid to grow potatoesthe truth is a lot of people need to die
(DIR) Post #AJVitclp75iwlQb3ei by newt@stereophonic.space
2022-05-16T13:11:45.634520Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon the air is almost 80% nitrogen :comfyderp:I'm pretty sure there are ways to bind it down into fertilizer, even if it's a tad bit more expensive (now) than using byproducts of gas industry.
(DIR) Post #AJVjgQ9qnLLTpw6Sa8 by moth_ball@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T13:20:38.168877Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @Moon It's going to take a while, since the triple bond in the nitrogen molecules is not trivial to break down, let alone to bind into something else. I've thought similiar thoughts regarding sea water conversion into drinking water. What the hell are they even doing in California?
(DIR) Post #AJVjpfVz4EW64Vrj8K by teknomunk@pl.polaris-1.work
2022-05-16T13:21:38.346323Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@newt @Moon Before the Haber process that is currently used to fix nitrogen (using hydrogen from steam reforming of natural gas) there were a couple of industrial processes for fixing nitrogen in addition to non-industrial methods.The Birkeland-Eyde process used an electric arc to create nitrates for fertilizer, using massive amounts of electricity.The Frank-Caro process went thru calcium cyanamide and required an electeic arc furnace to produce the precusror calcium carbide. Also used large amounts of electricity.Non-industrial methods are nitrogen fixing plants (beans, peanuts, etc.) and nutrient cycling (urine and manure).
(DIR) Post #AJVjqMBwOd2AQnopMW by p@raru.re
2022-05-16T13:22:24Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
> I'm pretty sure there are ways to bind it down into fertilizerI think it's typically done by making ammonia, which requires high pressures and so is not so simple@newt @Moon @moth_ball @Moon @newt
(DIR) Post #AJVjqOZlX1HPpGysm8 by moth_ball@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T13:22:26.332095Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon >political reasons it doesn't get distributed equitablyPost-scarcity aside, this is impossible with any and all resources.
(DIR) Post #AJVk2ZmdghBY3poKA4 by Chk991@outerheaven.club
2022-05-16T13:23:31.882336Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon Are you looking for research documents? I haven't studied this issue in particular though my degree is related to agriculture. I could ask my professor what he thinks but as far as I know sustainable farming isn't happening for the exact reason you're saying. I do know people are researching alternatives that involve nano-technology for instance, but I don't know of anything that's in real use nowadays.
(DIR) Post #AJVk2a2ajNwgrJH41g by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T13:24:37.324014Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Chk991 yeah I'm interested in anything that addresses this, I have opinions but I'll change my mind if evidence suggests it.
(DIR) Post #AJVkhxCtVLGUa2p0hE by Chk991@outerheaven.club
2022-05-16T13:26:20.272478Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon I'll try finding some reviews later because this also interests me. I'll just add that according to one review I read so far >Some people say it wouldn't require higher yields because we already produce enough food,I think this is false because of future projections."According to the Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO), the world's population is projected to reach 10 billion by 2050 and a demand of an additional 50% food necessities is also predicted to be increased especially among low-income countries (Calicioglu et al., 2019). "
(DIR) Post #AJVkoeHWGcYBuZB41Q by Ricotta@yggdrasil.social
2022-05-16T13:33:16.236358Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon Which populations are you including?
(DIR) Post #AJVlbTQ1RYwUPVR61o by shmibs@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu
2022-05-16T13:42:05.791653Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon from have seen, seems "permaculture" labelled stuff is basically all fake, and "sustainable farming" is the same thing but branded for not-so-hippiesto improve farming mess situation the biggest step possible would be stop-eating-animals, as their animal feed is where most crops go, and after that change everyone's eating habits, so don't have huge amounts food thrown away. mentioning either becomes taboo, though, so people invent magical thinking solutions insteadand yeh, used to be everyone's poop was precious, regulated resource to mitigate soil depletionlots of room for tech-changes too, butmaybe should go look for proper sources too, though, un; just not any directly to hand
(DIR) Post #AJVliRNpPRsG7njRaK by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T13:43:24.299543Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shmibs > the biggest step possible would be stop-eating-animalsyeah unfortunately.
(DIR) Post #AJVo9uaz6hMkS573OC by laconicif@thebag.social
2022-05-16T14:10:46.325526Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
> Sustainable agriculture wouldn't use that so where would it come fromI dont actually know what I'm talking about (but I do a little) but my understanding is that when done properly, most of the waste in farming can be mulched to regenerate the top soil, and especially with "no dig" farming the amount of artificially added fertilizer needed is reduced.Corporate farming isnt careful and is about maximizing economies of scale, so in that process it works better to dump fertilizer on top of depleted soil
(DIR) Post #AJVonZYsjJmKne2b0S by Jackuu@beefyboys.win
2022-05-16T14:17:56.788572Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
The amount of compost that can be created with shredded cardboard, kitchen scraps and fallen leaves is insane, and thats just my own personal pile. It really adds a lot of soil over the years, to the point where it needs to be hauled away at some point. Theres no reason government backed organized composting couldn't at least put a dent in depleted soil, even if yields aren't as much as chemical fertilizer its a lot more sustainable in the long run
(DIR) Post #AJVotnpCc2Bim2e52G by Chk991@outerheaven.club
2022-05-16T13:57:27.980045Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shmibs @Moon Just my 2 cents but if everyone stopped eating meat for one or two days a week that already would be a huge difference. But yeah it's something that's not as easy to bring up I guess.
(DIR) Post #AJVqGpoRUK6tYMpumu by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2022-05-16T14:34:26.172616Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
So I don't think the same gross output can be expected, but I think smaller farms who service a localized area will produce less waste so it may be a wash.As far as nitrogen goes there are a few solutions. Chicken manure is really high in nitrogen. Nitrogen fixing plants like clover or alfalfa will pull nitrogen from the air and make it available in the soil. Finished compost is usually well tuned for plant growth.
(DIR) Post #AJVqLqNwmohumFpeAS by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T14:35:20.003022Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere local farming can't service all populations
(DIR) Post #AJVqY6Tulb3kAqT8z2 by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2022-05-16T14:37:33.329390Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
I think shipping food all over the place leads to a lot of waste. Decentralizing the supply chain would reduce that waste.
(DIR) Post #AJVqgekZEzISlyKvWS by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-05-16T14:39:05.170462Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shmibs @Moon someone was trying to work out food sterilization with lasers or something.i might tentatively support food irradiation if 3 generations of test animals ate it and showed zero signs of change.
(DIR) Post #AJVqgh3QfpZZv3B1CS by Dave@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T14:39:07.074265Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon Yeah you're not gonna get that info, look into deforestation which is effect of farming large areas of land. everyone needs to eat XD!
(DIR) Post #AJVqjlNX3KY2CQ2kue by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T14:39:40.192194Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere it does but places like western Africa and India need to import
(DIR) Post #AJVqnv50vR2BRhMbrs by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2022-05-16T14:40:24.931668Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
Maybe regional is a better description of what I mean. I don't mean you need to be able to walk to the farm, but food should be grown as much as possible close to where it will be consumed.
(DIR) Post #AJVr2MFEiw0Lka1uYi by Dave@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T14:43:02.115354Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @thatguyoverthere maybe if they could terraform they wouldn't have such problems, but Africans prefer short term deforestation profits over long term terraforming projects to return desert to arable land.
(DIR) Post #AJVr46EFF3NoemOe0W by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2022-05-16T14:43:20.024377Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Yeah I wonder how much it's required vs how much it's been implied that it's required. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_greening
(DIR) Post #AJVrUsjVWijWcRn3Ca by Berglander@nicecrew.digital
2022-05-16T14:46:59.833733Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
The amount of organic material to provide the same amount of nutrients to the soil that the chemical fertilizers do is something like 30:1.However, the sustainable aspect of it and the regeneration of topsoil is literally priceless.
(DIR) Post #AJVrVohO0lV0OfFAwq by EvilSandmich@poa.st
2022-05-16T14:43:40.372690Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@teknomunk @newt @Moon Farm across the street uses poop from their cows to fertilize the hay that they feed the cows; cycle of life and all that...
(DIR) Post #AJVrWOfAIV73wCTuU4 by kakkerel@freespeechextremist.com
2022-05-16T14:48:28.174946Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere @Moon There are striking inefficiencies associated with the logistical network that underlies industrial agriculture which necessitate the development of industrial agricultural efficiencies that are more or less frankenfoods.Meat grown in a vat. The fucked up chickens we eat. Whatever happened to corn. These are necessary precisely because of the industrial nature of our agricultural industry. If people want to eat real food that's good for them, it will have to be grown close to home.
(DIR) Post #AJVs1KVvlzMu2yucNM by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2022-05-16T14:54:02.648283Z
5 likes, 1 repeats
Yeah I think the breakdowns in the supply chain we see today are a perfect example of reasons to avoid needless dependencies. I don't think we need to use petroleum for our nitrogen. I think the way we've been farming at massive scale has never been sustainable. Each year more and more organic material is lost when the fields are tilled, and then industrial biproducts are used to replace some of nutrients that would normally be available for our food. Once a farm is worked to death they sell it off to a developer and we build shabby houses where food once grew.
(DIR) Post #AJVsK8SinzcOAgNWFs by Dave@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T14:57:27.187877Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kakkerel @thatguyoverthere @Moon >whatever happened to cornshitty crops like corn are grown off season when a farmer isn't able to plant his desired crop, resulting in an undeveloped product nutrition and taste wise but almost physically indistinguishable from quality corn grown in season and on purpose
(DIR) Post #AJVsQ3Jsq1c5xY48vo by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2022-05-16T14:58:30.503230Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
We also subsidize corn for fuel
(DIR) Post #AJVsYoG6CiE9r3THv6 by Dave@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T15:00:06.371727Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thatguyoverthere @kakkerel @Moon right but there are grades of corn for>human>animal>machineconsumptionand then there are vastly different quality corn grown for humans. the corn husk goes into making doritos and corn-husk chips.
(DIR) Post #AJVtINVM0TzmCRKrPE by teknomunk@pl.polaris-1.work
2022-05-16T15:07:46.783821Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@EvilSandmich @Moon @newt It is how things have been done up until artificial fertilizers became available with the industrial revolution. The old ways didn't just magically stopped working.
(DIR) Post #AJWYT5mgKNvqXwfTWK by Romanji@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-16T22:49:40.923128Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon it would be enough if you eat the bugs bigot
(DIR) Post #AJWcLpIzb4x3EBZWUa by mangeurdenuage@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T23:33:10.547884Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon It's not feasible in current time due to the state of the soil, nitrogen is partly made by the microlife of the soil, the current state of the microlife is incredibely weak due to synthethic fertlizers, not because it directly damages the said micro life, but because the plants normally exchange it's photosynthesis results it produces in it's rhizosphere with that microlife, since it has food directly available via the synthetic ones it doesn't stimulates/attract that micro life thus it doesn't multiply and it does so because the food/minerals that plants absorb are fixed by the said microlife.More than even if the soil wasn't ravaged, the soil itself can't replicate the exact amount of nitrogen because the soil doesn't produces as much of it.But there are a number of ways to increase these number without having to use synthetic fertilizers.To get to that it's basically an association of good methods/practices.-Mulching (straws/wood)-Worm composting/worm tea-Compost-Compost tea-Mineral extractions/amendments-Electro-culture (experimental, basically making the soil act like an antenna/conductive via specific minerals like basalt or granit)-Using human feces/waste as Justus von Liebig suggested after his pioneer work on synthetic fertilizersAll of these method can be "industrialized" made at greater scale, but it won't because it cost a bit more than just using petrol.So is it possible, yes but it's not instantaneous, it will requires years or a decade for a single ravaged land to be potent again.
(DIR) Post #AJWchgAgEoQ5Gn6W9o by orekix@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T23:37:08.056436Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mangeurdenuage @Moon just colonize space or something
(DIR) Post #AJWdCKFfmfMOGU3Kj2 by mangeurdenuage@shitposter.club
2022-05-16T23:42:40.513735Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@orekix @Moon Considering our symbiotic link with bacteria and that all biodome experiments have failed, this is not possible.
(DIR) Post #AJWdT5Ad6pgKPigTc8 by Earmuffs@bae.st
2022-05-16T23:45:42.454480Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon I think it depends, I live in a country that has sustained itself exporting food for at least two centuries, yet due to political reasons we experience food shortages constantly same with energyBut there are places that just can't sustain considerable human life, like islands, Africa or NK, but I think that this isn't an issue that permeates the earth, nor I think that it couldn't be solved with our technical knowledge nowMost if not all food shortages are made up imo, issues forced on the people by foreign (((hands)))